Messiah -- D1?

[PaulNewman]

So their dominance is due to NOT having better players?  All due to intangibles?  Just superior coaching and commitment to everyone else even though there are some are very fine coaches and proud programs out there.  Just watch them versus other D3s.  They look like superior players from my eye test.

We can argue all day, but there is a difference in degree in terms of Christian immersion between schools like Messiah, Wheaton, Calvin, Liberty, etc and schools that identify as having some Christian roots and some ties to the Christian faith.  A lot of LACs in particular used to have a tie to some religious affiliation and that is either gone completely (in a formal sense) or very loose at this point.  Davidson would be a great example, a school that even when it did highlight its tradition with Presbyterian roots NEVER came close to being a school like a Messiah or Wheaton.  Maybe we are talking semantics here, but at least in my mind there are huge differences.   

[KnightFalcon]

I hear what you are saying - I just think you are overplaying any supposed advantage. Not sure how much you have seen Messiah play or what teams you follow, but I wonder if players from Loras, Williams or Ohio Wesleyan would say they played against athletes superior to themselves when they played Messiah - I'm thinking they would not.

[PaulNewman]

Maybe, but I think, at least in the case of Williams, they would acknowledge that Messiah (as a whole) has more talented soccer players.  I guess whether they are better athletes could be argued.  I don't know if there is another school besides Loras that can challenge in terms of the depth of Messiah, and even with Loras it's a stretch since Loras is still looking for its first title.  Messiah has won 9 or 10 out of the last 11 titles, no?  Not easy in a sport like soccer where a bounce of the ball can yield a loss in a one and done tournament even when possession might be 75/25 or more the other way.  I can't imagine there have been many games in the past 5 years where Messiah didn't have a head-to-head advantage for at least 8-9 of the 11 positions on the field.  Bottom line for me -- Messiah's players are really, really good.  Wheaton, Calvin and Hope all have very strong D3 programs but I think we can agree that the Messiah is the premier program in D3 for Christian soccer players.

[D3soccerwatcher]

A college's Christian orientation is part of it's DNA.  It's not anything they have worked for or earned...it's simply who they are.  This DNA does not make them better recruiters or give them some unfair advantage in sports.  If that were the case then Wheaton, Calvin, Liberty and others would all be at the top every year and they are not.  With so many Christian oriented college soccer programs in the country it can't be that Messiah is the only single program that benefits from it.

Does Messiah have an advantage when it comes to recruiting.  YES.  But that advantage has been fairly earned.  It's been earned by meticulously building a powerful program over the past 30+ years.  It's been perpetuated by giving the reigns of the program to Head Coaches who were former Messiah players.  Each coach was mentored as an assistant first and understood the program and continued to build it.  The continuity there over the past 30+ has been amazing.  Through all the years the program kept its laser focus on excellence and doing the right things, the right way, all the time - no exceptions - ever.  You can read about all this in the book "The Messiah Method - The Seven Disciplines of the Winningest College Soccer Program in America" by Michael Zigarelli.  It gives an insiders look into some of the ingredients of the secret sauce at Messiah.

As Messiah continued to build their program, their success attracted better players and that has snowballed to where they are today.  Hats off to Messiah.  They have earned it...FAIRLY.  So yes Messiah recruits very good players.  But I think most Messiah watchers would say that putting these very good recruits through the Messiah system helps turn them into great players.  Hats off to the coaches and the strength of the program and system it promotes.

Do I have a son in college right now?  YES.  He goes to one of those schools that's been beat by Messiah. I admire Messiah for what they have done and simply acknowledge that the soccer program there (both men's and women's) just oozes excellence.  From the way they carry themselves off the field, to their play on the pitch - it's something to behold.  Everyone from the starters to the last player off the bench are on the exactly the same page - so very organized.  Excellence on and off the field breeds excellence in recruiting too. THEY HAVE EARNED IT -- FAIRLY!

The question is...will they be able to continue stay on top?  I think they are going to be around for a while...but time will tell.   And certainly there are excellent D3 teams (with great players) knocking at the door.

So I look forward to D3Soccer in 2014.  And I will acknowledge and appreciate excellence in soccer...wherever it comes from.

[PaulNewman]

Well maybe you have identified the rub.  I didn't mean to imply that Messiah has done anything unfairly.  If you read through the whole thread I think you will see that I praised all of the attributes of the program that you note, and I described them as a joy to watch because they play the right way.  I admire their excellence, which of course is the only reason one can wonder about how they would fare in D1.  I have watched them play and they handle themselves on the pitch with great character while still showing great team spirit and competitiveness.  I don't see the idea of them earning their success fairly as incompatible with the idea that they now have a significant advantage.  In my view both can be true.  I can't imagine that another D3 had as strong of a recruiting year as Messiah (at least on paper).  We can all probably agree that Messiah is extremely difficult to beat, and other than the percentages which would suggest a school will eventually lose once in a while if even by fluke there is no reason not to pick them as heavy favorites again in 2014.

[PaulNewman]

I would characterize our other disagreement as mostly attributable to a difference between colleges with Christian affiliations and colleges that are deeply evangelical in nature.  I don't think there are a large number of the latter, and I still would claim there is something to the fact that Messiah, Wheaton, Calvin and Hope all have had very successful D3 programs, with the first two in the top 5 and the first 3 in  at least the top 10.  Messiah, in addition to everything you noted, also enjoys some geographic advantage compared to the other 3 insofar as the other 3 are more likely to be competing against each other more often in terms of recruiting because of regional proximity.

[lastguyoffthebench]

when you have a program that has been incredibly successful like Messiah, especially in a weak conference... they clearly have a shot at the title every single year.   When you can afford to expend your starters to only play 50-60 min a game during the regular season, that definitely helps for a national championship run (especially as a host during early rounds).   

Messiah could possibly win another 3 titles over the next 10 years...    and to say that is crazy,  but it could very well happen.   And as you read this... if you thought otherwise, it just goes to show the power they have.

[PaulNewman]

"We whole-heartedly believe that we are a Division I soccer program participating at a Division III school."

Interesting quote from Coach Rothert at Loras in context of this discussion.

[MidwestAficionado]

"We whole-heartedly believe that we are a Division I soccer program participating at a Division III school."

Interesting quote from Coach Rothert at Loras in context of this discussion.

Division I NCAA Tournament has a roster limit of 21 players, might hurt their chances

[PickettStreetParty]

Im pretty sure Loras beat Drake, the year after drake went to the elite 8. There is no doubt that the top division III teams can compete with the division I programs. We should not be comparing division I basketball and football with division I soccer in terms of talent level. Every school has a basketball team, but not every school at the division I level has a soccer team so the gap is narrowed between divisions. 

[MidwestAficionado]

Im pretty sure Loras beat Drake, the year after drake went to the elite 8. There is no doubt that the top division III teams can compete with the division I programs. We should not be comparing division I basketball and football with division I soccer in terms of talent level. Every school has a basketball team, but not every school at the division I level has a soccer team so the gap is narrowed between divisions.

Yes Loras beat Drake in a preseason match in 2010. Drake went 8-8-2 that year and lost in the quarterfinals of the MVC tournament.

We also should not be putting too much stock into a preseason match against a completely different team a season removed from success...

[lastguyoffthebench]

No way, really???  They beat Drake in 2010?    That's like saying, "hey Rutgers-Camden tied Messiah in 2010 preseason... a team that is better than Drake"   


Let's see how they do against 8-8-4 2013 Drake in 2014 preseason...

[PickettStreetParty]

I think that was just backing up Coach Rothert's statement showing that he believes they can compete at that level. Not trying to step on any toes here

[D3soccerwatcher]

Check out this highlight video posted by Messiah.  Their commitment to quality play and the positive energy and enthusiasm they display is amazing...it just oozes out of them.  Also listen to the background music they selected,  I think it seems to reflect them well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcWu6yFeY_M

[PaulNewman]

D3SW, I'm putting this response here so that we aren't talking about non-NESCAC things on the NESCAC thread.

You seem to like presenting some very limited data to maintain your points.  Yes 7-2 on SOG in the Messiah-Lycoming game but 32-2 overall.  Lycoming had 2 total shots total all game and reportedly played with 10 men behind the ball in Messiah's final 3rd.  Is that what you mean by "figuring out how to play Messiah"?