2014 D3 Season: National Perspective

[KnightFalcon]

I never suggested Tufts played more "competitive" games whatever that means but do you really think OWU wins in 2011 if Messiah did not get knocked out? When was the last time OWU beat Messiah...right never...Tufts just beat them so that might trump all your "competitive games"

but Messiah DID get knocked out - hence OWU was NATIONAL CHAMPION. 
And OWU has beaten Messiah before (not in the last 5 years), but it has happened - and in the tourney for that matter.

The only way to settle that 2011 argument was if OWU and Messiah had played each other at some point that year...

[Saint of Old]

2011 is settled.
OWU  were the KINGS.
End of Story.

Messiah have the greatest history is D3 soccer (at the moment).

Now is 2014 and the King is dead, Long live the new  King when he is crowned.

Good luck to the final 4 teams!

[KnightFalcon]

2011 is settled.
OWU  were the KINGS.
End of Story.

Messiah have the greatest history is D3 soccer (at the moment).

Now is 2014 and the King is dead, Long live the new  King when he is crowned.

Good luck to the final 4 teams!

Sorry Saint of Old, that was intended to be a joke - no question OWU was the champ in 2011. Just trying to make light of the argument going back and forth that IF Messiah had still been in the tourney, would OWU still have been champs. We obviously would only know that if they had actually played each other in the 2011 semi ... Which they didn't ...although they DID play at OWU earlier in the year with Messiah winning. I think that was their only loss for what it's worth. But again, I agree OWU was the undisputed champ that year no question.

[PaulNewman]

2011 is settled.
OWU  were the KINGS.
End of Story.

Messiah have the greatest history is D3 soccer (at the moment).

Now is 2014 and the King is dead, Long live the new  King when he is crowned.

Good luck to the final 4 teams!

Sorry Saint of Old, that was intended to be a joke - no question OWU was the champ in 2011. Just trying to make light of the argument going back and forth that IF Messiah had still been in the tourney, would OWU still have been champs. We obviously would only know that if they had actually played each other in the 2011 semi ... Which they didn't ...although they DID play at OWU earlier in the year with Messiah winning. I think that was their only loss for what it's worth. But again, I agree OWU was the undisputed champ that year no question.

The same argument could be used in reverse for last year.  We don't question for a second Messiah being the King of 2013, even though OWU was undefeated all year and ranked #1 almost the entire year.  We don't know for sure what happens if OWU doesn't have a fluke loss to Rose Hulman similar to Messiah's loss to Neumann.

[Saint of Old]

Ofcoarse Boyz.
I think we are all on the same page.

This is why the big boyz disregard rankings.
My Scarlet and Brown were ranked #1 all of 2011 only to fall in sweet 16.

Unless you are the last team standing, it means nothing.

As I have said before though I think Messiah, then OWU/Wheaton are the class of D3 unless other teams take it away from them.

A D3 Champion is like no other.
You have played and beaten (technically) about 400 teams and bested them all.
Even more impressive when looking at the body of work the above 3 teams have produced.
Great programs
Great coaches
Great traditions.

That being said, we have about a dozen teams waiting to enter this conversation.
This is the beauty of D3 soccer.

Great chance for Tufts and Oneonta to take a step toward this end this weekend!!!

[lastguyoffthebench]

2011 is settled.
OWU  were the KINGS.
End of Story.

Messiah have the greatest history is D3 soccer (at the moment).

Now is 2014 and the King is dead, Long live the new  King when he is crowned.

Good luck to the final 4 teams!

Sorry Saint of Old, that was intended to be a joke - no question OWU was the champ in 2011. Just trying to make light of the argument going back and forth that IF Messiah had still been in the tourney, would OWU still have been champs. We obviously would only know that if they had actually played each other in the 2011 semi ... Which they didn't ...although they DID play at OWU earlier in the year with Messiah winning. I think that was their only loss for what it's worth. But again, I agree OWU was the undisputed champ that year no question.

The same argument could be used in reverse for last year.  We don't question for a second Messiah being the King of 2013, even though OWU was undefeated all year and ranked #1 almost the entire year.  We don't know for sure what happens if OWU doesn't have a fluke loss to Rose Hulman similar to Messiah's loss to Neumann.

Do you think Camden would have been your champion if OWU made it to the final?  Do you think OWU was #1 all year because of the history of the program?  The first half was all Messiah, then a few adjustments were made by Camden and it made for a great game.   Much like the Loras-Camden game... you knew the equalizer was coming (just a matter of when).

I've tried to freeze frame that Camden equalizer vs Loras, and still not sure if went completely over the line, but it does look really close.  Total heartbreaking 3 min of soccer for the Duhawks.  I think Loras could have beaten OWU, but not Messiah.   Messiah wayyy to good on the ball and much more dangerous in wider areas.  JT was the best player during that postseason run, IMO.

[lastguyoffthebench]

2014 is like 2013 all over again...

Undefeated upstart program vs a National Central/North power in the first game...

A National powerhouse vs a NESCAC school...   


Surely we won't see a 4-0 thrashing in the 2nd game, but I do see OWU coming out on top in this one 2-1.   The first game should be a delight... High pace and exciting 3-2 OT bound.

[Brother Flounder]

I'll go with the Jumbos in the second game 2-1 (as long as they come out hard and strong). The first game is a toss-up!

[PaulNewman]

lastguy, I can't recall why OWU was #1 all year ahead of Messiah, Camden, Loras, etc.  They were undefeated and had a huge senior class, and had they not been upset they most likely would have gotten Messiah on OWU's home field.  I probably still would have slightly favored Messiah, but it would have been close.

As for reputation of programs impacting rankings, it seems to me that most of any bias goes in the direction of the East Coast teams.  In the Sweet 16 this year the team that no one really had a clue about was Whitworth.  The Pirates were very good and probably deserved a better result against CNU.  Makes one wonder about Puget Sound and Willamette and what kind of favor the NWC might see if they were located on the East Coast.

I also thought Loras deserved the Camden game and were really, really unlucky.  And as good as the Messiah-Camden final was I think Messiah-Loras would have been even better.

[KnightFalcon]

Messiah-Loras final last year would have been EPIC ... bigger/better than the semi-final the year before and that was an OT thriller. I think Loras was looking for that rematch all year last year which made the loss to Camden all the more difficult. Very interesting contrast in styles between those teams - aggressive, in-your-face style of Loras vs. Possession and attacking style of Messiah. I kind of expected the same from Camden given their rep and the rep of the NJAC(aggressive style of play), so it was very surprising to see them sit back and let Messiah possess so easily in the first half. I suspect it was because they wanted to shorten the game since they were not very deep and only played a couple of subs (not to mention OT the night before) v Messiah which pretty much turns over their entire lineup during a half.

[lastguyoffthebench]

When watching the D1 Final Four games last year (at home rather than PPL Park although it's a close drive, I wasn't sitting in freezing temps and shelling out cash when it was televised).  Twellman made the comment about these teams not getting enough rest before the final (which is a joke).  If only D3 had the luxury of a day of rest.

I know Camden traveled 17 hours on that Wednesday for some long layover... 

From my discussions with their staff post game and even up until a few weeks ago when I re-asked the question when they were in the NJAC playoffs.  Didn't get to watch any of the ECAC games...

The Camden coaching staff debated playing a 4.1.4.1 vs the Messiah 4.2.3.1 the whole night before after beating Loras only to realize their game plan was simple... (I know Oz well and I would have to think it was surely 10 white sugar packets vs 10 pink Sweet and Low packets that decided their fate deep into the late hours of the night on the Riverwalk).  The staff and captains realized the day of the match in their AM meeting that their legs were worn thin from the high energy match the night before.  As their depth wore thin over the season with injuries in their unbeaten 1st 25 games, they had a solution and game plan...(outside of keeping the bench tight and putting it in the hands of 13-15 people)...

Stay tight in a 4.2.3.1 as long as possible (10 yards above MFD line with their lone F) and keep the game even or go up a goal and make Messiah chase (I still haven't seen Tufts v Messiah because my feed was messed up, but I'd imagine that's exactly what Tufts did).  Force JT central at all times and eliminate services from the flank (especially byline) and set piece.  * RUC only felt Messiah would score on either situation or a mistake (both true).  Set pieces of byline services really did them in this year with the roster being gutted from the GK to 3 defenders and a DCM.

Disrupt play and counter with pace if Messiah threw their #'s forward and catch the CB with Ryan in behind (Ryan missed a breakaway early as well) and keep the ball at times to keep Messiah honest in transition.  If Messiah scored, they would go right into a 4.1.4.1 and chase the game (which Camden did).  They remained in that shape until last 15 min or so when they threw parts of the kitchen sink at Messiah with a 3.1.4.2 (moved CB McGrory forward)- he scored the game tying goal (Camden moved McGrory forward the night before and he scored against Loras)

They went back to their blend of 4.2.3.1/4.1.4.1 based on where ball was after score went to 1-1 but Messiah's fitness coupled with exhaustion from Camden's chase of the match for 50+ min lead to the 2-1 OT win for Messiah.  Messiah had much better chances in the 2OT then they did all game (part of that to could be Messiah has been in that situation and they were relentless late).   Looked like Camden tried to win it in OT (which probably kept them wide open) because they thought they could win it and believed if it went to PK's, Messiah had been more clinical over the years.   Randle could have maybe come up big as he just missed that deflected goal from being near the other post, and just missed Payne's smasher by a split second.



                                Sh SOG  G  A Min
---------------------------------------------           ---------------------------------------------
0  Mike Randall........   -   -  -  -      104  (91 vs Loras) Not on 2014 roster
2  Connor Hurff........   2   1  -  -      98  (72 vs Loras)
5  Taylor McGrory......  1   1    1  -   104 (91 vs Loras)  Not on 2014 roster
7  Mike Ryan...........    6   1  -  -     104 (83 vs Loras)
9  Mitch Grotti........     7   3  -  -     104 (74 vs Loras) Not on 2014 roster
10 Stevan Austino......   -   -  -  -      26 (52 vs Loras) Not on 2014 roster
11 Eric Cutry..........   -   -  -  -         94 (91 vs Loras)
13 Joe Auleta..........   1   -  -  -      104 (87 vs Loras)
15 Bobby Foster........   -   -  -  -    104 (91 vs Loras)  Not on 2014 roster
16 Matt Macey..........   -   -  -  -    104 (91 vs Loras)  Not on 2014 roster
25 Keegan Balle........   1   1  -  -   104 (87 vs Loras)  Not on 2014 roster
     ---------- Substitutes ----------                       ----------
6  Grant Taylor........   -   -  -  -       72
20 Ryan Kelly..........   -   -  -  -        8
22 Giuseppe DeLuca.....   -   -  -  -    3

Just looking at that roster it's no surprise they had as many blemishes in 2014...  Playing that difficult schedule really did them in.   Sure they could have had 2 or 3 more wins and had a SOS near that of Salisbury... but they didn't.   Not sure of the recruits next year but a healthy Mike Ryan is probably the favorite to win POY in 2015.... As a senior, depending on the schedule... he might put up 25 goals next year.



Not sure how Loras would have handled Messiah.   I will have to see if I can watch the 2012 Semifinal somewhere.  I'd imagine high pressure and force Messiah into the middle as well.   Run em down and force mistakes in Messiah's defensive third.

[1970s NESCAC Player]

2014 is like 2013 all over again...

Undefeated upstart program vs a National Central/North power in the first game...

A National powerhouse vs a NESCAC school...   


Surely we won't see a 4-0 thrashing in the 2nd game, but I do see OWU coming out on top in this one 2-1.   The first game should be a delight... High pace and exciting 3-2 OT bound.

Lastguy, are you suggesting that Oneonta is an upstart program?  They've been around for 60 years, and were a D1 program until 2006 (and were in NCAA D1 tourney on multiple occasions).  They were also in D3 Final Four in 2011.  Given their tradition, one would expect them to be regular participants in the later rounds of D3 national tourneys.

[lastguyoffthebench]

Just mean upstart in terms of on the national scene as far as a powerhouse.   I'm well aware of the quality of Oneonta St.  I watched the elite 8 game vs Camden and their final 4 game vs Calvin.

Had they not lost to Oberlin, I think they would have gone to the elite 8 in 2013... 


Comparing Oneonta St to Camden since 2006 they have been eerily similar:

Oneonta St.          125-37-20 (.742%)(4 NCAA Apps) Two final fours, three conference championships, one unbeaten regular season
Rutgers-Camden   125-43-17 (.722%)(4 NCAA Apps) One Final, one elite 8, three conference championships, one unbeaten regular season

[D3soccerwatcher]

Messiah doesn't play a 4-2-3-1

[lastguyoffthebench]

Messiah doesn't play a 4-2-3-1

  What do they play... a 4 3 3 in your mind?