FB: Region 6 fan poll

[wm4]

https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/football/d3/regional-rankings


Martin Luther is #10 in the first regional ranking, good job art76 for thinking outside the box.

Just because the Regional Rankigs list Martin Luther 10 doesn't mean it's correct or a good use of the criteria. Especially when there's a H2H result that screams, they aren't as good as GAC. The point of SOS and RRO is to give some data against pure W-L record slotting.

It's not a huge deal right now. But if GAC beats UST Saturday and ML is still above them, that's egregious. And I'm not saying they have to rank GAC, just that if they are ranking ML and not GAC they have missed something significant (I. e. An actual H2H result that was very lopsided)

I can follow the RRO's rankings and logic about 80% of the time.  The other 20%, I'm baffled.  Martin Luther listed and the expense of GAC, is one of those times. 

[smedindy]

Fan polls and regional rankings are not and should not be congruent.

[Ice Bear]

The Regional Rankings are advised heavily by the criteria and they play a big role.

I'm referring to fan poll rankings. Obviously the real Regional Rankings rely heavily on the criteria. My point is that a good fan poll/ballot should as well.

Ice Bear doesn't necessarily think so. Certainly the same criteria used in the RR should be considered when doing the fan poll but as a voter in the fan poll Ice tries to use common sense, which at time, trumps the criteria by itself. Ice isn't sure abut what usually happens out West as he is only beginning to look into the happenings out here, but he sure knows in the East the RR very rarely accurately depicts the top ten teams in the east at any given time.

In the East's RR this week we have ****ing Wilkes at 10, WPI at 9 (which just lost to MIT which isn't ranked) and WNEU at 5 above Ithaca, Brockport, and Cortland. Not taking away from WNEU as they are an impressive NE program but these rankings simply do not reflect the current 10 best teams in this region. Maybe (and sometimes) they shake out and get closer as the weeks go on but damn...piss ****ing poor.

Ice's point is that mixing common sense and criteria from people who know these teams very well  is more accurate (speaking to the fan polls here) than the criteria.

[Baldini]

The Regional Rankings are advised heavily by the criteria and they play a big role.

I'm referring to fan poll rankings. Obviously the real Regional Rankings rely heavily on the criteria. My point is that a good fan poll/ballot should as well.

Ice Bear doesn't necessarily think so. Certainly the same criteria used in the RR should be considered when doing the fan poll but as a voter in the fan poll Ice tries to use common sense, which at time, trumps the criteria by itself. Ice isn't sure abut what usually happens out West as he is only beginning to look into the happenings out here, but he sure knows in the East the RR very rarely accurately depicts the top ten teams in the east at any given time.

In the East's RR this week we have ****ing Wilkes at 10, WPI at 9 (which just lost to MIT which isn't ranked) and WNEU at 5 above Ithaca, Brockport, and Cortland. Not taking away from WNEU as they are an impressive NE program but these rankings simply do not reflect the current 10 best teams in this region. Maybe (and sometimes) they shake out and get closer as the weeks go on but damn...piss ****ing poor.

Ice's point is that mixing common sense and criteria from people who know these teams very well  is more accurate (speaking to the fan polls here) than the criteria.

Baldini thinks Ice Bear knows his east region football.

Baldini thinks Ice Bear is correct in thinking mixing criteria and eye test can lead to a common sense conclusion.

Baldini thinks Ice Bear knows common sense is not always common.

[hazzben]

The Regional Rankings are advised heavily by the criteria and they play a big role.

I'm referring to fan poll rankings. Obviously the real Regional Rankings rely heavily on the criteria. My point is that a good fan poll/ballot should as well.

Ice Bear doesn't necessarily think so. Certainly the same criteria used in the RR should be considered when doing the fan poll but as a voter in the fan poll Ice tries to use common sense, which at time, trumps the criteria by itself. Ice isn't sure abut what usually happens out West as he is only beginning to look into the happenings out here, but he sure knows in the East the RR very rarely accurately depicts the top ten teams in the east at any given time.

In the East's RR this week we have ****ing Wilkes at 10, WPI at 9 (which just lost to MIT which isn't ranked) and WNEU at 5 above Ithaca, Brockport, and Cortland. Not taking away from WNEU as they are an impressive NE program but these rankings simply do not reflect the current 10 best teams in this region. Maybe (and sometimes) they shake out and get closer as the weeks go on but damn...piss ****ing poor.

Ice's point is that mixing common sense and criteria from people who know these teams very well  is more accurate (speaking to the fan polls here) than the criteria.

Ice Bear should consider that there is no common sense or criteria case to be made for ranking Martin Luther. They would lose by 20+ points to the 9 teams ahead of them and the 5-6 teams that didn't get ranked behind them. One of those teams, GAC already destroyed Martin Luther in the H2H 

@Baldini, make the case for why Martin Luther passes "the eye test" ... cuz they certainly don't pass the "field test" aka, see GAC result.

[wm4]

The committee did rank a UMAC team in 2016, but hasn't since.

I'm really not advocating for a UMAC team in the regional rankings, just for everyone to keep an open mind to other possibilities is all.

Reading this board as a whole, what I come away with is voters like myself have in fact kept an open mind to other possibilities.  I know I spend as much time looking at UMAC and MWC results as I do on WIAC/MIAC, for example.  But if some of us are making definitive statements that Martin Luther is not a top 10 West team, it's because actual data, including head to head results, formed that view.  There's nothing closed minded about that. 

What's fun is that with all the upsets and surprises this year in the West, as a voter it forces me to go deeper into the results and info, to form my ballot each week. 

[Baldini]

The Regional Rankings are advised heavily by the criteria and they play a big role.

I'm referring to fan poll rankings. Obviously the real Regional Rankings rely heavily on the criteria. My point is that a good fan poll/ballot should as well.

Ice Bear doesn't necessarily think so. Certainly the same criteria used in the RR should be considered when doing the fan poll but as a voter in the fan poll Ice tries to use common sense, which at time, trumps the criteria by itself. Ice isn't sure abut what usually happens out West as he is only beginning to look into the happenings out here, but he sure knows in the East the RR very rarely accurately depicts the top ten teams in the east at any given time.

In the East's RR this week we have ****ing Wilkes at 10, WPI at 9 (which just lost to MIT which isn't ranked) and WNEU at 5 above Ithaca, Brockport, and Cortland. Not taking away from WNEU as they are an impressive NE program but these rankings simply do not reflect the current 10 best teams in this region. Maybe (and sometimes) they shake out and get closer as the weeks go on but damn...piss ****ing poor.

Ice's point is that mixing common sense and criteria from people who know these teams very well  is more accurate (speaking to the fan polls here) than the criteria.

Ice Bear should consider that there is no common sense or criteria case to be made for ranking Martin Luther. They would lose by 20+ points to the 9 teams ahead of them and the 5-6 teams that didn't get ranked behind them. One of those teams, GAC already destroyed Martin Luther in the H2H 

@Baldini, make the case for why Martin Luther passes "the eye test" ... cuz they certainly don't pass the "field test" aka, see GAC result.

Baldini thinks hazzben has incorrectly assumed that Baldini was making a case for Martin Luther in the top 10. Baldini thinks if hazzben go's back to reply #729 he will see were Baldini listed 13 teams he thought were possibilities for the first regional rankings before the ranking came out. Baldini thinks hazzben may want to try some decaf.

[Baldini]

The committee did rank a UMAC team in 2016, but hasn't since.

I'm really not advocating for a UMAC team in the regional rankings, just for everyone to keep an open mind to other possibilities is all.

Reading this board as a whole, what I come away with is voters like myself have in fact kept an open mind to other possibilities.  I know I spend as much time looking at UMAC and MWC results as I do on WIAC/MIAC, for example.  But if some of us are making definitive statements that Martin Luther is not a top 10 West team, it's because actual data, including head to head results, formed that view.  There's nothing closed minded about that. 

What's fun is that with all the upsets and surprises this year in the West, as a voter it forces me to go deeper into the results and info, to form my ballot each week.

I agree with all that. I thought my comment was fairly clear and simple, I was not implying that if people didn't come to a conclusion to include a team from a bottom tier conference that they were wrong. Just keep an open mind about everyone, but if a voter should decide to include one of them it is not the huge mistake that some want to claim either.

[art76]

@Baldini, make the case for why Martin Luther passes "the eye test" ... cuz they certainly don't pass the "field test" aka, see GAC result.

(Sorry, Hazz - I just grabbed your quote for an example - I know you "get it")

Thanx guys, for noticing I went waaaaaay against the grain in my last ballot. I'll state for the third time, I threw out all the TWO LOSS teams before selecting my picks. It trumps all head to head, regional rankings and comes closer to a true "coaches poll", in that it is simply looking at wins and losses. Once I had those teams, I tried ranking them in order of who I thought could beat whom in a head to head competition. There was no intention on my part to guess how I would do against the regional rankings - I got lucky there.

However, after a little navel gazing, one has to start to wonder if I caught onto something concerning the Regional Ranking Committee. Perhaps, they too, put more emphasis on records versus the secondary and tertiary tools at their disposal at this time of year. As Hazz has mentioned a few times here, Gustavus should be "Regionally Ranked" with the win over Martin Luther, if head to head competition was the primary tool at their disposal, and other "better games" thus far. But it kind of looks to me like the Committee has turned a blind eye to these types of results.

This might be a question Pat could forward to the NCAA for clarification, at this time of the year, when SOS is still so fluid.

[hazzben]

I hate decaf   

[Pat Coleman]

This might be a question Pat could forward to the NCAA for clarification, at this time of the year, when SOS is still so fluid.

I already know you are a podcast regular, so I think you will get something out of the interview we have in tomorrow's pod (257) with Jim Catanzaro.

[art76]

PS. And another thing I did in my last ballot was put Linfield ahead of Redlands, because it is my opinion that if they played this Saturday, the results would be different, because Linfield has "grown" more that the Bulldogs have through the season. I know, it's such a travesty what I have done...

[hazzben]

I'm ashamed of you art 

[art76]

This might be a question Pat could forward to the NCAA for clarification, at this time of the year, when SOS is still so fluid.

I already know you are a podcast regular, so I think you will get something out of the interview we have in tomorrow's pod (257) with Jim Catanzaro.

Thanx Pat! Looking forward to it - hope I can figure out how to listen on my phone as I head north for the deer opener.

[Baldini]

PS. And another thing I did in my last ballot was put Linfield ahead of Redlands, because it is my opinion that if they played this Saturday, the results would be different, because Linfield has "grown" more that the Bulldogs have through the season. I know, it's such a travesty what I have done...

GASP!!!