Hot Stove Action

[New_Englander]

I've watched that Yarmouth HS team that Groothoff played for quite a few times over the years. That is a very good high school program which has produced a number of good D3 players over the years: Branden Neal (NYU), Johnny Murphy (Bates), Luke Pierce (Williams), Max Watson (Bates), Chandler Smith (Colby), and Adam LaBrie (Thomas), to name a few, as well as the elder Groothoff. Falmouth HS used to be the gold standard for soccer in Maine, but Yarmouth has taken that mantle with its record 12th state title this past fall.

Talent-wise and athletically they have been pretty consistent over that stretch, although I seem to remember the players being taller and bulkier on aggregate in the early-mid 2000s; perhaps it's because I was a kid back then. Yet while they have definitely been very good over the years, they are, understandably, not as athletic or skilled as, say, an upper-tier D3 team. Groothoff, however, is on a different level than the rest of his teammates, both in terms of skill and athleticism, and I'd agree with truenorth's son that he's definitely a D1-caliber player. For perspective, LaBrie is the program's single-season record goalscorer, and I think Groothoff is on the same level, so I would put him at least in the top 3 kids to ever come out of that program.

(Also note -- that 4:47 mile came as a sophomore, and on a very slow, old Fryeburg Academy track. Curious what he could run now.)

If he ran a 4:47 as a sophomore, he should challenge the best runners on the Messiah roster next preseason. The article Falconer found (https://www.pressherald.com/2017/12/17/boys-soccer-luke-groothoff-yarmouth/) says that he turned down multiple D1 scholarships from schools like New Hampshire and Vermont, the former of which lost to Indiana in the third round of the D1 tournament.

[NEsoccerfan]

Well if Messiah had 10 private liberal arts schools that all had a similar Christian based mission in a 6 hour radius I can promise you they would HAVE to recruit. Recruiting for Nescac Schools is nothing like D1 Basketball in fact it has very strict rules. Coaches can not even make face to face contact with a kid until he steps 1 foot onto the campus. Also there are a ton of rules that I wont bore you with like official and unofficial visits, coaches need to get a preread on a kid with admissions before they can even contact the kid etc etc...Point is it is very restricted even compared to other D3 institutions. The one advantage they do have is they usually get the cream of the crop reaching out to them to begin with so they have a much better starting point than other D3 schools to begin with.

Maybe its me because I really do not understand the whole Christian mission but how is it good for a kid to matriculate to a school of 2,500 kids that are exactly like themselves? I would think the whole point of going to college is to surround yourself with all kinds of kids with different backgrounds and ideas. Not that Nescac schools are exactly a great example of that but you get my point. What is the reasoning for this?

As someone who has followed these boards for several years, I always find these discussions entertaining. I thought I would jump in to try and offer insight into Mr. Right's question.

Speaking from my son's experience, I don't think it's accurate to say that students at Messiah (or any other Christian school) are all the same. Students come from different denominations and have different spiritual, political, moral, etc. views, and not all students are even Christians. Though nowhere near the prestige of a nescac or ivy, Messiah has science, accounting, and engineering programs that are respected in the Mid-Atlantic and thus attract students (I believe I read somewhere that Groothoff scored around a 1500 of 1600 on his SAT). Messiah is certainly not homogenous just because it's a faith-based school, although it may appear so to outsiders. My son found students and faculty at Messiah to be actually more open to dialogue (and disagreement especially) than students at the secular university he attended after.

Academic environment aside, my son will readily admit that the biggest draw for him was the soccer program. It came down to what he valued most in his college experience. The opportunity to compete for national championships, play D1s every year, train 6-7 days a week throughout the winter/spring, and have good clean fun instead of drinking on weekends was more attractive to him than the lower-level D1s or other D3s interested. And it's no secret that Messiah players are held to a certain standard of character and work to integrate their faith into behavior on and off the field. The emphasis on team culture and de-emphasis on personal recognition convinced him as I assume it does recruits now.

For the younger Groothoff, I think his selection as a HS AA this year speaks for itself. As Mr. Right pointed out, his video shows athleticism and vision. I too have been told that he visited at least one Ivy, and I would assume maybe a few nescac's as well. There are openings on the field for him to contribute following the graduation of several starters. His older brother Jon should look to step up next year after seeing solid time as a sub in 22 games, but Luke's video and mile time suggests he'll be more ready physically for the college game.

As Rudy said, Luke Brautigam will be on the team next year, and if he's anything like his older brother, he should be able to contribute in the midfield or backline during his career. Reid Ruork is also coming out of the Wesleyan pipeline that produced the Robbins brothers and Bell. If next year's freshmen can adapt quickly, it will bode well for the Falcons come November.

Just curious - which D1 teams did messiah face while your son was there and what were the results?

[New_Englander]

Just curious - which D1 teams did messiah face while your son was there and what were the results?

I don't want to give too much away but I'll say that messiah beat/tied bucknell several times. After fact checking, I need to correct myself. My son doesn't remember who messiah played his freshman year so it's possible they only played D1s 3 years instead of all 4.

[NEsoccerfan]

Just curious - which D1 teams did messiah face while your son was there and what were the results?

I don't want to give too much away but I'll say that messiah beat/tied bucknell several times. After fact checking, I need to correct myself. My son doesn't remember who messiah played his freshman year so it's possible they only played D1s 3 years instead of all 4.

Thanks. Having played D3 myself (and growing up playing club with a bunch of D1 players), I've always been curious how the top D3 teams would stack up against the low end or mid level D1 teams. When I was in school we scrimmaged Harvard once and BU twice in the spring. We lost all 3, but the games were more competitive than most people would think.

Does anyone else on this thread know of schools that scrimmage D1 teams and/or what the results have been?

[casualfan]

Back a numbers of a years ago, two of the UW schools used to commonly play D1 schools in spring season and preseason.

Oshkosh would play UW-Green Bay every spring for a number of years. Oshkosh won at least 2 of those matchups to my knowledge.

Whitewater played Marquette, UW-Milwaukee, and Northwestern. Beating UWM once and narrowly losing by 1-2 goals in all other matchups.

Like you've mentioned, I think the gap between the top D3 and some D1s is still evident but games can be closer than one would expect, especially in "non-competitive" times like spring season and preseason exhibitions.

[Ommadawn]

Like you've mentioned, I think the gap between the top D3 and some D1s is still evident but games can be closer than one would expect, especially in "non-competitive" times like spring season and preseason exhibitions.

The competitiveness of such games is all the more noteworthy when it is considered that the D1 teams have played 5-6 games (versus 0 for the D3 teams) and D3 teams often have players abroad during the spring semester.

[gustiefan04]

Aurora University in Western Suburban Chicago, played against Bradley University (D1) out of Central IL. I believe Bradley won 3-0, but the game was closer than the score line suggests. Looks like both teams cleared the bench as well, so likely was approached more as a tune-up game.

[franklyspeaking]

Rowan defeated Delaware 6-0 last spring I believe.

[NEsoccerfan]

Rowan defeated Delaware 6-0 last spring I believe.

Wow, really? They did not lose by more than 2 goals all year long.

[franklyspeaking]

Scrimmage, so who knows who played.

[NEsoccerfan]

Scrimmage, so who knows who played.

Still quite impressive!

What about some of the traditional powerhouses (e.g., Trinity/Tufts/Amherst/Williams/Oneonta/St. Thomas/Loras/Calvin)?

[d4_Pace]

Nescacs aren't allowed to have spring activities

[NEsoccerfan]

Nescacs aren't allowed to have spring activities

Or preseason.

[truenorth]

For the younger Groothoff, I think his selection as a HS AA this year speaks for itself. As Mr. Right pointed out, his video shows athleticism and vision. I too have been told that he visited at least one Ivy, and I would assume maybe a few nescac's as well. There are openings on the field for him to contribute following the graduation of several starters. His older brother Jon should look to step up next year after seeing solid time as a sub in 22 games, but Luke's video and mile time suggests he'll be more ready physically for the college game.

I've watched that Yarmouth HS team that Groothoff played for quite a few times over the years. That is a very good high school program which has produced a number of good D3 players over the years: Branden Neal (NYU), Johnny Murphy (Bates), Luke Pierce (Williams), Max Watson (Bates), Chandler Smith (Colby), and Adam LaBrie (Thomas), to name a few, as well as the elder Groothoff. Falmouth HS used to be the gold standard for soccer in Maine, but Yarmouth has taken that mantle with its record 12th state title this past fall.

Talent-wise and athletically they have been pretty consistent over that stretch, although I seem to remember the players being taller and bulkier on aggregate in the early-mid 2000s; perhaps it's because I was a kid back then. Yet while they have definitely been very good over the years, they are, understandably, not as athletic or skilled as, say, an upper-tier D3 team. Groothoff, however, is on a different level than the rest of his teammates, both in terms of skill and athleticism, and I'd agree with truenorth's son that he's definitely a D1-caliber player. For perspective, LaBrie is the program's single-season record goalscorer, and I think Groothoff is on the same level, so I would put him at least in the top 3 kids to ever come out of that program.

(Also note -- that 4:47 mile came as a sophomore, and on a very slow, old Fryeburg Academy track. Curious what he could run now.)

Good summary of recent Yarmouth HS players Blooter.  Prior to the generation you describe, there were the likes of Eoin Lynch (all Big East at Providence), Declan Lynch (Dartmouth) and Nate Dunlap (Cornell) to name a few.  My sons played for arch rival Greely HS, who usually split wins with Yarmouth each season.  My younger son and his Greely 2008 classmates had kids who went on to start for Northeastern (2 kids), Bowdoin, and Wheaton MA...

[blooter442]

Good summary of recent Yarmouth HS players Blooter.  Prior to the generation you describe, there were the likes of Eoin Lynch (all Big East at Providence), Declan Lynch (Dartmouth) and Nate Dunlap (Cornell) to name a few.  My sons played for arch rival Greely HS, who usually split wins with Yarmouth each season.  My younger son and his Greely 2008 classmates had kids who went on to start for Northeastern (2 kids), Bowdoin, and Wheaton MA...

Yeah Greely always had strong teams, particularly that mid-2000s stretch where they won two state titles. Particularly impressive since they had to go on the road pretty much every year due to the Heal Point disadvantage playing a Class B schedule has in Class A seeding, although I think the top teams in B were perhaps a bit stronger than the A teams like Scarborough/etc, so maybe the competition helped them whereas Scarborough would pretty much roll through their SMAA schedule.

My alma mater, Freeport, would manage a good team every few years, and the '05 team beat Falmouth twice and held Greely to a 0-0 tie at home, but there wasn't much year-round dedication to soccer at FHS. Most kids played summer soccer to get the cobwebs out but that was it -- not many kids played club/academy/etc. They were competitive because a lot of the kids were natural athletes and they were usually set up quite defensively, but their soccer smarts and cohesiveness were not as developed as some of the other programs, although Elliot Townsend (graduated '06) was All-State and did play four years at D1 Syracuse. As a high schooler, I played a few summer pickup games with him while he was in college -- he was an animal with a hammer of a shot.

I think Greely was the best team in the state regardless of class when they won it in 2004, and they certainly peaked the best in terms of their October/November form. I also remember that Oliver Blum as a GK won the state's All-American spot as a senior, really impressive for a GK, and if I recall correctly he backstopped Northeastern to an NCAA Tournament appearance.

My cousin played for Yarmouth in '00 and '01 back when Eoin Lynch was there. I went to a couple games but had no real interest in soccer and so wasn't engaged. However, Lynch was the one that stood out to my dad -- apparently he did a rainbow in open play. If I am correct, Lynch has been helping out at Yarmouth for a while, and for the Groothoffs to have that kind of tutelage is immensely helpful.