2014 D3 Season: National Perspective

[Midwest Soccer]

Mitsuyama is an impressive player. Also have to imagine Colton Bloecher was too. Paolo Bucci from OWU attended the same combine last year. Nice to see Crew scouting D3 here and there. I have to imagine Jeremiah Barnes will be invited next year. He's in the upper echelon of players in D3 and in my opinion, the best player on Kenyon.

[Nutmeg]

Mitsuyama is an impressive player. Also have to imagine Colton Bloecher was too. Paolo Bucci from OWU attended the same combine last year. Nice to see Crew scouting D3 here and there. I have to imagine Jeremiah Barnes will be invited next year. He's in the upper echelon of players in D3 and in my opinion, the best player on Kenyon.

I watched for Bloecher in the Tufts game since I heard so much about him but he really didn't stand out...maybe he or the whole team just had a bad day. Ironically, the unheralded Tufts midfield may have hade their best performance that game.

[D3soccerwatcher]

D3W: one of the barometers. For ONE of the strongest conferences. Never claimed to be THE best. Deep breaths.

I guess I would suggest that deep runs by more than one team from the conference on a regular basis would be ONE other barometer.

In this century, conference appearances in the NCAA Final 4 are as follows:
Middle Atlantic Conference - 12
NESCAC - 7

I think you missed J4J's main point. Don't confuse a "conference" for one team (cough, cough Messiah). The depth of the NESCAC blows the depth of the Middle Atlantic out of the water. Not taking anything away from Messiah, as they are obviously the standard in d3 soccer, but of the MAC's 12 appearances in the final four, almost all (if not all, maybe Lycoming but can't remember) are from that one school.

Conversely, the NESCAC has had Amherst, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Williams, and Tufts all reach the final four (and that's just since 2007). Top to bottom, which I think is J4J's point, the NESCAC is undeniably better based on collective postseason achievements.

Was Messiah better than the five teams I named above? I'd say yes - except for Tufts (based on head to head this year, Tufts won). The NESCACs top five would most likely beat the MAC's top five with the exception of Messiah on a consistent basis. I would give each of the 5 NESCAC teams a 50-50 shot each game against Lycoming, and maybe thats even a bit too generous. If Lycoming played in the NESCAC, I'd have them finishing around #3 or #4 each year. And before you get defensive, keep in mind Tufts beat Messiah 1-0 this year, and Lycoming lost to Messiah 3-0, and then again 4-0...

Again, not taking away from the top programs of the MAC, but top to bottom, the NESCAC is deeper and tougher to play in, week in and week out.

Oldonionbag-

Here's the conversation...

NCAC New England said...

I also admit that I don't get how so many are looking at Tufts and NESCAC as virtually synonymous.  Tufts won, not the NESCAC.

And then J4J said...

NCAC, it IS a NESCAC victory in that voices on this board were using championships as a barometer for strength of league. Tufts is not the only NESCAC to reach the final four recently and not the only conference rep to have won it all. The league has been a fairly regular presence deep in the post-season, despite some voices claiming otherwise. That's where this "Go NESCAC" cheer is coming from. Undeniably, NESCAC is one of the strongest leagues in the division. The Tufts trophy was not a fluke for Tufts this year and not a fluke for the conference.

So then I say...if as J4J clearly said that Tufts' victory "IS a NESCAC victory" then surely every Messiah victory IS a Middle Atlantic Conference victory.  What's good for the goose is surely good for the gander.

As for all the NESCAC teams making the Final 4 on a regular basis this century there are some things to consider. 

Middlebury - won it all once in 2007 and never made the Final 4 again.
Amherst - one Final 4 appearance in 2008 and never made the Final 4 again.
Bowdoin - one Final 4 appearance in 2010  - absolutely tanked in 2011 and never made the Final 4 again
Tufts - obviously won it all this year in really spectacular fashion.  Jury is still out as to their ability to stay on top over a long period of time.  So need to wait and see.  But right now...no doubt a very good team.
Williams - has made the Final 4 three times but did not win it all. But as for longevity with really deep runs they are the best in NESCAC.  But in their last appearance in the final 4, well I don't need to remind you how they got dismantled by that Middle Atlantic Conference team.

If you want to claim quality, then you have to have longevity in really deep runs (on a regular basis as you put it)...and there really isn't a ton of that on this list.  So what you have are teams "chasing the butterfly" and just happening to catch it now and then (with the exception of Williams).

Ask all those those other Middle Atlantic Conference teams whose in the toughest conference in the country.  Some of them, like Elizabethtown have even left the conference - it's that tough.

So I go back to where J4J so outlandishly started this...if the Tufts victory IS a NESCAC victory, then all the Messiah victory's ARE Middle Atlantic Conference victory's and the MAC is still on top with really deep runs on a regular basis.  And which conference is harder to win...Middle Atlantic Conference...hands down.  If all the NESCAC teams were in the Middle Atlantic Conference they probably would have rarely if ever even made the playoffs this century.

[oldonionbag]

D3W: one of the barometers. For ONE of the strongest conferences. Never claimed to be THE best. Deep breaths.

I guess I would suggest that deep runs by more than one team from the conference on a regular basis would be ONE other barometer.

In this century, conference appearances in the NCAA Final 4 are as follows:
Middle Atlantic Conference - 12
NESCAC - 7

I think you missed J4J's main point. Don't confuse a "conference" for one team (cough, cough Messiah). The depth of the NESCAC blows the depth of the Middle Atlantic out of the water. Not taking anything away from Messiah, as they are obviously the standard in d3 soccer, but of the MAC's 12 appearances in the final four, almost all (if not all, maybe Lycoming but can't remember) are from that one school.

Conversely, the NESCAC has had Amherst, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Williams, and Tufts all reach the final four (and that's just since 2007). Top to bottom, which I think is J4J's point, the NESCAC is undeniably better based on collective postseason achievements.

Was Messiah better than the five teams I named above? I'd say yes - except for Tufts (based on head to head this year, Tufts won). The NESCACs top five would most likely beat the MAC's top five with the exception of Messiah on a consistent basis. I would give each of the 5 NESCAC teams a 50-50 shot each game against Lycoming, and maybe thats even a bit too generous. If Lycoming played in the NESCAC, I'd have them finishing around #3 or #4 each year. And before you get defensive, keep in mind Tufts beat Messiah 1-0 this year, and Lycoming lost to Messiah 3-0, and then again 4-0...

Again, not taking away from the top programs of the MAC, but top to bottom, the NESCAC is deeper and tougher to play in, week in and week out.

Ask all those those other Middle Atlantic Conference teams whose in the toughest conference in the country.  Some of them, like Elizabethtown have even left the conference - it's that tough.

So I go back to where J4J so outlandishly started this...if the Tufts victory IS a NESCAC victory, then all the Messiah victory's ARE Middle Atlantic Conference victory's and the MAC is still on top with really deep runs on a regular basis.  And which conference is harder to win...Middle Atlantic Conference...hands down.  If all the NESCAC teams were in the Middle Atlantic Conference they probably would have rarely if ever even made the playoffs this century.

Thanks for digging up that conversation, d3. I guess I should've gone back to take a look. I guess my main argument is that the depth of the NESCAC is far greater than the depth of the MAC.

I'll take issue with your Elizabethtown statement and your "if NESCAC teams played in the MAC they wouldn't make the playoffs almost ever this century."

1) The bottom of the NESCAC rotates with incredible fluctuation. You may have heard of a team by the name of Tufts, who just won the National Championship. In 2009 they finished DEAD last in the NESCAC w/o a conference victory and only TWO out of conference wins. Five years later they are the best team in d3 soccer. You don't "run away" from a conference because you can't hang. Sure, Tufts could have gone to the NEWMAC or UAA or something and finished much better within those conferences...but that's exactly because they aren't the NESCAC. The NESCAC gauntlet breeds winners and tough teams that continually go deep in the NCAAs because many of the teams they play in the opening rounds are worse/the same than those they play during the regular season NESCAC games.

2) Instead of looking at teams that leave a conference because of supposed "toughness", let's take a look at a team who joins one. Case in point- Hamilton College leaving the Liberty League in 2010 for the NESCAC 2011. Take a look at this perennial power from one of the "top tier" d3 soccer conferences in the country's record from 2004 to present:

2013:   5-7-3   NESCAC playoffs (lost first round)
2012:   4-8-2   
2011:   5-6-3   

JOINS NESCAC

2010:   9-3-3   Liberty League semifinalists
2009:   9-5-1   Liberty League semifinalists
2008:   8-6-0   
2007:   10-5-3   Liberty League tournament champions; NCAA second round
2006:   11-4-1   Liberty League regular season champions; league championship semifinalists; NCAA first round
2005:   9-5-1   Liberty League semifinalists
2004:   11-4-2   Liberty League tournament champions; NCAA second round

From being top of the conference year and in and year out to not even making the playoffs until this year, and that despite a losing record.

3) The reason the NESCAC continually gets 3 at large bids is due to the fact that it is comprised of excellent teams. The statement you made about struggling to make the playoffs if the NESCACs played in the MAC is laughable if not absolutely preposterous. How would the top of the MAC table would look with NESCAC teams inserted? I think that most here on these boards would not be surprised for it to finish like this..

Top tier
Tufts
Messiah
Amherst

Upper Middle tier
Williams
Middlebury
Bowdoin

Lower Middle tier
Wesleyan
Lycoming
Conn College

There are very few teams who wouldn't be considered a easy game for the top 6 or 7 NESCAC teams in the MAC. And the middle of the NESCAC would obliterate the middle of the MAC. I don't understand how you came to your conclusion? Additionally, if Messiah played in the NESCAC, they wouldn't have a single cupcake game in conference, save for maybe Bates? For example, they're not going to rest starters against Trinity like they can against Hood. Every game would be a battle.

In conclusion, I now understand your debate with J4J, and I should have done my due diligence to take a look at what was said prior. If one team decides a conference, then yes the MAC reigns supreme. However, in my opinon, one team does not a conference make, and the fact of the matter is- the NESCAC is the most competitive league in the country top to bottom. And if you disagree with me on that, then I think our friend Mr. Right might hit you with facts that I can only dream of unearthing 

[Brother Flounder]

D3W: one of the barometers. For ONE of the strongest conferences. Never claimed to be THE best. Deep breaths.

I guess I would suggest that deep runs by more than one team from the conference on a regular basis would be ONE other barometer.

In this century, conference appearances in the NCAA Final 4 are as follows:
Middle Atlantic Conference - 12
NESCAC - 7

I think you missed J4J's main point. Don't confuse a "conference" for one team (cough, cough Messiah). The depth of the NESCAC blows the depth of the Middle Atlantic out of the water. Not taking anything away from Messiah, as they are obviously the standard in d3 soccer, but of the MAC's 12 appearances in the final four, almost all (if not all, maybe Lycoming but can't remember) are from that one school.

Conversely, the NESCAC has had Amherst, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Williams, and Tufts all reach the final four (and that's just since 2007). Top to bottom, which I think is J4J's point, the NESCAC is undeniably better based on collective postseason achievements.

Was Messiah better than the five teams I named above? I'd say yes - except for Tufts (based on head to head this year, Tufts won). The NESCACs top five would most likely beat the MAC's top five with the exception of Messiah on a consistent basis. I would give each of the 5 NESCAC teams a 50-50 shot each game against Lycoming, and maybe thats even a bit too generous. If Lycoming played in the NESCAC, I'd have them finishing around #3 or #4 each year. And before you get defensive, keep in mind Tufts beat Messiah 1-0 this year, and Lycoming lost to Messiah 3-0, and then again 4-0...

Again, not taking away from the top programs of the MAC, but top to bottom, the NESCAC is deeper and tougher to play in, week in and week out.

Ask all those those other Middle Atlantic Conference teams whose in the toughest conference in the country.  Some of them, like Elizabethtown have even left the conference - it's that tough.

So I go back to where J4J so outlandishly started this...if the Tufts victory IS a NESCAC victory, then all the Messiah victory's ARE Middle Atlantic Conference victory's and the MAC is still on top with really deep runs on a regular basis.  And which conference is harder to win...Middle Atlantic Conference...hands down.  If all the NESCAC teams were in the Middle Atlantic Conference they probably would have rarely if ever even made the playoffs this century.

Thanks for digging up that conversation, d3. I guess I should've gone back to take a look. I guess my main argument is that the depth of the NESCAC is far greater than the depth of the MAC.

I'll take issue with your Elizabethtown statement and your "if NESCAC teams played in the MAC they wouldn't make the playoffs almost ever this century."

1) The bottom of the NESCAC rotates with incredible fluctuation. You may have heard of a team by the name of Tufts, who just won the National Championship. In 2009 they finished DEAD last in the NESCAC w/o a conference victory and only TWO out of conference wins. Five years later they are the best team in d3 soccer. You don't "run away" from a conference because you can't hang. Sure, Tufts could have gone to the NEWMAC or UAA or something and finished much better within those conferences...but that's exactly because they aren't the NESCAC. The NESCAC gauntlet breeds winners and tough teams that continually go deep in the NCAAs because many of the teams they play in the opening rounds are worse/the same than those they play during the regular season NESCAC games.

2) Instead of looking at teams that leave a conference because of supposed "toughness", let's take a look at a team who joins one. Case in point- Hamilton College leaving the Liberty League in 2010 for the NESCAC 2011. Take a look at this perennial power from one of the "top tier" d3 soccer conferences in the country's record from 2004 to present:

2013:   5-7-3   NESCAC playoffs (lost first round)
2012:   4-8-2   
2011:   5-6-3   

JOINS NESCAC

2010:   9-3-3   Liberty League semifinalists
2009:   9-5-1   Liberty League semifinalists
2008:   8-6-0   
2007:   10-5-3   Liberty League tournament champions; NCAA second round
2006:   11-4-1   Liberty League regular season champions; league championship semifinalists; NCAA first round
2005:   9-5-1   Liberty League semifinalists
2004:   11-4-2   Liberty League tournament champions; NCAA second round

From being top of the conference year and in and year out to not even making the playoffs until this year, and that despite a losing record.

3) The reason the NESCAC continually gets 3 at large bids is due to the fact that it is comprised of excellent teams. The statement you made about struggling to make the playoffs if the NESCACs played in the MAC is laughable if not absolutely preposterous. How would the top of the MAC table would look with NESCAC teams inserted? I think that most here on these boards would not be surprised for it to finish like this..

Top tier
Tufts
Messiah
Amherst

Upper Middle tier
Williams
Middlebury
Bowdoin

Lower Middle tier
Wesleyan
Lycoming
Conn College

There are very few teams who wouldn't be considered a easy game for the top 6 or 7 NESCAC teams in the MAC. And the middle of the NESCAC would obliterate the middle of the MAC. I don't understand how you came to your conclusion? Additionally, if Messiah played in the NESCAC, they wouldn't have a single cupcake game in conference, save for maybe Bates? For example, they're not going to rest starters against Trinity like they can against Hood. Every game would be a battle.

In conclusion, I now understand your debate with J4J, and I should have done my due diligence to take a look at what was said prior. If one team decides a conference, then yes the MAC reigns supreme. However, in my opinon, one team does not a conference make, and the fact of the matter is- the NESCAC is the most competitive league in the country top to bottom. And if you disagree with me on that, then I think our friend Mr. Right might hit you with facts that I can only dream of unearthing 

And Tufts did beat Messiah this year...with The Giant Slayer Goal.....they may have made the playoffs this century....

[Jump4Joy]

D3W and OnionB,
First: I never proclaimed NESCAC the #1 conference.
Second: I appreciate your both taking time to pull together archived info. D3W, Messiah is one beacon in the MAC, indeed.
Third: Thanks, OB, for proving my point: NESCAC is ONE of the best. Actually, based on your research, I'm now inclined to believe it may be THE best! 

[lastguyoffthebench]

Just some history here... UAA has some stronger teams, but top-to-bottom I am still giving NJAC the edge over UAA for post-season performance.

NESCAC vs NJAC in NCAA TOURNAMENT:     
2011:   Rutgers-Camden 2, Wesleyan 1
2010:   Middlebury 2, William Paterson 1
2006:   Montclair St 1, Wesleyan 0
2002:   Williams 4, Stockton 1
2000:   Rowan 2, Williams 1
1999:   Stockton 1, Williams 0   (ELITE 8)
1997:   TCNJ 2, Amherst 1
            Kean 5, Trinity 1.
           Trinity 2, Ramapo 1.   
1996:  TCNJ 1, Williams 0 (OT) (ELITE 8) (TCNJ won title)
1995:  Williams 3, TCNJ 0 (ELITE 8) (Williams won title)

NJAC Leads 7-4 in head to head.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Six of 10 teams from the NJAC have made it to the Final 4 (2 in last 3 years).  Five different teams have reached the title game and four different teams have won it:   Rowan 2x, Stockton, Kean, TCNJ.   (Finalists:   '97 TCNJ, '00 Rowan, '13 Camden)

Five of now 11 teams from NESCAC have made it to the Final 4 (7 of last 8 years).   Three have reached the title game won it:  Williams, Middlebury, Tufts.  (Finalists: Williams '93)

With 3 sometimes 4 teams in the same quadrant in tournament (see Bowdoin 2010, where 4 NESCAC teams were in same and Bowdoin had a bye)... you would expect one of those teams to make it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


2014:   TUFTS NATIONAL CHAMPION, Amherst Elite 8.
2013:   RUTGERS-CAMDEN FINALIST; WILLIAMS FINAL FOUR
2012:   WILLIAMS FINAL FOUR (SLU, Brandeis, Amherst, ONU)
2011:   MONTCLAIR STATE FINAL FOUR (smashed by OWU)
2010:  BOWDOIN FINAL FOUR (played all NESCAC teams until Final Four and lost to Lynchburg)
2009:  WILLIAMS FINAL FOUR (Husson, Rensselaer, York, CNU, Smashed by Messiah; Amherst L to York in 32; Bowdoin L to Platt 1st rd; Wesleyan L to Roch in Swt16)
2008:  AMHERST FINAL FOUR (Beat SLU, Swat, Trinity; Smashed by Stevens)
2007:  MIDDLEBURY NATIONAL CHAMPION (York beat Amherst in PK; Middlebury beat York; PKs FINAL 4 over Loras and Trinity)
2001:  STOCKTON NATIONAL CHAMPION
2000:  ROWAN FINALIST
1998:  Rowan and Williams lose in FINAL FOUR.
1997:  TCNJ FINALIST (lost to Wheaton)
1996:  TCNJ NATIONAL CHAMPIONS
1995:  WILLIAMS NATIONAL CHAMPION
1994:  TCNJ FINAL FOUR
1993:  WILLIAMS FINALIST
1992:  KEAN NATIONAL CHAMPION
1991:  TCNJ FINALIST
     



The NJAC is still strong, but the NESCAC has taken over the past few years...   

[PaulNewman]

NESCAC is the top conference, and at worst top two.  But can we reign things in just a little?  I know Tufts mania is causing NESCAC mania, but let's not go too far overboard.  Of course the NESCAC is far better/deeper than the MAC.  That wasn't D3SW's point.

And Hamilton?  Now we're basing the argument on Hamilton? Their record from '08 thru '10 looks pretty average.  We're using conference semifinal appearances as a barometer?  And then we go back to the mid-2000s and earlier?  Are we sure those mid-2000 Hamilton teams would have finished at the bottom of NESCAC?

NESCAC often gets 4 bids.  Last year they got 2, right?  And just 3 this year.  And other than one of you apparently picking Tufts as a darkhorse final four choice (that's a little different than actually picking Tufts to win the title, no?), nobody after conceding the draw to Bowdoin and losing to Conn College would have predicted a title.  I think we can safely say most thought a good showing would be winning the two games at Wheaton and if things were going really well having a good chance against an offensively anemic Muhlenberg before bowing out to Messiah.  Let's remember that before Kanye scores in the first minute against Messiah that the Falcons had just demolished a strong Cortland State team 6-0.

Anyway, certainly enjoy the moment and being on top, but let's hold off on the "best ever" comparisons and putting NESCAC in the Champions League.

[PaulNewman]

One other thing while I await the expiration of the 24 hour period before getting my karma point for the day.

Does no one else here have an issue with posters offering judgments about players here with a negative tilt and broadcasting info that even if true seems rather private?  Calling players "soft" or a top prep striker recruited by Williams and Brandeis who went to Tufts and "never panned out."  Or suggesting where specific players did or not gain admittance or were or were not recruited by particular schools?  There are some things many of us commented on in terms of things we actually observed (a heinous foul, GK antics, etc), and to that I plead guilty as charged, and maybe that stuff should be off limits too, I don't know.  But, at any rate, am I really in the minority on this?

[Midwest Soccer]

NCAC,

You're not alone. 1st off I have no issue with people calling a spade a spade in terms of bad fouls, bench antics, coach antics, etc. Those teams and coaches are putting themselves out there publicly when they do those things in games and any spectator who is present can call it how they see it.

I do have an issue specifically when people call players' academics into question. I'm too lazy to go back and dig it up but at 1 point I know there was argument about how 2 of the players on Kenyon didn't have grades to get into top NESCAC schools which I think is completely off limits. That information should never be shared in a forum such as this in my opinion.

So if you're in the minority, I'm in there with ya.

[Brother Flounder]

I would agree about making statements about grades and personal matters.  I think it may be fine to say that someone didn't play that well in a particular game.....which could be done in a tasteful way or without really bashing a person...

[Gregory Sager]

Ask all those those other Middle Atlantic Conference teams whose in the toughest conference in the country.  Some of them, like Elizabethtown have even left the conference - it's that tough.

2) Instead of looking at teams that leave a conference because of supposed "toughness"

Come on, people. You don't really believe that Elizabethtown left the MAC for the Landmark because of the supposed toughness of the circuit's soccer, do you?

[All NESCAC]

NCAC,

You're not alone. 1st off I have no issue with people calling a spade a spade in terms of bad fouls, bench antics, coach antics, etc. Those teams and coaches are putting themselves out there publicly when they do those things in games and any spectator who is present can call it how they see it.

I do have an issue specifically when people call players' academics into question. I'm too lazy to go back and dig it up but at 1 point I know there was argument about how 2 of the players on Kenyon didn't have grades to get into top NESCAC schools which I think is completely off limits. That information should never be shared in a forum such as this in my opinion.

So if you're in the minority, I'm in there with ya.

Spot on...in agreement.

[Mr.Right]

Your continual attacks on me every day is earning you your negative karma points. Nothing else. I post interesting, truthful and opinionated stuff. Some sites that cover college soccer are much worse than whatever I write. I do not force you to read what I write and I do not complain about the dribble you post. Please if you do not like what I post do not read it and then you squares will not have a problem. In your world this site would be boring and vanilla.

[Mr.Right]

It is almost like your opinions are fine but my opinions are problematic. You have nothing to write about except to attack my posts. Who is the child now? Jealously is invariably a symptom of neurotic insecurity.