2015 D3 Season: NATIONAL PERSPECTIVE

[1970s NESCAC Player]

Very immature how anyone who took a side in this discussion regarding polling received negative karma.  Very disappointing.  Join in the discussion and make your view known; don't take it out on those with whom you disagree (hopefully respectfully)!

[PaulNewman]

Sorry, but would be nice to know who the karma trolls are.

Enough of you have made a point about rankings (and, indeed, final rankings) and recruiting that there must be something there, but I'm hard pressed to think of a concrete example where it would play out like that.  Once you narrow down for overall school preferences, schools a kid qualifies for, the school's overall talent in terms of being interested, the kid's talent, wanting to play right away vs later, etc, etc I can't see how some relatively small difference in rankings (that can't be countered easily with "well, yeah, but we just made the Sweet 16") would be a deciding factor.  Can someone provide an example to aid the discussion? 

[PaulNewman]

I would think a bigger problem in terms of recruiting would be Midd, E'town, Colorado Coll, etc explaining how they didn't make the tournament.  More than rankings, I think many kids are probably interested in going somewhere where they may have a chance to play in the NCAA tournament.  In that regard, schools that have been to several or more NCAA tourneys in a row or made several consecutive Sweet 16s would be more attractive than a school touting a single high final ranking.

[Mr.Right]

I suppose an up and coming program might use their "new" ranking as a recruiting edge but there are WAY too many other important factors to a student athlete at the D3 level then the ranking of a team. Most of these kids have been coddled all there life and been told how special they are by their interfering meddling parents so a coach might just pick up where the parent left off when they drop the kid off for a visit..."Your a special player" "You will help change the program" "With you we can contend for a national title"..This is still a complete SELL....What sells these wide eyed bushy tailed kids more than FACILITIES, academic / athletic reputation, HOT GIRLS walking around, parties...etc etc...A smart recruiter will have sized a kid up right away on the visit and give him what he wants to see and hear. Mind you this is only for kids that the coach is HIGHLY interested in..If your kid did not receive any or some of this attention than quite frankly the coach wasn't going to waste his time...If your kid got a quick 20-30 minute meeting with no tour, schmoozing, invite for an upcoming weekend game, etc than the coach could of cared less and seen the kid play and was not interested but had to deal with the kid because he kept bothering the coach.

I drifted off topic but the point was that ranking / recruiting really is not much of a factor.

[Shooter McGavin]

I suppose an up and coming program might use their "new" ranking as a recruiting edge but there are WAY too many other important factors to a student athlete at the D3 level then the ranking of a team. Most of these kids have been coddled all there life and been told how special they are by their interfering meddling parents so a coach might just pick up where the parent left off when they drop the kid off for a visit..."Your a special player" "You will help change the program" "With you we can contend for a national title"..This is still a complete SELL....What sells these wide eyed bushy tailed kids more than FACILITIES, academic / athletic reputation, HOT GIRLS walking around, parties...etc etc...A smart recruiter will have sized a kid up right away on the visit and give him what he wants to see and hear. Mind you this is only for kids that the coach is HIGHLY interested in..If your kid did not receive any or some of this attention than quite frankly the coach wasn't going to waste his time...If your kid got a quick 20-30 minute meeting with no tour, schmoozing, invite for an upcoming weekend game, etc than the coach could of cared less and seen the kid play and was not interested but had to deal with the kid because he kept bothering the coach.

I drifted off topic but the point was that ranking / recruiting really is not much of a factor.

Thanks for your input Mr. Right. I really did want to hear it as I have not heard from you in a while. Hope all is well. I think it depends on the type of player/kid too. If the kid is good but wants to go to a place where he/she can play all 4 years then maybe the ranking scares them away but if the kid is good and knows it and has offers from other really good schools with high ranking then maybe the past performances and reputation and ranking factor a bit more.

Let's say a player is looking at a couple D1 schools, a D2 school, and Messiah, Lycoming, Wheaton, Amherst, and Eastern. All very good teams and NCAA tournament teams(exception of Messiah in this rare case). So if I am the player and I am good and know it what am I thinking?

Do I want to go sit the bench for a few years most likely and play a year and maybe start 1 year and say I played D1. Nah. D2 schools are arguably worse than most D3 schools so scratch them off the list.

Now I am down to the D3 schools. I am good and getting actively recruited by Messiah. The legacy and reputation is through the roof. They graduate 4 or 5 starters and I might have a chance to crack the line up as a freshman if not most likely play. Ranked for the majority of the year and always a contender who had a down year by their standards. Winning national championships is there game!! I want one. Keep them on the list. Next is Amherst. They just won the NCAA title. Appealing. But they will get every other kid just as good or better than me. #1 team in the country. What if I don't play? Keep them on the list for now. Wheaton had a great season and is also a historic program like Messiah. #9 ranking means I could play for a top 10 team in the country. Wouldn't that be cool to tell my friends! Keep them for now. Lycoming had a great season and have been successful the last 3 seasons. Can I help them keep winning or does not graduating anyone scare me away because of potential playing time? Top 15 in both polls is appealing though. Keep them on the list for now. Eastern had a good season and finally made NCAA's. They play in a fairly easy conference and I know I can play with the kids they already have. I can probably start all 4 years. Ranked for a majority of the year until the end but RV. Keep them on the list.

So what do you do? Obviously this factors nothing else like MONEY/Financial aid, location, facilities, size of school, etc. But from a players viewpoint that's where they might be at in regards to the playing aspect and ranking/success aspect of it. It honestly all depends on the kids attitude and family and money and desire to play at the next level. It's an interesting process when you dive into it.   

[Flying Weasel]

St. Olaf is deserving of a top 25 ranking after I saw them play AND because of how well the performed in the NCAA tournament. By saying that the NCAA tournament finish/performance doesn't matter in comparison to final rankings positioning is ludicrous. That's like saying well SOS doesn't matter in the selection process. Should it matter? YES. Should it be the only criteria(NCAA or SOS example? NO! But it should be a major factor as SOS is and NCAA performance IMO is.

I never said that NCAA Tournament finish shouldn't matter--I very much think it should matter as it is part of the full body of work, and being that it pits top teams against each other, it can be more telling than the average regular season match. But I obviously do not think it should be weighted nearly as heavily as you, blooter442, and others think it should. That's all. On the other hand, whoever supports a stipulation that the Final Four teams must be ranked 1 - 4, the other Elite 8 teams must be 5 - 8, and the remaining Sweet 16 teams must be 9 - 16 is saying that nothing but tournament finish matters for the ranking.  I think it should all matter, after all it's the 2015 Top 25, not the Tournament Top 25 or the November Top 25.

FW never once said you were wrong just didn't agree with your analysis. Doesn't make me right or wrong either.

I guess technically not, since I never said if I thought St. Olaf should be ranked or not, but you got very close when you said this:

There is no way that St. Olaf should not be in the top 25 after their NCAA performance. No way. If you disagree you are wrong I am telling you that right now.

What if I said I wouldn't have St. Olaf on my ballot?

The Amherst example with Wesleyan is just silly. Stop it.

What specifically is silly about it? It illustrates that a team can lose to another team in a single-elimination tournament at the end of the season and still be (considered) the better team--we do agree that Amherst is better than Wesleyan, don't we?  It illustrates that a team can be eliminated in an earlier round of a single-elimination tournament at the end of the season and still be (considered) better than teams that advanced further. If that concept (tournament advancement doesn't always equate to being the better team) applies to conference tournaments, I'm not sure why it wouldn't apply to the NCAA tournament as well.



Hey, I've probably invested way too much time debating this, but I've enjoyed the discussion.  It's past time for me to give it a rest. Some of us will have to agree to disagree. If I could sum up everything I have been arguing for, the heart of it is these three things:

(1) Any poll (not specifically D3soccer.com's poll) should have a process which gives its voters the full liberty to vote for who they want to vote for, to allow their ballot to fully reflect their personal opinion. You start handcuffing voters, limiting their options, telling them who they can and can't vote for in certain slots, and in the end you may have a ranking, but not a poll which by definition is a collection of opinions. So I am arguing to let polls be what they are: polls.

(2) If a final ranking primarily just parrots the NCAA tournament finish of teams, than it seems to be redundant/superflous and therefore unecessary and without purpose.

(3) A Top 25 voter should considered much more than just a team's tournament advancement/finish. That is just one part of their full body of work.  An important part, but just a part.  It can offset some of the regular season and conference tournament, but not all of it. An 8-loss team who reaches the Sweet 16 finish shouldn't blindly be considered a better team than a 2-loss team who was eliminated in the second round.

[Shooter McGavin]

Good stuff FW and does anybody know when All-American Awards(or whatever they call them on the website) come out for D3Soccer?

[gustiefan04]

I suppose an up and coming program might use their "new" ranking as a recruiting edge but there are WAY too many other important factors to a student athlete at the D3 level then the ranking of a team. Most of these kids have been coddled all there life and been told how special they are by their interfering meddling parents so a coach might just pick up where the parent left off when they drop the kid off for a visit..."Your a special player" "You will help change the program" "With you we can contend for a national title"..This is still a complete SELL....What sells these wide eyed bushy tailed kids more than FACILITIES, academic / athletic reputation, HOT GIRLS walking around, parties...etc etc...A smart recruiter will have sized a kid up right away on the visit and give him what he wants to see and hear. Mind you this is only for kids that the coach is HIGHLY interested in..If your kid did not receive any or some of this attention than quite frankly the coach wasn't going to waste his time...If your kid got a quick 20-30 minute meeting with no tour, schmoozing, invite for an upcoming weekend game, etc than the coach could of cared less and seen the kid play and was not interested but had to deal with the kid because he kept bothering the coach.

I drifted off topic but the point was that ranking / recruiting really is not much of a factor.

As a coach of U17-18 club teams, and with 10+ players filing into the D3 ranks in this 2016 recruiting class, I don't think a teams rank, plays much if any factor at all, in the decision process. Most of the guys aren't even looking at rankings.

Mr. Right hit the nail on the head. Its about facilities, academic fit, ability to play immediately, money and how genuinely interested the coach seems in the player.

[Golden_Fan]

I suppose an up and coming program might use their "new" ranking as a recruiting edge but there are WAY too many other important factors to a student athlete at the D3 level then the ranking of a team. Most of these kids have been coddled all there life and been told how special they are by their interfering meddling parents so a coach might just pick up where the parent left off when they drop the kid off for a visit..."Your a special player" "You will help change the program" "With you we can contend for a national title"..This is still a complete SELL....What sells these wide eyed bushy tailed kids more than FACILITIES, academic / athletic reputation, HOT GIRLS walking around, parties...etc etc...A smart recruiter will have sized a kid up right away on the visit and give him what he wants to see and hear. Mind you this is only for kids that the coach is HIGHLY interested in..If your kid did not receive any or some of this attention than quite frankly the coach wasn't going to waste his time...If your kid got a quick 20-30 minute meeting with no tour, schmoozing, invite for an upcoming weekend game, etc than the coach could of cared less and seen the kid play and was not interested but had to deal with the kid because he kept bothering the coach.

I drifted off topic but the point was that ranking / recruiting really is not much of a factor.

As a coach of U17-18 club teams, and with 10+ players filing into the D3 ranks in this 2016 recruiting class, I don't think a teams rank, plays much if any factor at all, in the decision process. Most of the guys aren't even looking at rankings.

Mr. Right hit the nail on the head. Its about facilities, academic fit, ability to play immediately, money and how genuinely interested the coach seems in the player.

I remember back when I was looking at colleges to play for, back in 2006/2007, I definitely looked at the rankings both nationally and their conference for the couple of years prior to see how they did. I would also look at the roster to see how many kids they had at that position, what class they were, and how much playing time they received.

After that I would see if the school had the majors I was thinking about going for and if they did I would email the coach. Once the coach got back to me I set up a visit and then toured the athletic facilities and school.

[Shooter McGavin]

I suppose an up and coming program might use their "new" ranking as a recruiting edge but there are WAY too many other important factors to a student athlete at the D3 level then the ranking of a team. Most of these kids have been coddled all there life and been told how special they are by their interfering meddling parents so a coach might just pick up where the parent left off when they drop the kid off for a visit..."Your a special player" "You will help change the program" "With you we can contend for a national title"..This is still a complete SELL....What sells these wide eyed bushy tailed kids more than FACILITIES, academic / athletic reputation, HOT GIRLS walking around, parties...etc etc...A smart recruiter will have sized a kid up right away on the visit and give him what he wants to see and hear. Mind you this is only for kids that the coach is HIGHLY interested in..If your kid did not receive any or some of this attention than quite frankly the coach wasn't going to waste his time...If your kid got a quick 20-30 minute meeting with no tour, schmoozing, invite for an upcoming weekend game, etc than the coach could of cared less and seen the kid play and was not interested but had to deal with the kid because he kept bothering the coach.

I drifted off topic but the point was that ranking / recruiting really is not much of a factor.

As a coach of U17-18 club teams, and with 10+ players filing into the D3 ranks in this 2016 recruiting class, I don't think a teams rank, plays much if any factor at all, in the decision process. Most of the guys aren't even looking at rankings.

Mr. Right hit the nail on the head. Its about facilities, academic fit, ability to play immediately, money and how genuinely interested the coach seems in the player.

Ability to play immediately might hinder on how good the team is...which if they are nationally ranked every year and get top quality kids then the ability to play right away would or might be taken away...so you just provided a reason why looking at rankings do and would matter to your athletes even though you are arguing against it......

[Shooter McGavin]

I remember back when I was looking at colleges to play for, back in 2006/2007, I definitely looked at the rankings both nationally and their conference for the couple of years prior to see how they did. I would also look at the roster to see how many kids they had at that position, what class they were, and how much playing time they received.

After that I would see if the school had the majors I was thinking about going for and if they did I would email the coach. Once the coach got back to me I set up a visit and then toured the athletic facilities and school.
[/quote]

That's exactly what the process is for almost all D3 athletes...well done and +K. Not trying to sway anybody's opinions one way or the other but I myself, like Golden Fan, lastguy, and MAF, do believe rankings play a role in the recruiting process. You don't hear of many "top recruits" looking at poor soccer programs. They list their choices and usually they have 2-3 really solid nationally recognized programs and maybe 1 fluff school that is still not a bad soccer team but not on the level of the other 3. You won't be seeing a kid who could play at Tufts or Amherst end up at a school like Albright or Del Val who average 3 wins a year. 

Maybe they end up at the fluff school like Kings or Eastern who have good competitive programs every year and make playoffs every year and have a shot at NCAA's every year but aren't at the same level as Tufts, Amherst, Messiah, Loras, etc. Fluff isn't the right word but I will stick with it for this example. 

[Jump4Joy]

Does it matter to recruits if the coach has been a COY?
What would be more important: National COY or league COY?

[lastguyoffthebench]

When you look at rankings, it could definitely sway a player's decision.   You have Cabrini, Eastern, and Haverford all within a 3 miles of each other (Eastern and Cabrini are across the street from ea other).  Maybe a player chooses Cabrini over Eastern (if they were ranked the year before), also considering that the conference is not as strong and likely to reach the NCAA Tournament almost every year.  Not sure about Eastern, but when I was looking at schools... Cabrini offered a decent "academic scholarship"...

With a strong season that Haverford had, you're now looking at the other end of the spectrum... The Fords will now get looks from kids who are also considering D1 schools like Villanova (3.0 miles away), St. Joseph's (4.5 miles away).    Would you rather play on a mid-tier D1 school that plays in a good conference under a coach like Tom Carlin or go to a smaller upstart program jumping on the national map like Haverford under Rineer.


Haverford:  64k a year
Villanova:   60.5k a year
St. Josephs:  56k a year

If cost to attend becomes a burden:

Cabrini:   45k a year
Eastern:  41.5k a year

[lastguyoffthebench]

After looking at the rosters of the top NJAC schools:

MSU:  27 / 27 players from NJ
RUC:  35 / 35 players from NJ
RUN:  29 / 29 players from NJ
ROW: 22 / 24 players from NJ
RS:    26 / 28 players from NJ

Also was able to see Rutgers-Camden tentative schedule for next year.  The out-of-conference includes:

(n) St. Marys, @ Salisbury, Alvernia, Farmingdale St, Brockport St, @ Cabrini, @ Misericordia, @ Haverford, USMMA, Swarthmore

Going by last years records, 212-130-33; .630 SOS

Playing Haverford, MSU, Rowan, Stockton, Cabrini on the road will be tough outs...

[Shooter McGavin]

After looking at the rosters of the top NJAC schools:

MSU:  27 / 27 players from NJ
RUC:  35 / 35 players from NJ
RUN:  29 / 29 players from NJ
ROW: 22 / 24 players from NJ
RS:    26 / 28 players from NJ

Also was able to see Rutgers-Camden tentative schedule for next year.  The out-of-conference includes:

(n) St. Marys, @ Salisbury, Alvernia, Farmingdale St, Brockport St, @ Cabrini, @ Misericordia, @ Haverford, USMMA, Swarthmore

Going by last years records, 212-130-33; .630 SOS

Playing Haverford, MSU, Rowan, Stockton, Cabrini on the road will be tough outs...

WOW! That's a very tough non-conference schedule considering the already tough conference schedule they will have to face. They will/should have no problems with St. Marys, Alvernia, Farmingdale, Misericordia, MM or Cabrini but the Fords, Salisbury, Swat and Brockport will b very good, tough tests for them. Not saying the others won't be either, but those are the big 4 that standout from that list.

Alvernia played a lot of good teams very tough this past season so that is by no means a win. Cabrini went to the NCAA tournament and was a good game for RUC this year in a 1-0 win. Lost to Fords 3-0. Lost to Salisbury 1-0. Beat Misericordia 7-1. Beat St. Mary's 2-1. Lost to Swat 1-0. Lots of familiar teams from this past season.