2015 D3 Season: NATIONAL PERSPECTIVE

[Flying Weasel]

Wheaton is a Christian school....does Messiah compete with Wheaton for players?

I'm sure they still do.  Given their similar religious orientation, they've always "competed" for students, in general, as Pennsylvania has always been a leading provider of students for Wheaton which truly draws nationally (only 21% in-state).  As to soccer recruits, back in the day, Wheaton would win out more often than not, and that changed as Messiah began winning national titles and could increasingly draw players from well beyond their own region as Wheaton had been doing for decades.  That was strongly symbolized by eventual POY JD Binger from the Chicago suburbs choosing Messiah over nearby Wheaton in the mid-2000's.  Now, I'm sure Messiah has a significant edge if the decision comes down to soccer.

[Flying Weasel]

If their were more schools like Messiah at the D1 level, Messiah would be a relative after thought. We have discussed this before and concluded the D1 Christian schools that Messiah would normally compete with for players are not strong soccer powers.

Mr Right,

The only person that made that conclusion about Messiah was you.  Here's just one quick example of how your point-of-view is on this is flawed.

Have you ever heard of a player by the name of Keegan Rosenberry?  Look him up, he plays for Georgetown and is destined for the pros, maybe MLS.  Read his bio.  He attended Lancaster Mennonite High School (Christian school in PA), and was recruited by Messiah but chose Georgetown instead.  And he was apparently very connected to Messiah...his father was a former Messiah soccer player, his Mother played field hockey at Messiah, and his older sister also played field hockey at Messiah.  Yet he chose Georgetown.

This is just one example, of many I'm sure, that shows that Messiah competes against D1 schools just as much as any other D3 soccer program does, maybe more.

D3soccerwatcher,

I think what Mr. Right is saying (he can correct me), is that if there were more evangelical Christian Div. I schools also with good men's soccer programs, than Messiah would have much more competition for the top players coming out of high school who would like to play at an evangelical Christian school and a large percentage of them would opt to play at one of the Div. I options over Div. III Messiah and Messiah wouldn't have gotten enough top-level talent to have grown into the powerhouse they are.

Sure, some . . ., many Christian players don't restrict themselves to only considering Christian schools (which your example points out), but some certainly do have that as a preference.  For those players, Messiah certainly has a huge recruiting advantage due to the lack of attractive Div. I options (and that's what I understood Mr. Right's point to be).

[Mr.Right]

That is exactly what I was implying. All the credit to Brandt for realizing this and taking advantage of this much more than his predecessor. You cannot fault Shoemaker though because very few coaches back in the day recruited like they do today. Shoemaker got the ball rolling in the early 90's but Brandt went full force when he took over. I would venture to guess that before Bean at Wheaton new what had happened, Messiah had already won 2 national championships and he was behind the 8 ball.

[4231CenterBack]

I think the clear and obvious recruiting advantage that Messiah has had may be eroding just a little bit.  If they fail to win a championship this year or get close, it will be telling. How do you compete with being able to almost guarantee an 18-year-old kid a national championship?  Or multiple championships?  If that advantage is gone, or lessened, it clearly helps level the playing field. Messiah's natural competitors for recruits Wheaton, Calvin and increasingly Gordon, have young, driven, charismatic coaches. These colleges and others also arguably have advantages academically and might be in more desirable locations.

McCarty is not loved like Brandt was, nor is he seen as a transformative figure like Brandt was. He certainly has been successful, but there's a sense of him being more of a intelligent caretaker than a visionary.....at least that's the view from the outside. I'd be curious to hear a Messiah insiders respectful, but honest take on the difference between McCarty and Brandt. I think the success of a small college soccer program is hugely dependent upon the head coach and his abilities, personality and charisma.

[lastguyoffthebench]

I know it has been talked about before on here, but what are the minimum requirements to get into the NESCAC schools?  Are they fairly similar across the board?   A few months ago there was talk of the TIPS.   I had no idea what that even was, but definitely very informative.

Mr. Right, you mentioned endowments...   Will a team like Washington & Lee soon take over the ODAC?    Do you know anything about Singleton (2nd year from MIT).    Haven't seen them play, but they have some pieces of the puzzle to become a force in that conference, no?

Also, are there any New England schools that we don't hear much about in the forum which are a few years away from being on the regional/national map?

[2xfaux]

I am sure you folks have talked about this before.  Messiah does not play football.  Men's Soccer is the top of the food chain. 

[jknezek]

W&L is going to be an interesting case to watch. Coach Pirhanian was there FOREVER. Over 30 years I believe. I think he was satisfied with putting out good kids, decent ODAC teams, and occasionally competing to win an ODAC championship. Generally W&L finds that an acceptable level for most of its athletic teams, with a few exceptions as listed below. I don't think Coach Pirhanian really had the drive to be a national factor or even to dominate the ODAC, nor do I really think that is required of a W&L coach.

W&L, as a whole, doesn't put a lot of emphasis on athletics. The facilities over the last 20 years have been brought up to scratch, maybe even very good in some areas like the indoor tennis center. However, there really isn't a huge push to take the athletic programs to a national level, just to be appropriate for the school. There are some programs that year in and out are nationally competitive, men's and women's tennis, men's and recently women's lacrosse, the men's and women's swimming teams usually have a few nationally competitive pieces, same with track and field.

But a lot of it is dependent on the coach in each sport. Those coaches are not going to slide a kid through that can't get in on his own. And W&L's standards are high. Much higher than the rest of the ODAC and close to the lower and middle NESCAC schools. We will see if Coach Singleton can transform the program or just improve it a bit. I expect it will get better based on  his drive, but dominate the ODAC? Become a national presence? I find that unlikely unless he really is an exceptional coach and recruiter.

[Saint of Old]

4-2-3-1 CB said
"I think the success of a small college soccer program is hugely dependent upon the head coach and his abilities, personality and charisma".

Ahh, my point made one simple sentence.

No surprise  that Dr. J, Russo, Bean, Durocher and Brandt all fit this description to the T, and have dominated D3 for the last quarter century.

Not to debate conferences again, but the Tufts coach seems to be the next generation of great coaches with this mix, as does Russo's replacement at Williams (who won a championship and had great success as a player learning under Russo).

Soccer is a weird sport. and to be a great coach one has to first be a good father, teacher, philosopher, psychologist and politician (To deal with AD's)

That is a whole lot of things to embody in one individual, yet it is  what is required to deal with hungry, aggressive teenagers, most of whom will be shocked at the level of competition in their first year, as well as admissions and parents who will not easily entrust their children to a stranger for 4 years.

[Flying Weasel]

Meesiah's recruiting class: http://gomessiah.com/news/2015/3/24/MSOC_0324151556.aspx

[Midwest Soccer]

McCarty is not loved like Brandt was, nor is he seen as a transformative figure like Brandt was.

I've heard nothing but amazing things about McCarty from someone close to the program. I think he may be more loved than you give him credit for.

As far as being a transformative figure, he hasn't really had much to transform has he? He took over a program that had won something like 5 national championships in 6 years (not sure on that)....but since he's taken over, he's won the national championship all but 2 years (4 championships in 6 years) and in those 2 years they failed to win, his combined record was 39-2-2 with 1 of those losses to the eventual national champion.

Completely fair to say Brandt is a legend at Messiah but I think it's a stretch to say McCarty isn't transformative or loved like Brandt was. I know there is a "Messiah Way" of doing things and the first championship and maybe even the second a lot of people were still giving Brandt all the credit cause they were "his players and recruits" (nevermind McCarty was the assistant all those years as well) but McCarty deserves his fair share of credit. What he's done is simply amazing. He inherited a job where winning was basically the only option or you'd be viewed as a failure and that is all he has done.

[D3soccerwatcher]

If their were more schools like Messiah at the D1 level, Messiah would be a relative after thought. We have discussed this before and concluded the D1 Christian schools that Messiah would normally compete with for players are not strong soccer powers.

Mr Right,

The only person that made that conclusion about Messiah was you.  Here's just one quick example of how your point-of-view is on this is flawed.

Have you ever heard of a player by the name of Keegan Rosenberry?  Look him up, he plays for Georgetown and is destined for the pros, maybe MLS.  Read his bio.  He attended Lancaster Mennonite High School (Christian school in PA), and was recruited by Messiah but chose Georgetown instead.  And he was apparently very connected to Messiah...his father was a former Messiah soccer player, his Mother played field hockey at Messiah, and his older sister also played field hockey at Messiah.  Yet he chose Georgetown.

This is just one example, of many I'm sure, that shows that Messiah competes against D1 schools just as much as any other D3 soccer program does, maybe more.

D3soccerwatcher,

I think what Mr. Right is saying (he can correct me), is that if there were more evangelical Christian Div. I schools also with good men's soccer programs, than Messiah would have much more competition for the top players coming out of high school who would like to play at an evangelical Christian school and a large percentage of them would opt to play at one of the Div. I options over Div. III Messiah and Messiah wouldn't have gotten enough top-level talent to have grown into the powerhouse they are.

Sure, some . . ., many Christian players don't restrict themselves to only considering Christian schools (which your example points out), but some certainly do have that as a preference.  For those players, Messiah certainly has a huge recruiting advantage due to the lack of attractive Div. I options (and that's what I understood Mr. Right's point to be).

I understand the premise that some believe that because Messiah is a Christian college it has some sort of recruiting advantage.  However, if you follow that argument to its logical conclusion it seems to crumble to pieces.

Flying Weasel put it this way... if there were more D1 high quality soccer programs..."Messiah wouldn't have gotten enough top-level talent to have grown into the powerhouse they are".

But here's where the argument starts to crumble.  Don't all the dozens and dozens of D3 Christian soccer programs (and Christian NAIA and NCCAA programs for that matter) also benefit from the same "lack of D1 Christian soccer programs"?  Didn't those dozens of Christian D3 schools have the same opportunity to "have gotten enough top-level talent to have grown into [a] powerhouse".  And don't all those schools EVEN TODAY still have the same opportunity to build a powerhouse soccer program out of Christian players just like Messiah.  Of course all those Christian colleges had the same opportunity over the past 35 years to build a powerhouse soccer program – but they did not and still have not done it.

How is it that with so many Christian D3 soccer programs across the nation, that Messiah is the only one to crack the code to multiple national championships?  It simply CANNOT be just because it is a Christian college – the logic does not hold up.   It seems to be because they built a better soccer program that attracted better players over the past 35 years, and all the other Christian, and non-religious colleges for that matter, did not and still have not quite been able to do the same thing.  Sure, as Messiah's program progressed they were able to continue to get good players, just like Tufts championship will help their recruiting, especially if they can piece a few more good years together.

If there were only one or two Christian D3 soccer programs and they were always on top maybe there would be an argument.  But with so many Christian college D3 soccer programs, and with only one program really breaking through over the past 35 years, the Christian college factor simply cannot be the deciding factor – the logic just does not hold up.

And if lower division Christian NCAA soccer programs benefit from a "lack of D1 Christian soccer programs", why aren't Malone, Cedarville, Palm Beach Atlantic and other Christian colleges absolutely crushing it in D2?  They are not.  Shouldn't they be getting all the great Christian players too who want a Christian school over D1?  This is simply not happening.

Still further, if the best Christian players want D1 and a true "evangelical" environment, shouldn't Liberty be perennial D1 national champions.  They are not. 

The logic of the argument simply does not compute.

I think that others on this board are absolutely correct.  It gets down to the environment that the head coach can develop over time.  Put another way, D3 soccer is very head coach centric.  My guess is that if the David Brandt/Brad McCarty combo had become head coaches in NESCAC, they would have been equally, if not even more successful then they have been at Messiah (and to the best of my knowledge there are not any Christian colleges in NESCAC).

[4231CenterBack]

McCarty is not loved like Brandt was, nor is he seen as a transformative figure like Brandt was.

I've heard nothing but amazing things about McCarty from someone close to the program. I think he may be more loved than you give him credit for.

As far as being a transformative figure, he hasn't really had much to transform has he? He took over a program that had won something like 5 national championships in 6 years (not sure on that)....but since he's taken over, he's won the national championship all but 2 years (4 championships in 6 years) and in those 2 years they failed to win, his combined record was 39-2-2 with 1 of those losses to the eventual national champion.

Completely fair to say Brandt is a legend at Messiah but I think it's a stretch to say McCarty isn't transformative or loved like Brandt was. I know there is a "Messiah Way" of doing things and the first championship and maybe even the second a lot of people were still giving Brandt all the credit cause they were "his players and recruits" (nevermind McCarty was the assistant all those years as well) but McCarty deserves his fair share of credit. What he's done is simply amazing. He inherited a job where winning was basically the only option or you'd be viewed as a failure and that is all he has done.

I'm just recounting what I've heard from former players and those with more knowledge of the program than I. You'll notice I give lots of credit to McCarty and qualify the statements as an outsiders view. I also ask for a Messiah insiders view of this idea. It all goes to the larger question of the sustainability of the dynasty that Brandt created and McCarty has sustained. Can McCarty keep it going after graduating "the best class ever" at messiah. That's the question I'm interested in.

[4231CenterBack]

I'm just recounting what I've heard from former players and those with more knowledge of the program than I. You'll notice I give lots of credit to McCarty and qualify the statements as an outsiders view. I also ask for a Messiah insiders view of this idea. It all goes to the larger question of the sustainability of the dynasty that Brandt created and McCarty has sustained. Can McCarty keep it going after graduating "the best class ever" at Messiah. That's the question I'm interested in.

[Mr.Right]

I know it has been talked about before on here, but what are the minimum requirements to get into the NESCAC schools?  Are they fairly similar across the board?   A few months ago there was talk of the TIPS.   I had no idea what that even was, but definitely very informative.

Mr. Right, you mentioned endowments...   Will a team like Washington & Lee soon take over the ODAC?    Do you know anything about Singleton (2nd year from MIT).    Haven't seen them play, but they have some pieces of the puzzle to become a force in that conference, no?

Also, are there any New England schools that we don't hear much about in the forum which are a few years away from being on the regional/national map?

Washington and Lee has a very good chance of taking over the ODAC. I have not been to the campus in years but I remember a picturesque setting with decent facilities. As far as Singleton goes he was at MIT for 2 years and took them to the NCAA's both years. He did inherit a good group of players from Gooding when he took over. He is a bright young coach who went to Princeton I believe. That is a soccer rich area down there and he is a good recruiter.

[Mr.Right]

I am sure you folks have talked about this before.  Messiah does not play football.  Men's Soccer is the top of the food chain.

This is helpful but guarantees nothing. Conn College is the only Nescac school without football and they benefit by usually getting the biggest and rowdiest fans in Nescac. It is a nice home field advantage for them and that is it.