Liberty League

[deutschfan]

Big game today Saints fans.

[Mr.Right]

I would say a big game for RPI as well. I would think a Win would get them ranked and SLU just neds league Wins right now. The Hobart match to me as well is big because this is where Hobart sometimes tends to crash and burn just when everything is looking REALLY good.

[Saint of Old]

Frustrating to watch this type of soccer from SLU.
Still dont get why the goal keeper always has more touches and time inpossesion than the center mid.

PLAY FORWARD SAINTS.
PLAY THE BALL FORWARD!!!!

[stlawus]

Even though it's harsh, it has to be said.  Toshack is clueless. 

[stlawus]

SLU had the ball in RPI's half, then played 3 passes back to the keeper who then kicked the ball right at the RPI striker leading to a goal.    Tell what the definition of insanity is again?

[deutschfan]

Woofers 1, Union 0

[Saint of Old]

Even though it's harsh, it has to be said.  Toshack is clueless.

The team will finish with a sub .500 record for the first time in a Quarter Century.
The job of a soccer coach is extremely hard.
That is why great coaches who have won championships like Durocher:
1. Listen to his former players when they offer good recruits.
2. Nurture pipelines that quality players come from and not ignore them.
3. develop a bench so that even when good players graduate you are not starting from scratch and rebuilding, but instead can reload.
4. Understand that when you are starting players for 2 1/2 years who are simply not meeting the required standard it may be time to try someone else in that spot.

This season is done, Many people who are observant knew this from the first game of the year.
The question is will anything change in Canton as far as actually listening to former players or bringing back things that worked for the program in the past, or will the Saints go the way of Bethany and Middlebury.
Former champions who no longer seriously compete on the national or even regional stage.
Only time will tell.

It is a lot easier to talk smack from a keyboard than to coach a top program, but I simply for the life of me cannot understand why any coach would attempt to totally change a program that was a national power annually competing for a championship.

Many people were not too sure about the change to playing style or training methods, but were willing to stay quiet and continue with support as long as the results were positive.
These results are not positive.

In the last two games SLU has been out shot and out played by Clarkson and RPI.
Watching the games, I wonder if these players have ever played together before.
There is no rhythm, no communication, no leadership and players seem to think that 10 back passes will equal a goal.

The passing and the program are going in one direction BACKWARDS.
I am amazed that no one else seems to see or realize this.

On a separate and more positive note.
Good for RPI!
Coach Clinton is absolute class.
He has painstakingly built a quality program that always competes year in year out whatever the talent base is.
He is a quality coach who inspires his team.

RPI will get in
Hobart will get in
Ithaca will get in
So will 3 other teams, and I dont think SLU will be among them.

This is bad, bad soccer, negative soccer... back passing soccer constantly playing through your goalie is a recipe for disaster.
The kid should concentrate on giving up 14 goals in 8 games as opposed to trying to be Messi from the GK position!
What else can I say... without expectation there is no disappointment.

I cannot watch this anymore.

[stlawus]

You're quite correct that it's easy to criticize from the position of internet spectator.   We have no idea what is actually happening between the players and coach in training and on the sidelines.   However, this program is rather storied as you mentioned.  Until this year the dynamic for many of us fans was that going into every game we were the favorite 90-95% of the time.   If we won, well that just figured, if we lost, it was a blip and/or a great performance by the opposition.   That has now changed for the opposite.  If that's not enough to prompt a change from the coach then I don't know what will. 

I transferred to SLU in the fall of 2013, and was able to watch an extremely exciting first season as a student spectator that culminated in a sweet 16 run that came a shot off the post short of an elite 8 appearance.   The next 2 seasons were much of the same, and the feeling was a base line of a 2nd round/sweet 16 appearance by default every year for the program.  All of that changed in 2016 when the coach had his first year with players he recruited.  We didn't even make the LL tournament, and probably should have not received an at large bid.  Even then, most of the heavy lifting that year came from Durocher's recruits.   

It is sad to see, and I am hopeful that the ship will right itself, but I do not think that will be any time in the near future considering we are losing games in the same exact method game after game.

Props to RPI though.  Clinton can be a pain to watch but his passion is contagious with his players and it reflects on the pitch.  He's really the only coach that hasn't had much trouble on Sandy.

[CU_GKnight]

Saints fans I certainly understand your pain.  As a former Clarkson player who played when teams were good enough to compete regionally and occasionally nationally it is hard to watch a program decline.  I am sure it is even harder to see as storied a program as SLU in this decline.  I pointed out this trend toward more possession and back passes last year and I think it has continued to degrade this season.  At Clarkson the decline came from a lack of resources and support from the institution, which I doubt is the case at SLU with Durocher as the AD.  Setting all of the legal issues that came later for Nick Hillary aside (which is hard as I do believe it was a great miscarriage of justice, but necessary for this conversation) he was the wrong coach for the program at the wrong time.  Nick may be a very good coach, but he was not the right fit for Clarkson soccer at that time.  He came in and changed the entire program to emulate the Saint Way, removing nearly all of the Clarkson traditions and practically ignoring alumni.  As a financial supporter of the team he wouldn't even take the time to return my phone calls.  I understand being a coach is hard, but there are a lot of challenges that coaches (especially young ones) fail to see.

I think it is interesting to see how hard it is for teams that have had long runs of success to maintain the level when a coaching legend moves on.  Mike Toschack is a great coach and I was coached by him before he moved into the MLS roles he held after I graduated.  Similarly, Chris Taylor was the perfect coach to turn the Clarkson program around but has struggled at Plattsburgh replacing a legend in Chris Waterbury.  But I think in both these cases the new coach has a very different style than the previous coach and it is going to take time to restart that winning cycle and I think unfortunately you have to go through some dark times to come out the other side.  Based on what I have seen in other sports (Dean Smith at UNC basketball, Steve Spurrier at Florida Football, Bobby Bowden at FSU football and Frank Beamer at VT football) it usually has the coach following the legend take the program down and then be replaced with a coach who can elevate the the program back to the top (working for UNC and Florida but not yet for FSU and VT).  I don't think D3 soccer is at the same level where you would move on from a coach without the same level of success, but I could be wrong.  I do think in his 5th season Tosh needs to possibly make some changes to his thinking to be successful.  Coach Taylor at Platsburgh deserves a few more seasons before you can judge his program as I think the change in styles between him and Waterbury is more drastic.  We also can't forget that SLU is less than a year away from winning both the regular season and LL tournament.

I also think this shows how hard it is to stay on top for an extended period of time and how expectations can possibly get carried away. SLU has still had success in the past 4 years by going to 3 NCAA tournaments.  It is just the lack of success at the tournament that is hard to take for fans and alums so used to deep runs in the tournament.  As great as it is to see Clarkson finally not get run off the pitch by SLU, I do hope that Tosh and SLU find the answers and return the program to prominence.  I hope that your dark times don't last as long as Clarkson's did. I just hope that Clarkson can gain some traction and move the program forward. Despite a few bad results I see some great steps forward for the program and hope they can make a few waves in the Liberty League this season.

[Saint of Old]

Thanks for your encouraging Post Knight.
Unfortunately I do not share the optimism for the program that you do.
As for Clarkson, they had a good win yesterday and should get in the program.

Infact I think the top 6 as it stands now will remain the same come November.
If Vassar makes it, no one will want to play them.

I disagree with your point about former Saint player who coached Clarkson.
He may not have been the right fit, but when racist local police try to convince your 19 year old players to lie about your whereabouts during practice in order to wrongfully convict you with the support of an ignorant population... it is near impossible to run a program after that point.

SLU supporters will never ever be satisfied with making the tourney 3 out of four years when  the team is playing unwatchable soccer.

I played Clarkson several times during my career and it was always one of the HARDEST games of the year.
In the last 20 years however, the Golden Knight program has been like you said on a downward turn because of non-investment and maybe the coach seeing this just not trying as hard.
A program with several losing seasons has to be turned around so it makes sense to change a lot about it in order to accomplish this (never a good idea to not have a good relationship with ALUMNI, the backbone of any program).

SLU is a different animal.
When a program has had tremendous success including yearly NCAA and 4 undefeated seasons a National championship and almost annual conference titles, changing everything is almost insanity.

That is enough from me however, my point here is not to be negative or take confidence away from current Saints, but to remind them that we are a program that never had success by constantly passing the ball back to our goal keeper and hope that he hits a miraculous cross field pass to an open striker.  IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

HOBART are very impressive, head coach just passed the 300 win mark and has a tremendous young staff to assist him in building a real power. Hobart was always one of those teams who brought the fire every year, you could beat them if you were better, but wont be parking the bus against anyone, will punch with anyone and go toe to toe.
CLARKSON sitting at number three might finally get to host a league playoff game this year.

RPI just showed how strong they are by spanking SLU at home and moving to a 9-1 record.

Ithaca feels like they should have won it last year and will be righting that this year if they get the home field.

Union just had a tough loss, but with a good record and some offensive punch should sneak in over a talented SKIDMORE squad.

[deutschfan]

It could be worse. D1 Akron, a perennial powerhouse, sits at 0-7.  They brought in a team psychologist and then lost in overtime to Cornelll.

[Mr.Right]

No doubt this is causing a stir in a community like Canton. The Head Coach HAS to be feeling the pressure daily(who wouldn't be) and what makes everything even worse is Durocher is right down the hall as the AD. I mean if his health is better now he is young enough to return to the sidelines....just sayin...moving on

[CU_GKnight]

Saint-
I agree that SLU is a different animal than nearly any other program due to their dominance and puts them in rare air with a handful of other programs throughout the country who have done similar things at different times. I was just trying to point out that rebuilding the program due to the coaching change may have a slightly different look for SLU.  Some teams fall off the map while trying to rebuild - I was just wondering if 11-12 wins and one and done in the tournament with a down year or two sprinkled in is what SLU may look like as it rebuilds with greater successes to come in the future.  I don't think it fair to any coach to have them come in and tell them to run the program exactly as the predecessor did.  Tosh needs some freedom to develop the program as he sees fit, but should also do it in a way that respects the history and traditions of the program.  The real question to ask is whether Tosh is the right guy to get the program back to its position as a national contender year in and year out.

What I find interesting is the change in the way the program is talked about on these boards.  Prior to this year there appeared to be an unwillingness to criticize the program too heavily and an effort to not go against the program.  Now with the further regression this season I am seeing the frustration start to percolate outward beyond those in the program.  This is a red flag to me as it is the start of the coach losing alumni support - and as you mentioned the support of the alumni is the backbone of the program.  Having seen this same thing happen at Clarkson (and many other places if you follow college football or basketball) and it can push a team to a point where you need more than a rebuild - you need a reboot.  Again, the question is whether Tosh is the right guy for the job - if so, then the alumni need support him and find ways to work with him to improve the situation.  If not, work to find ways to support the program and don't walk away as many others have at other institutions.  Walking away or voicing problems publicly doesn't do anything to advance the program and in many ways sets it back.  My only advice is to find positive steps that can be taken to help the program move forward not backward as the tradition of the SLU program is too great to let fall.

I don't want to belabor the conversation on Nick as I don't think we'll ever agree, but did want to clarify something from my prior post.  When I said it was a miscarriage of justice I meant that it was a complete miscarriage of justice for all involved.  The Phillips family didn't get any justice for their son and Nick was put through an unthinkable ordeal with no facts to support the accusations against him. As for him as a coach I agree the last 2 years were completely untenable and shouldn't be a judge for him as a coach.  However, I think it is important to note that the murder occurred at the tail end of his 3rd season at the helm and they were on their way to a program low 9 goal season.  He had also eroded all support from the programs alumni by that time.  These three years are where I judge his performance and like I said, I just don't think it was the right choice for Clarkson at the time.

[Mr.Right]

Hobart not cracking the Top 25 but Messiah jumping over them even after they beat Messiah earlier in the year should make the Hobart staff nice and cheery this morning. They are 8-2-0 with wins over Cortland and Messiah. I will admit the rest of the Wins are weak sauce but his schedule is not bad.

Winner of today's Ithaca/Hobart match will win the league.

[Red Dog]

Hobart and Ithaca both beat Messiah and NYU. Hobart beat Cortland while Ithaca tied Cortland. Both teams lost a game to a mid-table team. Hobart lost to #18 URoch 1-0. It can probably be argued that Ithaca's out of league schedule has been weaker than Hobart's.

Ithaca is ranked 11, Hobart is......... unranked. Can anyone explain this? (I imagine this question has been posed many times over many years and is unanswerable).

Upcoming game is certainly match of the week. Last years result was a pretty dominant 3-0 win in the rain by Hobart, see what happens in the rain tomorrow.