Messiah -- D1?

[D3soccerwatcher]

Interesting discussion.  A few comments...

All D3 schools have the same high school players available to them.  The opportunity for recruits is equal among all D3 schools.  Recruiting is hard work.  Some schools simply aren't willing to, or are not set up to, put in the grueling effort to get there.

The numbers don't seem to add up.  Messiah placed only 4 players on the Mid-Atlantic All-Region team in 2013.  If their "entire roster" is D1 players, they should easily place many more players on the all-region team.

Certainly Messiah must have an excellent Sports Information Director/PR Director, but perhaps we shouldn't judge the quality of their recruits and their program by a few pictures and some very well written paragraphs on their website.

Maybe there is something else going on there.  Different year-round training, different playing philosophy, different coaching leadership, different overall environment - it simply can't all be recruiting.  Watch them play and I think we could probably see something different.  I think we have to give the coaching staff, and the overall program more credit for their success then just to say "oh, they recruit better then everyone else".

[LaPaz]

They have a clear #1 advantage.............There are no D1 christian schools that support soccer like this.

[jknezek]

They have a clear #1 advantage.............There are no D1 christian schools that support soccer like this.

Never thought of that. So many good d1 Catholic schools but not Christian. Best I could think of was Elon and they aren't really Christian anymore. Interesting point. +k

[KnightFalcon]

I think SMU, Liberty, Houston Baptist come to mind as good D1 alternatives ... particularly SMU. Not to mention many more in NAIA. So there are good scholarship opportunities out there.

[D3soccerwatcher]

LaPaz - Just want to make sure I understand your logic.  I have not seen any research on this but I've got to believe that fewer than 10% of recruits are actually willing to go to a conservative Christian school with strict rules like Messiah.  So having only 10% of available recruits to choose from somehow gives Messiah an unfair advantage?  That must be "new math" because I can't make that math work.

[PaulNewman]

D3Soccerwatcher, I can't follow YOUR logic.  Yes, they also have great coaching, great facilities, great tradition and team chemistry, etc, but they ALSO have great soccer players.  They can't make their whole team All-Americans, but they've had a run on national POYs as a ton of kids who play PDL and for clubs like the Charlotte Eagles.  The press releases don't lie either.  They have top-notch talent for D3, and their 2nd 11 likely would be a top 10 or top 5 team nationally too.

KnightFalcon, I can't think of a school more different from Messiah than SMU.  SMU doesn't come to mind for me as a religious school.  One of the richest, preppiest, and frat-oriented schools in the country.

LaPaz is correct.  Messiah has an enormous recruiting advantage because of its orientation (and of course combined with its tradition and success).  If we accept the 10% number, and also assert that a certain percentage of D1 prospects are drawn to Messiah because of its orientation and tradition, then how many interested recruits do you need?  If you get basically your pick of the litter out of the 10% then that likely still puts you way ahead of every other D3.

[D3soccerwatcher]

I agree Messiah has numerous great soccer players - I don't think anyone disagrees with that.  But where I take issue is with your conjecture that they somehow have an unfair recruiting advantage.  You said..."Messiah has an enormous recruiting advantage because of its orientation".  By orientation you mean the fact that they are a Christian/religious/faith-based college.  Now let's all agree that's there's nothing wrong with that.  But your assertion is that it gives them a significant recruiting advantage because there aren't many other options for Christian recruits to play college soccer so they "are drawn to Messiah because of its orientation...".  Hmmm.  Below is a PARTIAL list of Christian/religious/faith-based college soccer programs at all collegiate levels that a I found with a quick search on the internet.  The options for recruits looking for a soccer program at this type of school are staggering - with substantial opportunities for scholarships.  Please explain how Messiah is unique in its "orientation" on this list.  (And I agree SMU does not belong on this list).

DIVISION 1 (Scholarships)
Liberty (SoCon)
Houston Baptist (WAC)
Oral Roberts (Southland)
Gardner-Webb University (Big South)
Campbell University (Big South)
Presbyterian University (Big South)
Lipscomb University (Atlantic Sun)

DIVISION 2 (Scholarships)
Carson Newman
Cedarville University
Palm Beach Atlantic
Anderson University
Mars Hill University
Azusa Pacific University
Malone University
Seattle Pacific University
Milligan College
Lee University
Dallas Baptist University

NAIA (Scholarships)
John Brown University
Oklahoma Wesleyan University
Dordt College
MidAmerica Nazarene
Martin Methodist
Indiana Wesleyan University
Taylor University
Bryan College
Spring Arbor University
Trevecca Nazarene University
Westmont College
Asbury University
Judson University
Biola University

DIVISION 3
Messiah College
Wheaton College (IL)
Houghton College
Gordon College
Geneva College
Eastern Mennonite University
Grove City College
Eastern University (Phila)
Hope College
Calvin College
Berry College
Bethel University
George Fox University
Greenville College
University of Mary Hardin-Baylor

[jknezek]

The question wasn't just are there scholarship christian colleges, the question was are there other schools with a focus on soccer. Just judging by the records of the teams you mentioned, none of the D1 schools will have the "we compete for championships" hook that Messiah has. Yes, you can go to these schools and get a partial scholarship. But they are mediocre soccer schools, something Messiah is NOT.

DIVISION 1 (Scholarships)
Liberty (SoCon)   5-5, 11-9
Houston Baptist (WAC) 4-4-2, 9-7-2
Oral Roberts (Southland) 8-9-4
Gardner-Webb University (Big South) 6-4, 9-8-1
Campbell University (Big South) 5-10-4, 5-4-1
Presbyterian University (Big South) 3-15
Lipscomb University (Atlantic Sun)  11-9-2

Personally I don't think partial scholarships at D2 schools are all that much better than financial aid at D3s, but I will say some of these schools at least look like contenders. Of course, some of these are NCCAA, not NCAA, and that is a whole different, and lower, level of competition. Plus I got bored about half way through...
DIVISION 2 (Scholarships)
Carson Newman 16-6-1, 8-3
Cedarville University 13-3-4, 6-1-1
Palm Beach Atlantic 10-3-2
Anderson University 12-7-3, 4-5-2
Mars Hill University 7-10, 6-5
Azusa Pacific University
Malone University
Seattle Pacific University
Milligan College
Lee University
Dallas Baptist University

NAIA (Scholarships)
John Brown University
Oklahoma Wesleyan University
Dordt College
MidAmerica Nazarene
Martin Methodist
Indiana Wesleyan University
Taylor University
Bryan College
Spring Arbor University
Trevecca Nazarene University
Westmont College
Asbury University
Judson University
Biola University

DIVISION 3
Messiah College
Wheaton College (IL)
Houghton College
Gordon College
Geneva College
Eastern Mennonite University
Grove City College
Eastern University (Phila)
Hope College
Calvin College
Berry College
Bethel University
George Fox University
Greenville College
University of Mary Hardin-Baylor
[/quote]

[PaulNewman]

Your list is misleading too.  The only D1 you listed that I would think of as having a serious and dominant religious orientation is Liberty.  Certainly not Campbell, Presbyterian (despite the name) or Gardner Webb.

[jknezek]

Your list is misleading too.  The only D1 you listed that I would think of as having a serious and dominant religious orientation is Liberty.  Certainly not Campbell, Presbyterian (despite the name) or Gardner Webb.

Not my list. I took it from the poster above. I just assumed they were Christian schools. I don't have any knowledge of how true that is.

[PaulNewman]

Understood.  And I forgot Oral Roberts which would count too.

[augie77]

Understood.  And I forgot Oral Roberts which would count too.

Lipscomb is certainly serious about its Christian orientation as well.

[KnightFalcon]

D3Soccerwatcher, I can't follow YOUR logic.  Yes, they also have great coaching, great facilities, great tradition and team chemistry, etc, but they ALSO have great soccer players.  They can't make their whole team All-Americans, but they've had a run on national POYs as a ton of kids who play PDL and for clubs like the Charlotte Eagles.  The press releases don't lie either.  They have top-notch talent for D3, and their 2nd 11 likely would be a top 10 or top 5 team nationally too.

KnightFalcon, I can't think of a school more different from Messiah than SMU.  SMU doesn't come to mind for me as a religious school.  One of the richest, preppiest, and frat-oriented schools in the country.

LaPaz is correct.  Messiah has an enormous recruiting advantage because of its orientation (and of course combined with its tradition and success).  If we accept the 10% number, and also assert that a certain percentage of D1 prospects are drawn to Messiah because of its orientation and tradition, then how many interested recruits do you need?  If you get basically your pick of the litter out of the 10% then that likely still puts you way ahead of every other D3.

I question whether they are getting their "pick of the litter" ... Look at where the majority of their players come from. Looking at their roster, 90% are from the mid-Atlantic region. So at best they are getting their share of players from their region. In contrast, Wheaton (IL) pulls from across the country.

[D3soccerwatcher]

Your list is misleading too.  The only D1 you listed that I would think of as having a serious and dominant religious orientation is Liberty.  Certainly not Campbell, Presbyterian (despite the name) or Gardner Webb.

You know your argument about Messiah having some sort of unfair recruiting advantage because of it's Christian orientation is weak when all you can do is falsely call the factual information I presented "misleading".  And further, provide only personal conjecture and opinion about just three of the four dozen schools on the list as "certainly" not having a religious orientation.  And still further, never even attempt to answer my question which was...given this vast list of Christian oriented college soccer programs - how does Messiah's Christian orientation make them unique and give them an unfair recruiting advantage?

All the schools I listed have a Christian/religious/faith-based orientation.  I have no reason to defend the three schools you take exception with as being religiously oriented, but to defend my own sincerity I will do so.  Then I will get back to addressing your opinion on Messiah soccer recruiting in my next post.

Here are the facts...

Gardner Webb
The very first thing you read on the home page of their website...
"Gardner-Webb University is a liberal arts, Christian college nestled in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains. At Gardner-Webb, we seek a higher ground in higher education – one that embraces faith and intellectual freedom, balances conviction with compassion, and inspires in students a love of learning, service and leadership."

Campbell University
Here is the first line from the Welcome Letter on their website from the President of the University... "I am pleased to welcome you to Campbell University - A place where faith, learning and service excel." Notice he listed faith first, even before learning.  It's your opinion versus the actual words of the President.  I'm going with the Pres.

Presbyterian
Here are the words lifted right from their mission statement...
"-To acquaint students with the teachings and values of the Christian faith"
"-To help students develop moral and ethical commitments, including service to others"

[D3soccerwatcher]

D3Soccerwatcher, I can't follow YOUR logic.  Yes, they also have great coaching, great facilities, great tradition and team chemistry, etc, but they ALSO have great soccer players.  They can't make their whole team All-Americans, but they've had a run on national POYs as a ton of kids who play PDL and for clubs like the Charlotte Eagles.  The press releases don't lie either.  They have top-notch talent for D3, and their 2nd 11 likely would be a top 10 or top 5 team nationally too.

KnightFalcon, I can't think of a school more different from Messiah than SMU.  SMU doesn't come to mind for me as a religious school.  One of the richest, preppiest, and frat-oriented schools in the country.

LaPaz is correct.  Messiah has an enormous recruiting advantage because of its orientation (and of course combined with its tradition and success).  If we accept the 10% number, and also assert that a certain percentage of D1 prospects are drawn to Messiah because of its orientation and tradition, then how many interested recruits do you need?  If you get basically your pick of the litter out of the 10% then that likely still puts you way ahead of every other D3.

I question whether they are getting their "pick of the litter" ... Look at where the majority of their players come from. Looking at their roster, 90% are from the mid-Atlantic region. So at best they are getting their share of players from their region. In contrast, Wheaton (IL) pulls from across the country.

Very good point...based on facts.