Mid-Atlantic Region 2016

[PaulNewman]

Are there really that many people who assume Messiah won't will be right back in the national contender/title chase?  Is there some idea that Messiah stopped recruiting or that they are suddenly less appealing to the kind of kids they have appealed to traditionally?  Just 2 brief years ago (when lost to Tufts) they were considered the best team in the country (and by a significant margin).  One year barely missing out on the NCAA tourney doesn't change the overall trajectory of the program earned over a couple of decades (and more than one stellar recruiting class).  Whether they will ever win 3-4 titles in a row as before I think is a different issue as there are now more than a handful of programs that are nationally competitive year in and year out.

[Falconer]

Rudy, I appreciate the correction about Jacob Bender now playing MF rather than outside back--where he was last season, even when he started coming pretty far forward later in the season.  (In the Etown game, for example, he was inside the box during the run of play often enough that I remember noticing it.)  I didn't realize that he's been moved to MF, b/c I have not yet seen a game in person.  I've seen maybe 150 minutes of live streaming, and most of that time the Falcons possessed the ball in their opponents end.  So, seeing Jacob in the middle of the attack wasn't unusual (he did that a lot last year as a defender), whereas it was uncommon to get full views of the defensive end via the camera.  I wondered about it once, when he and his brother played a two-man game bringing the ball up the field, but that's about it. 

Ironically, I'd have to say that his value to the Falcons is probably greater when he plays outside defender, since he brings an attacking dimension that most players at that position can't match, but the change also implies that they've strengthened the back line even while moving him forward, which (if true) is unambiguous good news for the Falcons.  My assessment of his place as an all-timer was based on that rare skill set, which this year apparently is not being as fully utilized. 

As for the view that the Falcons are unlikely to return to the level they reached from 2000 to 2013, I would actually agree.  Many here are much better informed than me about the national scene, and I put stock in their opinions.  From my quite limited knowledge of such things, I would venture to say that at least two trends outside of Messiah are working to that end.  (1) Messiah is no longer the automatic default option for top high school players in the Mid-Atlantic region who want to attend a Christian college.  That was almost certainly true ten years ago, but no longer.  Not b/c anything has really changed at Messiah (after all, McCarty's track record is about as good as Brandt's), but b/c at least two other colleges similar to Messiah have greatly improved their programs: Eastern (where head coach Mark Wagner and two new assistants are former Falcons) and Gordon (where the coach who turned it around grew up near Messiah and was able to recruit successfully in PA and nearby states for some of the same players who used to come almost automatically to Messiah).  (2) At many other D3 colleges, the talent pool is larger b/c nationally soccer is on the rise.  Since professional soccer is still not nearly as big as in Europe, and since D1 soccer is nothing like football or basketball for $$ (every single starter and bench player basically expects a full ride, whereas in soccer that is not true anywhere, since there are fewer than 11.0 scholarships to spread around), it's increasingly true that very talented high school players opt for D3, where they can use their athletic prowess to get into better schools than they might get into otherwise.  In Messiah's case, that's not very important, since their overall selectivity in admissions doesn't compare with that of the Ivies or the NESCAC schools or the UAA schools (I put the Ivies here since they don't give $$ for athletics), but it may mean that a given player would rank Williams or Amherst over Messiah, and would choose Messiah only if he doesn't get into either of the other two schools.  I don't think that most Messiah players are in that category (certainly there are not many from New England in any case), but a few might be. I know the one current freshman starter, Shay Quintin, who graduated from Milton Academy in MA, drew interest from some New England schools but chose Messiah anyway.

In short, it's a more competitive world that the Falcons now find themselves in.  Perhaps that means that Falcon teams won't usually be as good as they were ten years ago, but almost certainly it means that some other teams might be that good (or even better) in a given year.  I actually thought these trends would catch up with the Falcons a little sooner, but I didn't realize just how good the class of Ramirez, Payne, Jack T, and the others was until they were sophomores.  Jack was the only one who started as a freshman.  I don't think many Falcon fans thought they'd win in 2012, but most probably did expect another title from them in 2014.  I doubt many expect one this year, but I wouldn't bet against the current sophomore class winning one before they're done.

[Falconer]

As for recruiting soccer players at Messiah, to the best of my knowledge it's done differently than at many other schools.  To a significant degree, players recruit Messiah rather than the other way around.  That is, they let Messiah know of their interest in playing there, the sooner the better.  Maybe they attend the summer soccer camps, or maybe they just send video clips, but the coaches mostly just let people come to them, and only at some point after that is a player pursued aggressively, in some cases.

Messiah likes to call itself "the best place to play soccer," and for what I can see as an outsider they mean it.  Parents and alumni are very heavily involved in the program.  High school players considering Messiah figure this out before they arrive on campus, and it is probably a major factor in their decision to play at Messiah.  Very few players quit or transfer, and I know of only three cases since 2000 in which players were not invited back for various reasons, but perhaps there are more that I don't know about.  One fact is indisputable: you won't find larger crowds to play for anywhere else in D3, nor even at almost any place in D1.  Nondescript conference opponents even get an audience of several hundred.  It's pretty amazing.  And, the crowds tend to be knowledgeable; they know when a call or non-call is just terrible and appreciate opponents who come to play and don't park the bus.

[rudy]

As for recruiting soccer players at Messiah, to the best of my knowledge it's done differently than at many other schools.  To a significant degree, players recruit Messiah rather than the other way around.  That is, they let Messiah know of their interest in playing there, the sooner the better.  Maybe they attend the summer soccer camps, or maybe they just send video clips, but the coaches mostly just let people come to them, and only at some point after that is a player pursued aggressively, in some cases.

Messiah likes to call itself "the best place to play soccer," and for what I can see as an outsider they mean it.  Parents and alumni are very heavily involved in the program.  High school players considering Messiah figure this out before they arrive on campus, and it is probably a major factor in their decision to play at Messiah.  Very few players quit or transfer, and I know of only three cases since 2000 in which players were not invited back for various reasons, but perhaps there are more that I don't know about.  One fact is indisputable: you won't find larger crowds to play for anywhere else in D3, nor even at almost any place in D1.  Nondescript conference opponents even get an audience of several hundred.  It's pretty amazing.  And, the crowds tend to be knowledgeable; they know when a call or non-call is just terrible and appreciate opponents who come to play and don't park the bus.

You have quite a lot of knowledge of Messiah history falconer! I watched some games last year as a parent of a potential recruit and visited with my son. I had visited 2 years prior with daughter who decided to go to a nescac instead. My son did choose Messiah...it was his 2 day visit that clinched his decision. The culture of the team and players/coaches and genuine interest in each player becoming a man of character is quite a contrast to any other program.  I think that is a recruiting draw as some  visits completely ruled out other schools including d1. 

They may not have the marquee high school player of the year they had with jack Thompson, kai, etc, but what makes a team great is everyone buying in and playing as a team and developing chemistry. I saw it happen on his high school team as they improved each year with a nucleus of players.  They have as good a chance as many to go deep this year but need some things to go their way just like any team that becomes national champs.  I'm looking forward to watching more games over the years and seeing what they can accomplish togetjer. Win or lose he is having a great experience already.

[D3soccerwatcher]

What is everyone's analysis of these scores from this weekend?

F&M - 2
Oswego - 0

Messiah - 3
Oswego - 0

F&M - 0
Olglethorpe - 0

Messiah - 5
Olgelethorpe - 1

[lastguyoffthebench]

In terms of NSCAA... Predictions
1. F&M. 6th
2. E-town 11th
3. Messiah 20th
4. Scranton RV
5. Haverford
6. Eastern
7. Catholic
8. Miseri
9. Gettysburg
10. JHU

Week 2
1.   F&M (3-0-2)
2.   E-town (4-0)
3.   Messiah (3-0-1)
4.   Scranton (4-0)
5.   Eastern (3-0-1)
6.   Haverford (2-1-1) could see them ahead of Eastern.
7.   JHU (3-0-2) not really any strong wins
8.   Gettysburg (2-1) close loss to Scranton and a win over York
9.   Manhattanville (3-2) win over RPI, big game vs Drew next
10. Drew (3-0) with no strong opponents yettt
------------------------------------
Lycoming will crack the rankings once they go over .500
Miseri and Catholic both dropped games.

[Mid-Atlantic Fan]

What is everyone's analysis of these scores from this weekend?

F&M - 2
Oswego - 0

Messiah - 3
Oswego - 0

F&M - 0
Olglethorpe - 0

Messiah - 5
Olgelethorpe - 1

Didn't catch any of these games but only thought could be F&M a little tired from the game the night before? Olgelethorpe probably subbed early after going down by 2 or 3 and rested for F&M as where F&M was still in a closer battle and most likely didn't get as much rest for their starters. With that being said you would expect them to take care of business. Messiah starting to click though. Still don't think they are national title contenders but 2nd/3rd round NCAA is in sights at the moment.

D3SW did you watch any of these games? Any feedback for us that couldn't watch?

[Mid-Atlantic Fan]

In terms of NSCAA... Predictions
1. F&M. 6th
2. E-town 11th
3. Messiah 20th
4. Scranton RV
5. Haverford
6. Eastern
7. Catholic
8. Miseri
9. Gettysburg
10. JHU

Week 2
1.   F&M (3-0-2)
2.   E-town (4-0)
3.   Messiah (3-0-1)
4.   Scranton (4-0)
5.   Eastern (3-0-1)
6.   Haverford (2-1-1) could see them ahead of Eastern.
7.   JHU (3-0-2) not really any strong wins
8.   Gettysburg (2-1) close loss to Scranton and a win over York
9.   Manhattanville (3-2) win over RPI, big game vs Drew next
10. Drew (3-0) with no strong opponents yettt
------------------------------------
Lycoming will crack the rankings once they go over .500
Miseri and Catholic both dropped games.

I would agree with most of this...still would switch Scranton and Etown though 

[rudy]

In terms of NSCAA... Predictions
1. F&M. 6th
2. E-town 11th
3. Messiah 20th
4. Scranton RV
5. Haverford
6. Eastern
7. Catholic
8. Miseri
9. Gettysburg
10. JHU

Week 2
1.   F&M (3-0-2)
2.   E-town (4-0)
3.   Messiah (3-0-1)
4.   Scranton (4-0)
5.   Eastern (3-0-1)
6.   Haverford (2-1-1) could see them ahead of Eastern.
7.   JHU (3-0-2) not really any strong wins
8.   Gettysburg (2-1) close loss to Scranton and a win over York
9.   Manhattanville (3-2) win over RPI, big game vs Drew next
10. Drew (3-0) with no strong opponents yettt
------------------------------------
Lycoming will crack the rankings once they go over .500
Miseri and Catholic both dropped games.

Gettysburg and Messiah play Wed at Gettysburg.  That result will be interesting since Messiah is usually better at home and Gettysburg a solid team.  Could be a tie or one goal game. 

[Mr.Right]

Rudy, I appreciate the correction about Jacob Bender now playing MF rather than outside back--where he was last season, even when he started coming pretty far forward later in the season.  (In the Etown game, for example, he was inside the box during the run of play often enough that I remember noticing it.)  I didn't realize that he's been moved to MF, b/c I have not yet seen a game in person.  I've seen maybe 150 minutes of live streaming, and most of that time the Falcons possessed the ball in their opponents end.  So, seeing Jacob in the middle of the attack wasn't unusual (he did that a lot last year as a defender), whereas it was uncommon to get full views of the defensive end via the camera.  I wondered about it once, when he and his brother played a two-man game bringing the ball up the field, but that's about it. 

Ironically, I'd have to say that his value to the Falcons is probably greater when he plays outside defender, since he brings an attacking dimension that most players at that position can't match, but the change also implies that they've strengthened the back line even while moving him forward, which (if true) is unambiguous good news for the Falcons.  My assessment of his place as an all-timer was based on that rare skill set, which this year apparently is not being as fully utilized. 

As for the view that the Falcons are unlikely to return to the level they reached from 2000 to 2013, I would actually agree.  Many here are much better informed than me about the national scene, and I put stock in their opinions.  From my quite limited knowledge of such things, I would venture to say that at least two trends outside of Messiah are working to that end.  (1) Messiah is no longer the automatic default option for top high school players in the Mid-Atlantic region who want to attend a Christian college.  That was almost certainly true ten years ago, but no longer.  Not b/c anything has really changed at Messiah (after all, McCarty's track record is about as good as Brandt's), but b/c at least two other colleges similar to Messiah have greatly improved their programs: Eastern (where head coach Mark Wagner and two new assistants are former Falcons) and Gordon (where the former coach who turned it around grew up near Messiah and was able to recruit successfully in PA and nearby states for some of the same players who used to come almost automatically to Messiah).  (2) At many other D3 colleges, the talent pool is larger b/c nationally soccer is on the rise.  Since professional soccer is still not nearly as big as in Europe, and since D1 soccer is nothing like football or basketball for $$ (every single starter and bench player basically expects a full ride, whereas in soccer that is not true anywhere, since there are fewer than 11.0 scholarships to spread around), it's increasingly true that very talented high school players opt for D3, where they can use their athletic prowess to get into better schools than they might get into otherwise.  In Messiah's case, that's not very important, since their overall selectivity in admissions doesn't compare with that of the Ivies or the NESCAC schools or the UAA schools (I put the Ivies here since they don't give $$ for athletics), but it may mean that a given player would rank Williams or Amherst over Messiah, and would choose Messiah only if he doesn't get into either of the other two schools.  I don't think that most Messiah players are in that category (certainly there are not many from New England in any case), but a few might be. I know the one current freshman starter, Shay Quintin, who graduated from Milton Academy in MA, drew interest from some New England schools but chose Messiah anyway.

In short, it's a more competitive world that the Falcons now find themselves in.  Perhaps that means that Falcon teams won't usually be as good as they were ten years ago, but almost certainly it means that some other teams might be that good (or even better) in a given year.  I actually thought these trends would catch up with the Falcons a little sooner, but I didn't realize just how good the class of Ramirez, Payne, Jack T, and the others was until they were sophomores.  Jack was the only one who started as a freshman.  I don't think many Falcon fans thought they'd win in 2012, but most probably did expect another title from them in 2014.  I doubt many expect one this year, but I wouldn't bet against the current sophomore class winning one before they're done.

Im sorry but I have a hard time believing that Messiah's downfall is because schools like Gordon and Eastern are starting to up their recruiting. Not one player om Gordon's roster would have played significant minutes on Messiah's best teams. Also, saying Messiah's problems are solved and everything is back to normal because of this past weekend is a bit much. Let's wait until they play some difficult games.

[Mid-Atlantic Fan]

MAF Power Rankings

1. F&M 3-0-2 big win over Lycoming but stumbled vs Ogelthorpe
2. Scranton 4-0-0  4 shut-outs including a quality win over Gettysburg
3. Etown 4-0-0  1 goal allowed and no real big time wins yet but they look determined after last season's snub
4. Haverford 2-1-1  a tough loss @Brandeis and a tie vs Lycoming has the Fords in a decent spot heading into conference 
5. Messiah 3-0-1  the Falcons looked poised to be a contender this season w/a strong start but the toughest tests remain
6. Eastern 3-0-1  a quality tie vs Lycoming but only Salisbury remains to pick up a possible ranked win
7. Gettysburg 2-1-0  tough 1 goal loss to Scranton but has rebounded nicely w/wins vs York & Kings
8. Lycoming 1-2-2  2 losses out of the gate vs Rowan & F&M but fought through the pressure w/2 road ties @Eastern/Haverford
9. Hopkins 3-0-2   no real tests yet but 3 straight shut-outs catches the eye
10. Manhattanville 3-2-0  a nice win over RPI and a tough loss to Oneonta St

[Shooter McGavin]

In terms of NSCAA... Predictions
1. F&M. 6th
2. E-town 11th
3. Messiah 20th
4. Scranton RV
5. Haverford
6. Eastern
7. Catholic
8. Miseri
9. Gettysburg
10. JHU

Week 2
1.   F&M (3-0-2)
2.   E-town (4-0)
3.   Messiah (3-0-1)
4.   Scranton (4-0)
5.   Eastern (3-0-1)
6.   Haverford (2-1-1) could see them ahead of Eastern.
7.   JHU (3-0-2) not really any strong wins
8.   Gettysburg (2-1) close loss to Scranton and a win over York
9.   Manhattanville (3-2) win over RPI, big game vs Drew next
10. Drew (3-0) with no strong opponents yettt
------------------------------------
Lycoming will crack the rankings once they go over .500
Miseri and Catholic both dropped games.

Drew is 3-1 and has played a joke of a schedule.

[Shooter McGavin]

Rudy, I appreciate the correction about Jacob Bender now playing MF rather than outside back--where he was last season, even when he started coming pretty far forward later in the season.  (In the Etown game, for example, he was inside the box during the run of play often enough that I remember noticing it.)  I didn't realize that he's been moved to MF, b/c I have not yet seen a game in person.  I've seen maybe 150 minutes of live streaming, and most of that time the Falcons possessed the ball in their opponents end.  So, seeing Jacob in the middle of the attack wasn't unusual (he did that a lot last year as a defender), whereas it was uncommon to get full views of the defensive end via the camera.  I wondered about it once, when he and his brother played a two-man game bringing the ball up the field, but that's about it. 

Ironically, I'd have to say that his value to the Falcons is probably greater when he plays outside defender, since he brings an attacking dimension that most players at that position can't match, but the change also implies that they've strengthened the back line even while moving him forward, which (if true) is unambiguous good news for the Falcons.  My assessment of his place as an all-timer was based on that rare skill set, which this year apparently is not being as fully utilized. 

As for the view that the Falcons are unlikely to return to the level they reached from 2000 to 2013, I would actually agree.  Many here are much better informed than me about the national scene, and I put stock in their opinions.  From my quite limited knowledge of such things, I would venture to say that at least two trends outside of Messiah are working to that end.  (1) Messiah is no longer the automatic default option for top high school players in the Mid-Atlantic region who want to attend a Christian college.  That was almost certainly true ten years ago, but no longer.  Not b/c anything has really changed at Messiah (after all, McCarty's track record is about as good as Brandt's), but b/c at least two other colleges similar to Messiah have greatly improved their programs: Eastern (where head coach Mark Wagner and two new assistants are former Falcons) and Gordon (where the former coach who turned it around grew up near Messiah and was able to recruit successfully in PA and nearby states for some of the same players who used to come almost automatically to Messiah).  (2) At many other D3 colleges, the talent pool is larger b/c nationally soccer is on the rise.  Since professional soccer is still not nearly as big as in Europe, and since D1 soccer is nothing like football or basketball for $$ (every single starter and bench player basically expects a full ride, whereas in soccer that is not true anywhere, since there are fewer than 11.0 scholarships to spread around), it's increasingly true that very talented high school players opt for D3, where they can use their athletic prowess to get into better schools than they might get into otherwise.  In Messiah's case, that's not very important, since their overall selectivity in admissions doesn't compare with that of the Ivies or the NESCAC schools or the UAA schools (I put the Ivies here since they don't give $$ for athletics), but it may mean that a given player would rank Williams or Amherst over Messiah, and would choose Messiah only if he doesn't get into either of the other two schools.  I don't think that most Messiah players are in that category (certainly there are not many from New England in any case), but a few might be. I know the one current freshman starter, Shay Quintin, who graduated from Milton Academy in MA, drew interest from some New England schools but chose Messiah anyway.

In short, it's a more competitive world that the Falcons now find themselves in.  Perhaps that means that Falcon teams won't usually be as good as they were ten years ago, but almost certainly it means that some other teams might be that good (or even better) in a given year.  I actually thought these trends would catch up with the Falcons a little sooner, but I didn't realize just how good the class of Ramirez, Payne, Jack T, and the others was until they were sophomores.  Jack was the only one who started as a freshman.  I don't think many Falcon fans thought they'd win in 2012, but most probably did expect another title from them in 2014.  I doubt many expect one this year, but I wouldn't bet against the current sophomore class winning one before they're done.

Im sorry but I have a hard time believing that Messiah's downfall is because schools like Gordon and Eastern are starting to up their recruiting. Not one player om Gordon's roster would have played significant minutes on Messiah's best teams. Also, saying Messiah's problems are solved and everything is back to normal because of this past weekend is a bit much. Let's wait until they play some difficult games.

Spot on Mr. Right! 

[Shooter McGavin]

MAF Power Rankings

1. F&M 3-0-2 big win over Lycoming but stumbled vs Ogelthorpe
2. Scranton 4-0-0  4 shut-outs including a quality win over Gettysburg
3. Etown 4-0-0  1 goal allowed and no real big time wins yet but they look determined after last season's snub
4. Haverford 2-1-1  a tough loss @Brandeis and a tie vs Lycoming has the Fords in a decent spot heading into conference 
5. Messiah 3-0-1  the Falcons looked poised to be a contender this season w/a strong start but the toughest tests remain
6. Eastern 3-0-1  a quality tie vs Lycoming but only Salisbury remains to pick up a possible ranked win
7. Gettysburg 2-1-0  tough 1 goal loss to Scranton but has rebounded nicely w/wins vs York & Kings
8. Lycoming 1-2-2  2 losses out of the gate vs Rowan & F&M but fought through the pressure w/2 road ties @Eastern/Haverford
9. Hopkins 3-0-2   no real tests yet but 3 straight shut-outs catches the eye
10. Manhattanville 3-2-0  a nice win over RPI and a tough loss to Oneonta St

This all looks good MAF. I would consider switching Hopkins and Lycoming given the records, but based on SOS I can see why Lyco is ahead of them. We will see Hopkins true colors in conference. Also, as mentioned before, Scranton and Etown are toss ups. Maybe a T-2 for both? Just a thought 

Some key take aways from the start of this season...

How bad is Dickinson? Can they rebound in conference?
How good is Messiah? How will they do when they play some tough teams?
Will Etown be a bust come conference tournament time?
Can Scranton sustain momentum?
Eastern and Gettysburg flying under the radar...is this good or bad for both?
Can Lycoming get back on track after early season woes?
Can Manhattanville keep pace in the Freedom with Eastern?

Any other talking points I may have missed? Lots to discuss only a few weeks in!

[lastguyoffthebench]

... I'd put Arcadia at 10th, LVC at 11th, Hood at 12th, Drew at 13th

Massey has:

1 Messiah
2 Etown
3 Haverford
4 F&M
5 Scranton
6 Lycoming
7 Eastern
8 Gettysburg