Pool C -- 2015

[retagent]

We get it emma, you think that the sun rises and sets with the WIAC. No need to beat that horse to death again.

[wally_wabash]

The bold is where we differ, and I differ with Pat.  I simply cannot accept the thinking that we know UWP or NCC or TLU wasn't capable of pulling off one upset.  Each of these three teams have proved an ability to play competitively against top tier teams.  If a team can compete with the best, then logic states there is a greater chance for an upset.
I'm not sure if you're asking me to slot the left out teams into the bracket so the whole travel thing makes sense.  If you are, I really don't want to get into that.  My point simply is that there absolutely are teams (and I'm not just talking this year) that get left out of Pool C that have a shot at upsetting a top 8 team. 

To be honest, I don't get how anybody can argue that point.  Wesley is in the final 8.  They slipped by NCC on an extra point.  UWP beat NCC.  TLU lost by a touchdown to Hardin Simmons.  Granted, Hardin-Simmons got knocked out, but most on these boards attribute that to unfortunate bracketing. 
These teams all have a much greater chance of upsetting a top seed than Whitworth had.

None of those teams had any better shot to beat Linfield than Whitworth.  Come on now.  You're better than that. 

Where you and I differ on North Central is that you seem to think 2013 North Central still exists and can't stop doting on them and I turned the page when 2013 ended and they turned the roster over.  2015 North Central isn't the same North Central that went to the semis in 2013 and they're definitely not the same North Central that earned your unconditional love by "competing" with Whitewater in 2010.  Teams change.  This year's incarnation of North Central were a good D3 team, but not a D3 team that was going to beat anybody who won in the second round of this year's tournament.  Yes, they did only lose to Wesley by one point, but....I don't know how good Wesley really is this year.  Shh! 

[emma17]

We get it emma, you think that the sun rises and sets with the WIAC. No need to beat that horse to death again.

You again.
When did TLU and NCC join the WIAC?

[ExTartanPlayer]

To be honest, I don't get how anybody can argue that point.  Wesley is in the final 8.  They slipped by NCC on an extra point.

If Wesley loses 66-14 to Mount Union this weekend - a serious possibility - are you still making this argument?

Remember, you've previously discounted other Pool C selections that played close games against playoff teams because the team they lost to eventually lost badly to a national power (Pool C team Muhlenberg lost by one point to Widener last year in the opening round, but since Widener lost badly to Linfield in the quarterfinals, Muhlenberg was deemed an unworthy choice, or at least one that didn't "raise the competitive level of the playoffs" as much as some other teams could have).

It's literally going to be the exact same thing.

NCC lost by a point to a Wesley team that (probably is going to) lose badly to a national power in the quarterfinals.
Muhlenberg lost by a point to a Widener team that lost badly to a national power in the quarterfinals.

So if Wesley gets blown out this weekend, do "close games against Wesley" still count as quality results in the 2016 Emma Pool C Proposal?

[emma17]

The bold is where we differ, and I differ with Pat.  I simply cannot accept the thinking that we know UWP or NCC or TLU wasn't capable of pulling off one upset.  Each of these three teams have proved an ability to play competitively against top tier teams.  If a team can compete with the best, then logic states there is a greater chance for an upset.
I'm not sure if you're asking me to slot the left out teams into the bracket so the whole travel thing makes sense.  If you are, I really don't want to get into that.  My point simply is that there absolutely are teams (and I'm not just talking this year) that get left out of Pool C that have a shot at upsetting a top 8 team. 

To be honest, I don't get how anybody can argue that point.  Wesley is in the final 8.  They slipped by NCC on an extra point.  UWP beat NCC.  TLU lost by a touchdown to Hardin Simmons.  Granted, Hardin-Simmons got knocked out, but most on these boards attribute that to unfortunate bracketing. 
These teams all have a much greater chance of upsetting a top seed than Whitworth had.

None of those teams had any better shot to beat Linfield than Whitworth.  Come on now.  You're better than that. 

Where you and I differ on North Central is that you seem to think 2013 North Central still exists and can't stop doting on them and I turned the page when 2013 ended and they turned the roster over.  2015 North Central isn't the same North Central that went to the semis in 2013 and they're definitely not the same North Central that earned your unconditional love by "competing" with Whitewater in 2010.  Teams change.  This year's incarnation of North Central were a good D3 team, but not a D3 team that was going to beat anybody who won in the second round of this year's tournament.  Yes, they did only lose to Wesley by one point, but....I don't know how good Wesley really is this year.  Shh!

The bolded is the start and finish to this entire discussion.  You believe that Whitworth had an equal shot at beating Linfield as UWP, NCC and TLU.
That's it right there, forget the rest of the discussion.  If you truly believe that, and you know I truly don't believe that, then we won't ever come to agreement.

[wally_wabash]

The bold is where we differ, and I differ with Pat.  I simply cannot accept the thinking that we know UWP or NCC or TLU wasn't capable of pulling off one upset.  Each of these three teams have proved an ability to play competitively against top tier teams.  If a team can compete with the best, then logic states there is a greater chance for an upset.
I'm not sure if you're asking me to slot the left out teams into the bracket so the whole travel thing makes sense.  If you are, I really don't want to get into that.  My point simply is that there absolutely are teams (and I'm not just talking this year) that get left out of Pool C that have a shot at upsetting a top 8 team. 

To be honest, I don't get how anybody can argue that point.  Wesley is in the final 8.  They slipped by NCC on an extra point.  UWP beat NCC.  TLU lost by a touchdown to Hardin Simmons.  Granted, Hardin-Simmons got knocked out, but most on these boards attribute that to unfortunate bracketing. 
These teams all have a much greater chance of upsetting a top seed than Whitworth had.

None of those teams had any better shot to beat Linfield than Whitworth.  Come on now.  You're better than that. 

Where you and I differ on North Central is that you seem to think 2013 North Central still exists and can't stop doting on them and I turned the page when 2013 ended and they turned the roster over.  2015 North Central isn't the same North Central that went to the semis in 2013 and they're definitely not the same North Central that earned your unconditional love by "competing" with Whitewater in 2010.  Teams change.  This year's incarnation of North Central were a good D3 team, but not a D3 team that was going to beat anybody who won in the second round of this year's tournament.  Yes, they did only lose to Wesley by one point, but....I don't know how good Wesley really is this year.  Shh!

The bolded is the start and finish to this entire discussion.  You believe that Whitworth had an equal shot at beating Linfield as UWP, NCC and TLU.
That's it right there, forget the rest of the discussion.  If you truly believe that, and you know I truly don't believe that, then we won't ever come to agreement.

I agree if your point is that UWP, TLU, and NCC would probably beat Whitworth.  But those teams can all be better than Whitworth and still have the same chance to beat Linfield that Whitworth did (specifically, zero percent chance). 

But you're pretty consistently not stopping at the "this group of teams that didn't get in are better than this group of teams that did" line and going straight to "this group of teams that got left out were going to impact the results of the tournament" line.  The first might be true.  The second just isn't, no matter how much you want it to be. 

[emma17]

To be honest, I don't get how anybody can argue that point.  Wesley is in the final 8.  They slipped by NCC on an extra point.

If Wesley loses 66-14 to Mount Union this weekend - a serious possibility - are you still making this argument?

Remember, you've previously discounted other Pool C selections that played close games against playoff teams because the team they lost to eventually lost badly to a national power (Pool C team Muhlenberg lost by one point to Widener last year in the opening round, but since Widener lost badly to Linfield in the quarterfinals, Muhlenberg was deemed an unworthy choice, or at least one that didn't "raise the competitive level of the playoffs" as much as some other teams could have).

It's literally going to be the exact same thing.

NCC lost by a point to a Wesley team that (probably is going to) lose badly to a national power in the quarterfinals.
Muhlenberg lost by a point to a Widener team that lost badly to a national power in the quarterfinals.

So if Wesley gets blown out this weekend, do "close games against Wesley" still count as quality results in the 2016 Emma Pool C Proposal?

Ex, you don't need to remind me of my stance and you surely don't need to continue dropping the Wesley issue.  I think we all, and I do mean all, have recognized how difficult it is to slot Wesley given their horrific performance against Mt Union last year.  I think most people would recognize we have to move beyond one game and look at the body of work.  Wesley at least has a body of work going for it.
And for what it's worth, my point doesn't rely on a close game with Wesley. 
My point is that NCC, UWP and TLU have all proven an ability to play with top tier teams, if you have examples of Whitworth or ONU or Muhlenberg, or Widener doing the same, please share.   

[emma17]

The bold is where we differ, and I differ with Pat.  I simply cannot accept the thinking that we know UWP or NCC or TLU wasn't capable of pulling off one upset.  Each of these three teams have proved an ability to play competitively against top tier teams.  If a team can compete with the best, then logic states there is a greater chance for an upset.
I'm not sure if you're asking me to slot the left out teams into the bracket so the whole travel thing makes sense.  If you are, I really don't want to get into that.  My point simply is that there absolutely are teams (and I'm not just talking this year) that get left out of Pool C that have a shot at upsetting a top 8 team. 

To be honest, I don't get how anybody can argue that point.  Wesley is in the final 8.  They slipped by NCC on an extra point.  UWP beat NCC.  TLU lost by a touchdown to Hardin Simmons.  Granted, Hardin-Simmons got knocked out, but most on these boards attribute that to unfortunate bracketing. 
These teams all have a much greater chance of upsetting a top seed than Whitworth had.

None of those teams had any better shot to beat Linfield than Whitworth.  Come on now.  You're better than that. 

Where you and I differ on North Central is that you seem to think 2013 North Central still exists and can't stop doting on them and I turned the page when 2013 ended and they turned the roster over.  2015 North Central isn't the same North Central that went to the semis in 2013 and they're definitely not the same North Central that earned your unconditional love by "competing" with Whitewater in 2010.  Teams change.  This year's incarnation of North Central were a good D3 team, but not a D3 team that was going to beat anybody who won in the second round of this year's tournament.  Yes, they did only lose to Wesley by one point, but....I don't know how good Wesley really is this year.  Shh!

The bolded is the start and finish to this entire discussion.  You believe that Whitworth had an equal shot at beating Linfield as UWP, NCC and TLU.
That's it right there, forget the rest of the discussion.  If you truly believe that, and you know I truly don't believe that, then we won't ever come to agreement.

I agree if your point is that UWP, TLU, and NCC would probably beat Whitworth.  But those teams can all be better than Whitworth and still have the same chance to beat Linfield that Whitworth did (specifically, zero percent chance). 

But you're pretty consistently not stopping at the "this group of teams that didn't get in are better than this group of teams that did" line and going straight to "this group of teams that got left out were going to impact the results of the tournament" line.  The first might be true.  The second just isn't, no matter how much you want it to be.

And you're consistently twisting my point.  In no shape, way or form am I saying they would have impacted the tournament.  I'm only saying they have a better chance of impacting the tournament than Whitworth had.
Please argue my point, and not yours.

[wally_wabash]

Ex, you don't need to remind me of my stance and you surely don't need to continue dropping the Wesley issue.  I think we all, and I do mean all, have recognized how difficult it is to slot Wesley given their horrific performance against Mt Union last year.  I think most people would recognize we have to move beyond one game and look at the body of work.  Wesley at least has a body of work going for it.
And for what it's worth, my point doesn't rely on a close game with Wesley. 
My point is that NCC, UWP and TLU have all proven an ability to play with top tier teams, if you have examples of Whitworth or ONU or Muhlenberg, or Widener doing the same, please share.   

What exactly is TLU's body of work?  They played one close game with UMHB one time...in torrential rain...over two days.  Is there something else?  Because I don't think there's anything else.  And I thought we shouldn't be using just one game to make these judgments, right? 

I think most people would recognize we have to move beyond one game and look at the body of work. 

Oh yes.  Right. 

[Ron Boerger]

This discussion:

[ExTartanPlayer]

My point is that NCC, UWP and TLU have all proven an ability to play with top tier teams, if you have examples of Whitworth or ONU or Muhlenberg, or Widener doing the same, please share.   

That's just the problem.  Your interpretation of who has "proven an ability to play with top tier teams" is entirely your own.

Muhlenberg lost by one point to a team that got blown out in the quarterfinals.  You dismiss that because Widener isn't a "top tier" team...even though they made the quarterfinals....because they got blown out when they got there.

NCC lost by one point to a team that's (about to) get blown out in the quarterfinals.  You count that because Wesley has a "track record" - even though Wesley's (recent) "track record" against other "top tier" teams includes blowout losses every bit as ugly as that one.

OK, so your point about NCC isn't just limited to one game against Wesley?  Let's go there.  Their other loss came against Wheaton, eliminated in the round of 16 (but "unfortunate bracketing" is the problem there, right?) and UWP, who has a 35-point loss of their own against UWO.  Sure, North Central played some good games against some pretty good teams.  But those "pretty good" teams aren't nearly the "top tier" teams you're making them out to be.  They're just normal pretty-good teams.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Ex, you don't need to remind me of my stance and you surely don't need to continue dropping the Wesley issue.  I think we all, and I do mean all, have recognized how difficult it is to slot Wesley given their horrific performance against Mt Union last year.  I think most people would recognize we have to move beyond one game and look at the body of work.  Wesley at least has a body of work going for it.
And for what it's worth, my point doesn't rely on a close game with Wesley. 
My point is that NCC, UWP and TLU have all proven an ability to play with top tier teams, if you have examples of Whitworth or ONU or Muhlenberg, or Widener doing the same, please share.   

What exactly is TLU's body of work?  They played one close game with UMHB one time...in torrential rain...over two days.  Is there something else?  Because I don't think there's anything else.  And I thought we shouldn't be using just one game to make these judgments, right? 

Well, they also only lost by one touchdown to Hardin-Simmons earlier this year, and yeah, sure Hardin-Simmons got eliminated in the first round but they're definitely a "top tier" team that was just eliminated by "unfortunate bracketing."

[wally_wabash]

Ex, you don't need to remind me of my stance and you surely don't need to continue dropping the Wesley issue.  I think we all, and I do mean all, have recognized how difficult it is to slot Wesley given their horrific performance against Mt Union last year.  I think most people would recognize we have to move beyond one game and look at the body of work.  Wesley at least has a body of work going for it.
And for what it's worth, my point doesn't rely on a close game with Wesley. 
My point is that NCC, UWP and TLU have all proven an ability to play with top tier teams, if you have examples of Whitworth or ONU or Muhlenberg, or Widener doing the same, please share.   

What exactly is TLU's body of work?  They played one close game with UMHB one time...in torrential rain...over two days.  Is there something else?  Because I don't think there's anything else.  And I thought we shouldn't be using just one game to make these judgments, right? 

Well, they also only lost by one touchdown to Hardin-Simmons earlier this year, and yeah, sure Hardin-Simmons got eliminated in the first round but they're definitely a "top tier" team that was just eliminated by "unfortunate bracketing."

This was the first relevant year Hardin-Simmons has had in something like 7-8 seasons.  Maybe Hardin-Simmons is back to being good in the way they were good in early 00s.  Or maybe this is a one year blip...not unlike what we see from the teams that we're supposed to believe have no business being in the tournament.  I don't know.  I'm thoroughly confused as to when I'm supposed to use one single game result to draw a broad, sweeping conclusion about the quality of a team and when I'm supposed to ignore one single game result when drawing a broad, sweeping conclusion about the quality of a team. 

[jknezek]

  I'm thoroughly confused as to when I'm supposed to use one single game result to draw a broad, sweeping conclusion about the quality of a team and when I'm supposed to ignore one single game result when drawing a broad, sweeping conclusion about the quality of a team.

I just snorted my coffee... thanks...

[Ralph Turner]

As the muse of McMinnville said many seasons ago,

"Leave no doubt".