Pool C -- 2015

[emma17]

One thing that I found interesting and important is that Mount Union and Whitewater wound up on opposite sides because that's just how it happened.  If they wind up on the same side or even in the same region, fine.  If not, also fine.  But it would be bad for the process here if the committee intentionally put them together.

True but I have a skeptical eye about intentionality.  You could take Pat's bracket and literally swap Wheaton w UWW with zero impact except pitting the purples in the semis.  Those schools are 90 miles apart.

I'm chanting:  Do it, Do it, Do it, Do it, Do it.
It would be terrific for D3. 
Using Pat's bracket, I'd prefer UWW and UWO on the same side so there is no chance they can meet in the Stagg. 
In addiiton, the current bracket prevents Mt from playing a national power.  This needs to come to an end at some point.  Usee's idea seems to make perfect sense.  I might swap Dubuque and UWP.

Mount Union gets an easy ride to the finals.  Ah, that ol' chestnut. 

I don't think it's good for D3 to have not the two best teams playing in the nationally televised championship.  If that's Mount Union and Whitewater again, that's fine.  But it would do a disservice to the tournament if those two were placed on the same side of the bracket intentionally with the sole purpose being to eliminate one of them before Salem.  I think Pat's bracket and explanation that UMU and UWW winding up on opposite sides happened organically was important and I hope (realize this is a long shot) that it helps squash conspiracy theories about bracketing.

Wally, I'm not sure if you disagree with my statement that Mt has had an easier path to the Stagg Bowl than the team from the other side of the bracket?
This isn't a knock on Mt, in fact, I'd wager most Mt fans would prefer to see tougher opponents in the playoffs. 
I think we all agree that the two best teams should play in the Stagg.  I think where me may disagree is that as good as Mt is, I feel they've benefited from an easier path to the Stagg.  This is a great opportunity for the committee to construct a bracket that clearly requires the eventual Stagg participants to play equally difficult playoff schedules.   

[wally_wabash]

Mount Union gets an easy ride to the finals.  Ah, that ol' chestnut. 

I don't think it's good for D3 to have not the two best teams playing in the nationally televised championship.  If that's Mount Union and Whitewater again, that's fine.  But it would do a disservice to the tournament if those two were placed on the same side of the bracket intentionally with the sole purpose being to eliminate one of them before Salem.  I think Pat's bracket and explanation that UMU and UWW winding up on opposite sides happened organically was important and I hope (realize this is a long shot) that it helps squash conspiracy theories about bracketing.

Wally, I'm not sure if you disagree with my statement that Mt has had an easier path to the Stagg Bowl than the team from the other side of the bracket?
This isn't a knock on Mt, in fact, I'd wager most Mt fans would prefer to see tougher opponents in the playoffs. 
I think we all agree that the two best teams should play in the Stagg.  I think where me may disagree is that as good as Mt is, I feel they've benefited from an easier path to the Stagg.  This is a great opportunity for the committee to construct a bracket that clearly requires the eventual Stagg participants to play equally difficult playoff schedules.

I do disagree.  The evidence (really loose wording, I know) that Mount Union gets a free ride to Salem seems to be that they never play anybody who can beat them through the first four rounds (which is false) and that all of the teams Mount Union plays in the first four rounds of the tournament stink because they can never beat Mount Union.  That Mount Union often makes it look easy, doesn't mean that it is easy. 

[desertcat1]

Mount Union gets an easy ride to the finals.  Ah, that ol' chestnut. 

I don't think it's good for D3 to have not the two best teams playing in the nationally televised championship.  If that's Mount Union and Whitewater again, that's fine.  But it would do a disservice to the tournament if those two were placed on the same side of the bracket intentionally with the sole purpose being to eliminate one of them before Salem.  I think Pat's bracket and explanation that UMU and UWW winding up on opposite sides happened organically was important and I hope (realize this is a long shot) that it helps squash conspiracy theories about bracketing.

Wally, I'm not sure if you disagree with my statement that Mt has had an easier path to the Stagg Bowl than the team from the other side of the bracket?
This isn't a knock on Mt, in fact, I'd wager most Mt fans would prefer to see tougher opponents in the playoffs. 
I think we all agree that the two best teams should play in the Stagg.  I think where me may disagree is that as good as Mt is, I feel they've benefited from an easier path to the Stagg.  This is a great opportunity for the committee to construct a bracket that clearly requires the eventual Stagg participants to play equally difficult playoff schedules.

I do disagree.  The esvidence (really loose wording, I know) that Mount Union gets a free ride to Salem seems to be that they never play anybody who can beat them through the first four rounds (which is false) and that all of the teams Mount Union plays in the first four rounds of the tournament stink because they can never beat Mount Union. That Mount Union often makes it look easy, doesn't mean that it is easy.

ww,

I don't see many top 5 teams before they hit the big Show  from this Island?   past or present;D

[retagent]

emma - it sounds like you believe that UWW is one of the 2 best teams. Aren't you as guilty as wally of "assuming?"

[wally_wabash]

Mount Union gets an easy ride to the finals.  Ah, that ol' chestnut. 

I don't think it's good for D3 to have not the two best teams playing in the nationally televised championship.  If that's Mount Union and Whitewater again, that's fine.  But it would do a disservice to the tournament if those two were placed on the same side of the bracket intentionally with the sole purpose being to eliminate one of them before Salem.  I think Pat's bracket and explanation that UMU and UWW winding up on opposite sides happened organically was important and I hope (realize this is a long shot) that it helps squash conspiracy theories about bracketing.

Wally, I'm not sure if you disagree with my statement that Mt has had an easier path to the Stagg Bowl than the team from the other side of the bracket?
This isn't a knock on Mt, in fact, I'd wager most Mt fans would prefer to see tougher opponents in the playoffs. 
I think we all agree that the two best teams should play in the Stagg.  I think where me may disagree is that as good as Mt is, I feel they've benefited from an easier path to the Stagg.  This is a great opportunity for the committee to construct a bracket that clearly requires the eventual Stagg participants to play equally difficult playoff schedules.

I do disagree.  The esvidence (really loose wording, I know) that Mount Union gets a free ride to Salem seems to be that they never play anybody who can beat them through the first four rounds (which is false) and that all of the teams Mount Union plays in the first four rounds of the tournament stink because they can never beat Mount Union. That Mount Union often makes it look easy, doesn't mean that it is easy.

ww,

I don't see many top 5 teams before they hit the big Show  from this Island?   past or present;D

They've played UMHB a few times.  I think Wesley was in the top 5 last year going into the tournament (but I also understand that our West region viewers think Wesley is fraudulent, mostly because they can't beat Mount Union).  I mean, I understand that the Raiders don't ever get matched up with Linfield.  That's really not going to happen and it's a limitation that we have to live with in D3.  I do reject the idea that Mount Union has it easy.  There aren't four easy games any one team can have in a 5-round tournament.  That's just not possible. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

I'm curious.

2014

Mount Rd 1 opponent / UWW Rd 1 opponent

8-2 MIAA champion Adrian / 9-1 MWC champion Macalester
10-1 PAC champion W & J / 10-1 NCAC runnerup Wabash
11-1 OAC runnerup JCU / 12-0 IIAC champion Wartburg
12-1 independent Wesley / 11-1 NWC champion Linfield

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but those look pretty equal to me.  Both teams played a lightweight league champion in round 1, a traditionally-strong-top-15ish team in Round 2, a very strong opponent in Round 3, and even with Mount's annihilation of Wesley last year, I don't think we're going to say the problem is Mount's been playing Wesley in the semifinals instead of Linfield.

2013

8-2 PAC champion W & J / 8-2 MWC champion St. Norbert
10-1 NCAC champion Wittenberg / 8-3 HCAC champion Franklin
10-2 independent Wesley / 11-0 NWC champion Linfield
13-0 CCIW champion North Central / 13-0 ASC champion UMHB

You could argue here that UWW's road was a little tougher because Linfield/UMHB were probably a little stronger than Wesley/North Central, but all four of these teams are on the official list of programs that The Emma Playoff Proposal approves as Pool C teams that can raise the competitive level of the playoffs.

2012, obviously, UWW was not in the Stagg.

2011

7-3 NATHC champion Benedictine / 6-4 MIAA champion Albion
9-1 SCAC champion Centre / 10-1 HCAC champion Franklin
12-0 NCAC champion Wabash / 11-1 Empire 8 champion Salisbury
12-1 independent Wesley / 13-0 MIAC champion St. Thomas

Again: where's the big difference here?  Maybe you can quibble that St. Thomas was a little stronger than Wesley, but (in 2011) Wesley had just beaten UMHB in the quarterfinals and had a regular-season win against UWW's quarterfinal opponent, Salisbury.  This Wesley team was no paper tiger, they had some very real teeth.

The playoff path has been pretty similar for both teams in all three of these seasons, I think.  If you disagree, where, specifically, do you think there's been a significant difference in the quality of opposition that Mount has played en route to the Stagg Bowl vs. UWW?

[D3MAFAN]

Mount Union gets an easy ride to the finals.  Ah, that ol' chestnut. 

I don't think it's good for D3 to have not the two best teams playing in the nationally televised championship.  If that's Mount Union and Whitewater again, that's fine.  But it would do a disservice to the tournament if those two were placed on the same side of the bracket intentionally with the sole purpose being to eliminate one of them before Salem.  I think Pat's bracket and explanation that UMU and UWW winding up on opposite sides happened organically was important and I hope (realize this is a long shot) that it helps squash conspiracy theories about bracketing.

Wally, I'm not sure if you disagree with my statement that Mt has had an easier path to the Stagg Bowl than the team from the other side of the bracket?
This isn't a knock on Mt, in fact, I'd wager most Mt fans would prefer to see tougher opponents in the playoffs. 
I think we all agree that the two best teams should play in the Stagg.  I think where me may disagree is that as good as Mt is, I feel they've benefited from an easier path to the Stagg.  This is a great opportunity for the committee to construct a bracket that clearly requires the eventual Stagg participants to play equally difficult playoff schedules.

I do disagree.  The esvidence (really loose wording, I know) that Mount Union gets a free ride to Salem seems to be that they never play anybody who can beat them through the first four rounds (which is false) and that all of the teams Mount Union plays in the first four rounds of the tournament stink because they can never beat Mount Union. That Mount Union often makes it look easy, doesn't mean that it is easy.

ww,

I don't see many top 5 teams before they hit the big Show  from this Island?   past or present;D

I am always indifferent when it comes to this topic. Based upon Pat's bracket, do I see a team challenging Mount Union? Yes, but no where close to how the West/North shapes out. I think it should be clear to the committee that Mount Union has been to the championship game for so many years, however has not won every one of those games, losing to UWW three times. If someone was to look at the past 5 years of DIII football and look at Mount Union playoff schedule, you would see in 2014 they played two competitive games, one in a rematch against their conference rival and the other, the championship game which they were really outmanned and lost. In 2013, it was totally different, they played 3 competitive games and then went on to get blown out in the championship game, 3 teams had a really good chance to dethrone them, but didn't. In 2012, with there being no UWW, they had  two competitive games, one against UMHB and the championship game. Lastly 2011, it mirrors that of 2013 without the blowout loss in the championship game. Now look at UWW playoffs the years they made it, in 2014, they had two competitive games before facing Mount Union, same thing Mount Union faced. In 2013 UWW, had two really close games, one less than Mount Union, however dismantled Mount Union in the championship game. In 2011, UWW somewhat cruised to the championship game, were the games competitive? Yes, but was there really any doubt that UWW had the better coaching and teams? No. Now are we arguing that Mount Union doesn't play a touch schedule during their regular season, thus automatically throwing them into the #1 seed? Again, many teams over the past few year had a chance to change the committee way of seeding, but didn't get the job done. Do we think that if Mount Union played the same schedule as UWW, they may have faced more challenging games? Who knows? All we know is that the only team to beat Mount Union has been UWW. The only thing I can say is that Mount Union over the last 4 years in the playoffs has 6 wins against North Region, 9 against South Region (Wesley included in South), 1 win against East, and 1 win against West. They have 3 losses against the West, which all came by the hands of UWW. No other team in the West has beaten them or beat UWW to prove otherwise.
Edit: ExTartan beat me to the chase.

[desertcat1]

Mount Union gets an easy ride to the finals.  Ah, that ol' chestnut. 

I don't think it's good for D3 to have not the two best teams playing in the nationally televised championship.  If that's Mount Union and Whitewater again, that's fine.  But it would do a disservice to the tournament if those two were placed on the same side of the bracket intentionally with the sole purpose being to eliminate one of them before Salem.  I think Pat's bracket and explanation that UMU and UWW winding up on opposite sides happened organically was important and I hope (realize this is a long shot) that it helps squash conspiracy theories about bracketing.

Wally, I'm not sure if you disagree with my statement that Mt has had an easier path to the Stagg Bowl than the team from the other side of the bracket?
This isn't a knock on Mt, in fact, I'd wager most Mt fans would prefer to see tougher opponents in the playoffs. 
I think we all agree that the two best teams should play in the Stagg.  I think where me may disagree is that as good as Mt is, I feel they've benefited from an easier path to the Stagg.  This is a great opportunity for the committee to construct a bracket that clearly requires the eventual Stagg participants to play equally difficult playoff schedules.

I do disagree.  The esvidence (really loose wording, I know) that Mount Union gets a free ride to Salem seems to be that they never play anybody who can beat them through the first four rounds (which is false) and that all of the teams Mount Union plays in the first four rounds of the tournament stink because they can never beat Mount Union. That Mount Union often makes it look easy, doesn't mean that it is easy.

ww,

I don't see many top 5 teams before they hit the big Show  from this Island?   past or present;D

[/b]

I am always indifferent when it comes to this topic. Based upon Pat's bracket, do I see a team challenging Mount Union? Yes, but no where close to how the West/North shapes out. I think it should be clear to the committee that Mount Union has been to the championship game for so many years, however has not won every one of those games, losing to UWW three times. If someone was to look at the past 5 years of DIII football and look at Mount Union playoff schedule, you would see in 2014 they played two competitive games, one in a rematch against their conference rival and the other, the championship game which they were really outmanned and lost. In 2013, it was totally different, they played 3 competitive games and then went on to get blown out in the championship game, 3 teams had a really good chance to dethrone them, but didn't. In 2012, with there being no UWW, they had  two competitive games, one against UMHB and the championship game. Lastly 2011, it mirrors that of 2013 without the blowout loss in the championship game. Now look at UWW playoffs the years they made it, in 2014, they had two competitive games before facing Mount Union, same thing Mount Union faced. In 2013 UWW, had two really close games, one less than Mount Union, however dismantled Mount Union in the championship game. In 2011, UWW somewhat cruised to the championship game, were the games competitive? Yes, but was there really any doubt that UWW had the better coaching and teams? No. Now are we arguing that Mount Union doesn't play a touch schedule during their regular season, thus automatically throwing them into the #1 seed? Again, many teams over the past few year had a chance to change the committee way of seeding, but didn't get the job done. Do we think that if Mount Union played the same schedule as UWW, they may have faced more challenging games? Who knows? All we know is that the only team to beat Mount Union has been UWW. The only thing I can say is that Mount Union over the last 4 years in the playoffs has 6 wins against North Region, 9 against South Region (Wesley included in South), 1 win against East, and 1 win against West. They have 3 losses against the West, which all came by the hands of UWW. No other team in the West has beaten them or beat UWW to prove otherwise.
Edit: ExTartan beat me to the chase.

Hey boys,
my statement was about Mt.U NOT playing as MANY top 5 teams on there way to the big dance. (hence  "easier") .  As far as wesley goes they kicked the crap out of linfield with the biggest second half come from behind win in cats history. That makes them the champs until we beat them.

  top 5 in week 11 by D3 poll.   2015   MT.U, Linfield,Uwo,St tom, Wheaton  present .
   
Past.
2014           2013       2012      2011         2010 .


Uww           Mt u         Mt u          uww         uww
umhb          Linfied    umhb         mt u         mt u
mt u            Umhb     linfield        st tom      wasley
wesley          Ncc        st tom        umhb      st tom
wart             Uww       uwo            linfield      Ncc

looks like 3 or 4 to one ,  FROM this  Island to me .

[emma17]

emma - it sounds like you believe that UWW is one of the 2 best teams. Aren't you as guilty as wally of "assuming?"

I don't understand your question.
If you're asking me if I think UWW is one of the 2 best teams right now, the answer is no, I don't believe that.

[emma17]

I'm curious.

2014

Mount Rd 1 opponent / UWW Rd 1 opponent

8-2 MIAA champion Adrian / 9-1 MWC champion Macalester
10-1 PAC champion W & J / 10-1 NCAC runnerup Wabash
11-1 OAC runnerup JCU / 12-0 IIAC champion Wartburg
12-1 independent Wesley / 11-1 NWC champion Linfield

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but those look pretty equal to me.  Both teams played a lightweight league champion in round 1, a traditionally-strong-top-15ish team in Round 2, a very strong opponent in Round 3, and even with Mount's annihilation of Wesley last year, I don't think we're going to say the problem is Mount's been playing Wesley in the semifinals instead of Linfield.

2013

8-2 PAC champion W & J / 8-2 MWC champion St. Norbert
10-1 NCAC champion Wittenberg / 8-3 HCAC champion Franklin
10-2 independent Wesley / 11-0 NWC champion Linfield
13-0 CCIW champion North Central / 13-0 ASC champion UMHB

You could argue here that UWW's road was a little tougher because Linfield/UMHB were probably a little stronger than Wesley/North Central, but all four of these teams are on the official list of programs that The Emma Playoff Proposal approves as Pool C teams that can raise the competitive level of the playoffs.

2012, obviously, UWW was not in the Stagg.

2011

7-3 NATHC champion Benedictine / 6-4 MIAA champion Albion
9-1 SCAC champion Centre / 10-1 HCAC champion Franklin
12-0 NCAC champion Wabash / 11-1 Empire 8 champion Salisbury
12-1 independent Wesley / 13-0 MIAC champion St. Thomas

Again: where's the big difference here?  Maybe you can quibble that St. Thomas was a little stronger than Wesley, but (in 2011) Wesley had just beaten UMHB in the quarterfinals and had a regular-season win against UWW's quarterfinal opponent, Salisbury.  This Wesley team was no paper tiger, they had some very real teeth.

The playoff path has been pretty similar for both teams in all three of these seasons, I think.  If you disagree, where, specifically, do you think there's been a significant difference in the quality of opposition that Mount has played en route to the Stagg Bowl vs. UWW?

I know there are many, many ways to look at the history and form an opinion as to who has played a tougher playoff schedule.  We each have our preferences on what to look at.  I'm on record as having assembled a list of teams I consider top competition based on their track record of playing competitively against the best teams.
Here is the list of the top teams played by Mt and UWW in the playoffs (not Stagg) since 2007:

UMHB:           Mt- 1x, UWW-3 x's (once on road)
Linfield:          Mt- 0x, UWW- 3x's (unless we go back to 05)
Wesley:           Mt- 4x's, UWW- 1x (unless we go back to 05, 06)
NCC:               Mt- 1 x, UWW- 2 x's
Wabash:          Mt-1 x,  UWW- 2 x's
St. Thomas:    Mt- 0, UWW-1x
Bethel:             Mt- 1x, UWW- 0
JCU:                 Mt- 1x, UWW- 0
Wartburg:         Mt- 0, UWW- 2x's

In 2010 UWW also played Franklin and Trine- both teams had top QB's in the country.
This is what I look at when I make the comment that Mt's had an easier path to the Stagg. 

[D3MAFAN]

I'm curious.

2014

Mount Rd 1 opponent / UWW Rd 1 opponent

8-2 MIAA champion Adrian / 9-1 MWC champion Macalester
10-1 PAC champion W & J / 10-1 NCAC runnerup Wabash
11-1 OAC runnerup JCU / 12-0 IIAC champion Wartburg
12-1 independent Wesley / 11-1 NWC champion Linfield

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but those look pretty equal to me.  Both teams played a lightweight league champion in round 1, a traditionally-strong-top-15ish team in Round 2, a very strong opponent in Round 3, and even with Mount's annihilation of Wesley last year, I don't think we're going to say the problem is Mount's been playing Wesley in the semifinals instead of Linfield.

2013

8-2 PAC champion W & J / 8-2 MWC champion St. Norbert
10-1 NCAC champion Wittenberg / 8-3 HCAC champion Franklin
10-2 independent Wesley / 11-0 NWC champion Linfield
13-0 CCIW champion North Central / 13-0 ASC champion UMHB

You could argue here that UWW's road was a little tougher because Linfield/UMHB were probably a little stronger than Wesley/North Central, but all four of these teams are on the official list of programs that The Emma Playoff Proposal approves as Pool C teams that can raise the competitive level of the playoffs.

2012, obviously, UWW was not in the Stagg.

2011

7-3 NATHC champion Benedictine / 6-4 MIAA champion Albion
9-1 SCAC champion Centre / 10-1 HCAC champion Franklin
12-0 NCAC champion Wabash / 11-1 Empire 8 champion Salisbury
12-1 independent Wesley / 13-0 MIAC champion St. Thomas

Again: where's the big difference here?  Maybe you can quibble that St. Thomas was a little stronger than Wesley, but (in 2011) Wesley had just beaten UMHB in the quarterfinals and had a regular-season win against UWW's quarterfinal opponent, Salisbury.  This Wesley team was no paper tiger, they had some very real teeth.

The playoff path has been pretty similar for both teams in all three of these seasons, I think.  If you disagree, where, specifically, do you think there's been a significant difference in the quality of opposition that Mount has played en route to the Stagg Bowl vs. UWW?

I know there are many, many ways to look at the history and form an opinion as to who has played a tougher playoff schedule.  We each have our preferences on what to look at.  I'm on record as having assembled a list of teams I consider top competition based on their track record of playing competitively against the best teams.
Here is the list of the top teams played by Mt and UWW in the playoffs (not Stagg) since 2007:

UMHB:           Mt- 1x, UWW-3 x's (once on road)
Linfield:          Mt- 0x, UWW- 3x's (unless we go back to 05)
Wesley:           Mt- 4x's, UWW- 1x (unless we go back to 05, 06)
NCC:               Mt- 1 x, UWW- 2 x's
Wabash:          Mt-1 x,  UWW- 2 x's
St. Thomas:    Mt- 0, UWW-1x
Bethel:             Mt- 1x, UWW- 0
JCU:                 Mt- 1x, UWW- 0
Wartburg:         Mt- 0, UWW- 2x's

In 2010 UWW also played Franklin and Trine- both teams had top QB's in the country.
This is what I look at when I make the comment that Mt's had an easier path to the Stagg.

+K for your analysis, so are you saying that there is a big difference between Wesley, Bethel, and JCU (teams who faced Mt more) as oppose to Wartburg, St. Thomas, Wabash, NCC, Linfield and UMHB (teams who face UWW more)? Based upon your preferences, I can't see a big difference between Wesley and Linfield during those years.

[emma17]

I'm curious.

2014

Mount Rd 1 opponent / UWW Rd 1 opponent

8-2 MIAA champion Adrian / 9-1 MWC champion Macalester
10-1 PAC champion W & J / 10-1 NCAC runnerup Wabash
11-1 OAC runnerup JCU / 12-0 IIAC champion Wartburg
12-1 independent Wesley / 11-1 NWC champion Linfield

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but those look pretty equal to me.  Both teams played a lightweight league champion in round 1, a traditionally-strong-top-15ish team in Round 2, a very strong opponent in Round 3, and even with Mount's annihilation of Wesley last year, I don't think we're going to say the problem is Mount's been playing Wesley in the semifinals instead of Linfield.

2013

8-2 PAC champion W & J / 8-2 MWC champion St. Norbert
10-1 NCAC champion Wittenberg / 8-3 HCAC champion Franklin
10-2 independent Wesley / 11-0 NWC champion Linfield
13-0 CCIW champion North Central / 13-0 ASC champion UMHB

You could argue here that UWW's road was a little tougher because Linfield/UMHB were probably a little stronger than Wesley/North Central, but all four of these teams are on the official list of programs that The Emma Playoff Proposal approves as Pool C teams that can raise the competitive level of the playoffs.

2012, obviously, UWW was not in the Stagg.

2011

7-3 NATHC champion Benedictine / 6-4 MIAA champion Albion
9-1 SCAC champion Centre / 10-1 HCAC champion Franklin
12-0 NCAC champion Wabash / 11-1 Empire 8 champion Salisbury
12-1 independent Wesley / 13-0 MIAC champion St. Thomas

Again: where's the big difference here?  Maybe you can quibble that St. Thomas was a little stronger than Wesley, but (in 2011) Wesley had just beaten UMHB in the quarterfinals and had a regular-season win against UWW's quarterfinal opponent, Salisbury.  This Wesley team was no paper tiger, they had some very real teeth.

The playoff path has been pretty similar for both teams in all three of these seasons, I think.  If you disagree, where, specifically, do you think there's been a significant difference in the quality of opposition that Mount has played en route to the Stagg Bowl vs. UWW?

I know there are many, many ways to look at the history and form an opinion as to who has played a tougher playoff schedule.  We each have our preferences on what to look at.  I'm on record as having assembled a list of teams I consider top competition based on their track record of playing competitively against the best teams.
Here is the list of the top teams played by Mt and UWW in the playoffs (not Stagg) since 2007:

UMHB:           Mt- 1x, UWW-3 x's (once on road)
Linfield:          Mt- 0x, UWW- 3x's (unless we go back to 05)
Wesley:           Mt- 4x's, UWW- 1x (unless we go back to 05, 06)
NCC:               Mt- 1 x, UWW- 2 x's
Wabash:          Mt-1 x,  UWW- 2 x's
St. Thomas:    Mt- 0, UWW-1x
Bethel:             Mt- 1x, UWW- 0
JCU:                 Mt- 1x, UWW- 0
Wartburg:         Mt- 0, UWW- 2x's

In 2010 UWW also played Franklin and Trine- both teams had top QB's in the country.
This is what I look at when I make the comment that Mt's had an easier path to the Stagg.

+K for your analysis, so are you saying that there is a big difference between Wesley, Bethel, and JCU (teams who faced Mt more) as oppose to Wartburg, St. Thomas, Wabash, NCC, Linfield and UMHB (teams who face UWW more)? Based upon your preferences, I can't see a big difference between Wesley and Linfield during those years.

Thanks. Yes, there is a big difference and the difference gets bigger if we go back to 2005 when the two started meeting. I respect your opinion that you feel Wesley and Linfield are similar- I absolutely don't share that opinion. Yes, I know Wesley beat them in a great comeback.
The other aspect of this is the pure physicality of the games. They take a toll.  Wesley is supremely talented for sure, but I personally don't see them as a physically strong team.

[retagent]

emma - it sounds like you believe that UWW is one of the 2 best teams. Aren't you as guilty as wally of "assuming?"

I don't understand your question.
If you're asking me if I think UWW is one of the 2 best teams right now, the answer is no, I don't believe that.

I may have extrapolated a bit, but your reply about the brackets being constructed to hopefully see the 2 best teams meeting in the Stagg, was in the context of a thread about UWW not being in the same bracket as UMU. If that's not how you meant it, Mea culpa. That's the problem with this. When you aren't able to fully express your idea due to not wanting to fill space unnecessarily, there can be misunderstandings.

[wally_wabash]

I know there are many, many ways to look at the history and form an opinion as to who has played a tougher playoff schedule.  We each have our preferences on what to look at.  I'm on record as having assembled a list of teams I consider top competition based on their track record of playing competitively against the best teams.
Here is the list of the top teams played by Mt and UWW in the playoffs (not Stagg) since 2007:

UMHB:           Mt- 1x, UWW-3 x's (once on road)
Linfield:          Mt- 0x, UWW- 3x's (unless we go back to 05)
Wesley:           Mt- 4x's, UWW- 1x (unless we go back to 05, 06)
NCC:               Mt- 1 x, UWW- 2 x's
Wabash:          Mt-1 x,  UWW- 2 x's
St. Thomas:    Mt- 0, UWW-1x
Bethel:             Mt- 1x, UWW- 0
JCU:                 Mt- 1x, UWW- 0
Wartburg:         Mt- 0, UWW- 2x's

In 2010 UWW also played Franklin and Trine- both teams had top QB's in the country.
This is what I look at when I make the comment that Mt's had an easier path to the Stagg.

You're just not giving any credit to the teams, especially the teams from the East region, that have fallen to Mount Union. 

Again, your argument here is that Mount Union has it easy because they get play a bunch of teams that are bad.  What's your evidence for those teams being bad?   They can't beat Mount Union.  You've created an ouroboros here. 

[AO]

I know there are many, many ways to look at the history and form an opinion as to who has played a tougher playoff schedule.  We each have our preferences on what to look at.  I'm on record as having assembled a list of teams I consider top competition based on their track record of playing competitively against the best teams.
Here is the list of the top teams played by Mt and UWW in the playoffs (not Stagg) since 2007:

UMHB:           Mt- 1x, UWW-3 x's (once on road)
Linfield:          Mt- 0x, UWW- 3x's (unless we go back to 05)
Wesley:           Mt- 4x's, UWW- 1x (unless we go back to 05, 06)
NCC:               Mt- 1 x, UWW- 2 x's
Wabash:          Mt-1 x,  UWW- 2 x's
St. Thomas:    Mt- 0, UWW-1x
Bethel:             Mt- 1x, UWW- 0
JCU:                 Mt- 1x, UWW- 0
Wartburg:         Mt- 0, UWW- 2x's

In 2010 UWW also played Franklin and Trine- both teams had top QB's in the country.
This is what I look at when I make the comment that Mt's had an easier path to the Stagg.

You're just not giving any credit to the teams, especially the teams from the East region, that have fallen to Mount Union. 

Again, your argument here is that Mount Union has it easy because they get play a bunch of teams that are bad.  What's your evidence for those teams being bad?   They can't beat Mount Union.  You've created an ouroboros here.

The main evidence the last 2 years has been Mount not being competitive against Whitewater while multiple West teams were competitive.