Mid-Atlantic Region 2016

[PaulNewman]

This is getting a little far afield from the thread title, but I wanted to comment on the comment that Messiah lost in the Elite 8 in 2014 even though they were the better team.

I both agree and disagree with that.  Let me explain.  When that game began I don't think there is any question that Messiah was the better team, and perhaps even during the game.  But, first of all, Tufts was better than most of us knew as very few were focused on Tufts as a potential serious contender at the beginning of the tournament.  They were viewed as a very talented team that struggled to put everything together.  And this is my bigger point....those games are transformative.  Tufts at the end of the Messiah game was a different team than at the first whistle.  You feel differently about yourself, and you're at that phase a team that has just dethroned one of the great teams in history.  Tufts then went forward and fairly comfortably handled OWU and Wheaton (Ill) back-to-back.  They looked like the best team in the final four, and if they had played Messiah in the national final the game would have seemed like much more of a toss-up than when the two played in the Elite 8.

Of course I have an indulgent Kenyon analogy.  Kenyon was not really on the map in 2013 (and no where close to the attention the Lords have garnered in years since then) UNTIL, without much fanfare, they beat the defending national finalist Ohio Northern and then a very good Wheaton (Ill) team on Wheaton's own field.  Even then, those looked like some excellent program wins but no one gave Kenyon a shot playing Messiah at Messiah.  That Messiah game, even more than the 2 wins against ONU and Wheaton, really catapulted the Kenyon program, and even though they lost.  They tasted top level competition (against arguably the greatest D3 team ever) and were inside of 2 minutes of going to overtime.  The Kenyon program has been different and viewed differently ever since that game...from not even really registering on the D3 map to now having a season that ends in the Sweet 16 or short of the Final Four in some ways being considered a disappointment or falling short of expectations.  Now just imagine if the bounce of the ball that night had resulted in Kenyon actually winning.  There is a difference between a truly longshot upset (e.g. Neumann, Rose-Hulman vs OWU in 2013) and one where a program announces its arrival and indeed transforms further in a positive way as a result of the experience.  That night at Shoemaker was one of the highlights of all the years of youth, high school and college soccer that I followed as a parent.  And I almost got to be the parent of a kid who got a goal and the game winning assist as around the 75th minute he put in a cross that left his teammate with a sitter from 6 yards out that was ripped over the bar (and that the kid would have finished 8 times out of 10).  Messiah certainly might have tied it up after that, but both teams would have played the last 15 minutes differently.  How the ball bounces impacts a lot of people (even if it shouldn't).  My kid is happily (and stressfully) 6 weeks into med school and certainly isn't focused much on soccer (getting his updates from me), while I on the other hand am on D3soccer.com a full 3 years later searching for something that I don't even know what I'm searching for (but that has a heck of a lot to do with ultimate narcissistic fulfillment and glory).

[rudy]

Does your house include a one semester meal plan and all utilities covered?  haha

I've said on this board before that Messiah also benefits from a weak conference, most starters only had to play 60-70 min throughout the season.   I've always felt this gave them an even stronger case to make deeper runs in the tournament... a main reason why you can NEVER count them out.   

I'd bet my house that Messiah win the MACC... (sorry MAF!)

The 2014 Messiah team that lost to Tufts was probably the best SR class they've ever had.   The 2013 team probably had the best front 6 in the history of D3 (or at least the last 25 years), with strong talent on the back line as well.   The Tufts team from 2014 was incredibly disciplined and excellent on the counter attack. 


There are not 4 clear cut favorites, I can't even say with confidence what region(s) the FINAL FOUR teams will come from!    At the moment I'm going with New England, Mid Atlantic, South Atlantic, Great Lakes...

You could also argue that Nescac teams benefit from a strong conference. They typically get 3 teams in the tournament even though the bottom of nescac us nothing special.  So very good teams from other conferences often get left out if they don't win conf tournament while nescac team with 4-5 losses get a bid. I think 2 from nescac is fair but 3 seems excessive.

NESCAC almost always deserves 3 bids and sometimes 4.  Same with the UAA.  A 2nd place team in a weak conference or regular season winner who loses in their tournament generally needs a sterling record and a good to very good strength of schedule outside the conference with good results.  That's how Lycoming is trying to cover themselves this year, and we'll see if that works if they don't win the conference tournament.  If this is your first year there are going to be a lot of things that don't make sense that you'll figure out over the next couple of years.  After 5-6 years I'm still learning things that I didn't fully understand (like how the NSCAA rankings work for example and last year how important SoS is in terms of the other regional rankings (yes, the NCAA regional rankings count and the NSCAA regional rankings don't) and their importance in termts of who gets bids and who doesn't).

Well definitely not 4! I have watched nescac games over the years. The idea that the conference is so strong from top to bottom is flawed. Top 4 in a given year are tough games but nobody can  tell me that Bates , Colby, etc would be in top 2 in most conferences.  I would like to see more games between nescac and teams like Kenyon, haverford, f&m, Lycoming, Messiah, etc.  My son was recruited by most of the current top 10 including Kenyon, Brandeis, half of the nescac schools. Etc  so I have watched a lot of them play. 

[rudy]

This is getting a little far afield from the thread title, but I wanted to comment on the comment that Messiah lost in the Elite 8 in 2014 even though they were the better team.

I both agree and disagree with that.  Let me explain.  When that game began I don't think there is any question that Messiah was the better team, and perhaps even during the game.  But, first of all, Tufts was better than most of us knew as very few were focused on Tufts as a potential serious contender at the beginning of the tournament.  They were viewed as a very talented team that struggled to put everything together.  And this is my bigger point....those games are transformative.  Tufts at the end of the Messiah game was a different team than at the first whistle.  You feel differently about yourself, and you're at that phase a team that has just dethroned one of the great teams in history.  Tufts then went forward and fairly comfortably handled OWU and Wheaton (Ill) back-to-back.  They looked like the best team in the final four, and if they had played Messiah in the national final the game would have seemed like much more of a toss-up than when the two played in the Elite 8.

Of course I have an indulgent Kenyon analogy.  Kenyon was not really on the map in 2013 (and no where close to the attention the Lords have garnered in years since then) UNTIL, without much fanfare, they beat the defending national finalist Ohio Northern and then a very good Wheaton (Ill) team on Wheaton's own field.  Even then, those looked like some excellent program wins but no one gave Kenyon a shot playing Messiah at Messiah.  That Messiah game, even more than the 2 wins against ONU and Wheaton, really catapulted the Kenyon program, and even though they lost.  They tasted top level competition (against arguably the greatest D3 team ever) and were inside of 2 minutes of going to overtime.  The Kenyon program has been different and viewed differently ever since that game...from not even really registering on the D3 map to now having a season that ends in the Sweet 16 or short of the Final Four in some ways being considered a disappointment or falling short of expectations.  Now just imagine if the bounce of the ball that night had resulted in Kenyon actually winning.  There is a difference between a truly longshot upset (e.g. Neumann, Rose-Hulman vs OWU in 2013) and one where a program announces its arrival and indeed transforms further in a positive way as a result of the experience.  That night at Shoemaker was one of the highlights of all the years of youth, high school and college soccer that I followed as a parent.  And I almost got to be the parent of a kid who got a goal and the game winning assist as around the 75th minute he put in a cross that left his teammate with a sitter from 6 yards out that was ripped over the bar (and that the kid would have finished 8 times out of 10).  Messiah certainly might have tied it up after that, but both teams would have played the last 15 minutes differently.  How the ball bounces impacts a lot of people (even if it shouldn't).  My kid is happily (and stressfully) 6 weeks into med school and certainly isn't focused much on soccer (getting his updates from me), while I on the other hand am on D3soccer.com a full 3 years later searching for something that I don't even know what I'm searching for (but that has a heck of a lot to do with ultimate narcissistic fulfillment and glory).

Kenyon got smart and recruits from the NEPSAC leagues now. In September tournament they can go scout top players in the league at one location.  Tons of coaches at this tournament... invitation tournament.

[Dave B]

My son was recruited by most of the current top 10 including Kenyon, Brandeis, half of the nescac schools. Etc  so I have watched a lot of them play.

Having watched Shay play in person (at the Roanoke game), I'm very glad he picked Messiah!  He looks like he'll be an outstanding player for the Falcons.

[Ommadawn]

I would like to see more games between nescac and teams like Kenyon, haverford, f&m, Lycoming, Messiah, etc.

The late start of the NESCAC season makes it difficult to schedule exciting prospective match-ups along the lines of what you suggest.

[CharmCityFC]

Does anyone know why the Etown-PSU Harrisburg game scheduled for tomorrow at 1:00pm was cancelled?

[rudy]

This is getting a little far afield from the thread title, but I wanted to comment on the comment that Messiah lost in the Elite 8 in 2014 even though they were the better team.

I both agree and disagree with that.  Let me explain.  When that game began I don't think there is any question that Messiah was the better team, and perhaps even during the game.  But, first of all, Tufts was better than most of us knew as very few were focused on Tufts as a potential serious contender at the beginning of the tournament.  They were viewed as a very talented team that struggled to put everything together.  And this is my bigger point....those games are transformative.  Tufts at the end of the Messiah game was a different team than at the first whistle.  You feel differently about yourself, and you're at that phase a team that has just dethroned one of the great teams in history.  Tufts then went forward and fairly comfortably handled OWU and Wheaton (Ill) back-to-back.  They looked like the best team in the final four, and if they had played Messiah in the national final the game would have seemed like much more of a toss-up than when the two played in the Elite 8.

Of course I have an indulgent Kenyon analogy.  Kenyon was not really on the map in 2013 (and no where close to the attention the Lords have garnered in years since then) UNTIL, without much fanfare, they beat the defending national finalist Ohio Northern and then a very good Wheaton (Ill) team on Wheaton's own field.  Even then, those looked like some excellent program wins but no one gave Kenyon a shot playing Messiah at Messiah.  That Messiah game, even more than the 2 wins against ONU and Wheaton, really catapulted the Kenyon program, and even though they lost.  They tasted top level competition (against arguably the greatest D3 team ever) and were inside of 2 minutes of going to overtime.  The Kenyon program has been different and viewed differently ever since that game...from not even really registering on the D3 map to now having a season that ends in the Sweet 16 or short of the Final Four in some ways being considered a disappointment or falling short of expectations.  Now just imagine if the bounce of the ball that night had resulted in Kenyon actually winning.  There is a difference between a truly longshot upset (e.g. Neumann, Rose-Hulman vs OWU in 2013) and one where a program announces its arrival and indeed transforms further in a positive way as a result of the experience.  That night at Shoemaker was one of the highlights of all the years of youth, high school and college soccer that I followed as a parent.  And I almost got to be the parent of a kid who got a goal and the game winning assist as around the 75th minute he put in a cross that left his teammate with a sitter from 6 yards out that was ripped over the bar (and that the kid would have finished 8 times out of 10).  Messiah certainly might have tied it up after that, but both teams would have played the last 15 minutes differently.  How the ball bounces impacts a lot of people (even if it shouldn't).  My kid is happily (and stressfully) 6 weeks into med school and certainly isn't focused much on soccer (getting his updates from me), while I on the other hand am on D3soccer.com a full 3 years later searching for something that I don't even know what I'm searching for (but that has a heck of a lot to do with ultimate narcissistic fulfillment and glory).

Oh.. congrats on med school acceptance for your son...now that's an accomplishment...tougher than winning national championship 😉

[rudy]

This is getting a little far afield from the thread title, but I wanted to comment on the comment that Messiah lost in the Elite 8 in 2014 even though they were the better team.

I both agree and disagree with that.  Let me explain.  When that game began I don't think there is any question that Messiah was the better team, and perhaps even during the game.  But, first of all, Tufts was better than most of us knew as very few were focused on Tufts as a potential serious contender at the beginning of the tournament.  They were viewed as a very talented team that struggled to put everything together.  And this is my bigger point....those games are transformative.  Tufts at the end of the Messiah game was a different team than at the first whistle.  You feel differently about yourself, and you're at that phase a team that has just dethroned one of the great teams in history.  Tufts then went forward and fairly comfortably handled OWU and Wheaton (Ill) back-to-back.  They looked like the best team in the final four, and if they had played Messiah in the national final the game would have seemed like much more of a toss-up than when the two played in the Elite 8.

Of course I have an indulgent Kenyon analogy.  Kenyon was not really on the map in 2013 (and no where close to the attention the Lords have garnered in years since then) UNTIL, without much fanfare, they beat the defending national finalist Ohio Northern and then a very good Wheaton (Ill) team on Wheaton's own field.  Even then, those looked like some excellent program wins but no one gave Kenyon a shot playing Messiah at Messiah.  That Messiah game, even more than the 2 wins against ONU and Wheaton, really catapulted the Kenyon program, and even though they lost.  They tasted top level competition (against arguably the greatest D3 team ever) and were inside of 2 minutes of going to overtime.  The Kenyon program has been different and viewed differently ever since that game...from not even really registering on the D3 map to now having a season that ends in the Sweet 16 or short of the Final Four in some ways being considered a disappointment or falling short of expectations.  Now just imagine if the bounce of the ball that night had resulted in Kenyon actually winning.  There is a difference between a truly longshot upset (e.g. Neumann, Rose-Hulman vs OWU in 2013) and one where a program announces its arrival and indeed transforms further in a positive way as a result of the experience.  That night at Shoemaker was one of the highlights of all the years of youth, high school and college soccer that I followed as a parent.  And I almost got to be the parent of a kid who got a goal and the game winning assist as around the 75th minute he put in a cross that left his teammate with a sitter from 6 yards out that was ripped over the bar (and that the kid would have finished 8 times out of 10).  Messiah certainly might have tied it up after that, but both teams would have played the last 15 minutes differently.  How the ball bounces impacts a lot of people (even if it shouldn't).  My kid is happily (and stressfully) 6 weeks into med school and certainly isn't focused much on soccer (getting his updates from me), while I on the other hand am on D3soccer.com a full 3 years later searching for something that I don't even know what I'm searching for (but that has a heck of a lot to do with ultimate narcissistic fulfillment and glory).

Oh.. congrats on med school acceptance for your son...now that's an accomplishment...tougher than winning national championship 😉

Full disclosure I have a daughter at Kenyon now..last year!

[rudy]

Game of the day for this region Scranton at Lycoming. Lycoming needs this game...they do not want another loss on their record. Home game too.

Predict Lycoming 2-1.

[Shooter McGavin]

Scranton still underrated and Lycoming a bit overrated this season. Only benefit is that it's at home. I'm going Scranton 2-1. Lycoming defense is out of sorts this season and Scranton needs a big time win.

[D3soccerwatcher]

This is getting a little far afield from the thread title, but I wanted to comment on the comment that Messiah lost in the Elite 8 in 2014 even though they were the better team.

I both agree and disagree with that.  Let me explain.  When that game began I don't think there is any question that Messiah was the better team, and perhaps even during the game.  But, first of all, Tufts was better than most of us knew as very few were focused on Tufts as a potential serious contender at the beginning of the tournament.  They were viewed as a very talented team that struggled to put everything together.  And this is my bigger point....those games are transformative.  Tufts at the end of the Messiah game was a different team than at the first whistle.  You feel differently about yourself, and you're at that phase a team that has just dethroned one of the great teams in history.  Tufts then went forward and fairly comfortably handled OWU and Wheaton (Ill) back-to-back.  They looked like the best team in the final four, and if they had played Messiah in the national final the game would have seemed like much more of a toss-up than when the two played in the Elite 8.

Of course I have an indulgent Kenyon analogy.  Kenyon was not really on the map in 2013 (and no where close to the attention the Lords have garnered in years since then) UNTIL, without much fanfare, they beat the defending national finalist Ohio Northern and then a very good Wheaton (Ill) team on Wheaton's own field.  Even then, those looked like some excellent program wins but no one gave Kenyon a shot playing Messiah at Messiah.  That Messiah game, even more than the 2 wins against ONU and Wheaton, really catapulted the Kenyon program, and even though they lost.  They tasted top level competition (against arguably the greatest D3 team ever) and were inside of 2 minutes of going to overtime.  The Kenyon program has been different and viewed differently ever since that game...from not even really registering on the D3 map to now having a season that ends in the Sweet 16 or short of the Final Four in some ways being considered a disappointment or falling short of expectations.  Now just imagine if the bounce of the ball that night had resulted in Kenyon actually winning.  There is a difference between a truly longshot upset (e.g. Neumann, Rose-Hulman vs OWU in 2013) and one where a program announces its arrival and indeed transforms further in a positive way as a result of the experience.  That night at Shoemaker was one of the highlights of all the years of youth, high school and college soccer that I followed as a parent.  And I almost got to be the parent of a kid who got a goal and the game winning assist as around the 75th minute he put in a cross that left his teammate with a sitter from 6 yards out that was ripped over the bar (and that the kid would have finished 8 times out of 10).  Messiah certainly might have tied it up after that, but both teams would have played the last 15 minutes differently.  How the ball bounces impacts a lot of people (even if it shouldn't).  My kid is happily (and stressfully) 6 weeks into med school and certainly isn't focused much on soccer (getting his updates from me), while I on the other hand am on D3soccer.com a full 3 years later searching for something that I don't even know what I'm searching for (but that has a heck of a lot to do with ultimate narcissistic fulfillment and glory).

I personally attended that game.   When I heard Kenyon beat Wheaton at Wheaton's home field I knew that they had something special going.  Yes you are correct, Messiah had a spectacular team that year and Kenyon gave them a great game.  I specifically remember the 6-yard opportunity that was kicked over the goal.  I couldn't believe the ball didn't go into that open net.  But as time has shown, it's is difficult for any team to travel to Grantham, PA and sneak out a win on Messiah's home turf.  I must say your son and his team played a great game. And you are correct, that run they made that year put the program on the map.  HUGE congrats!  Being part of the group of players that propels a team to a new level is something to be proud of.  All the best to your son as he starts Med school - I'm sure he will be successful.  You obviously did a great job as his Dad.

[rudy]

Scranton still underrated and Lycoming a bit overrated this season. Only benefit is that it's at home. I'm going Scranton 2-1. Lycoming defense is out of sorts this season and Scranton needs a big time win.

I was close...  Lycoming 3-1..
Lycoming had more riding on this game than Scranton..almost a must win for them..

[PaulNewman]

D3SW, thanks.  I will never forget the atmosphere that night (and the bitter, bitter cold that dominated many venues that weekend).  I have to admit the mission of schools like Messiah is a bit foreign to me, but I respect it, and Messiah soccer is pure class all around.  After the game the Messiah players reportedly were incredibly gracious (easier of course when you win).  I was in awe watching how good Messiah was and Kenyon had to play out of their minds just to make it competitive.  I wish Andrew Parmelee had been fully healthy.  He struggled with a torn hamstring most of the season and just 2 weeks before had been declared done for the season, but he played gallantly.  Similar to the next year with Sam Justice.  As I wrote in detail last year, the Kenyon class that were juniors that year was special.  A NCAA Postgrad scholar winner, a Fulbright kid, and 3 other kids currently in med school.  Perhaps bigger D3s like Wash U or Hopkins have had 3 or more kids in the same class from the same team go to med school but I'm guessing that is pretty rare for D3s roughly the size of Kenyon.

[NEPAFAN]

Scranton still underrated and Lycoming a bit overrated this season. Only benefit is that it's at home. I'm going Scranton 2-1. Lycoming defense is out of sorts this season and Scranton needs a big time win.

I was close...  Lycoming 3-1..
Lycoming had more riding on this game than Scranton..almost a must win for them..

Good action packed game. Would have preferred another result though.

[rudy]

My son was recruited by most of the current top 10 including Kenyon, Brandeis, half of the nescac schools. Etc  so I have watched a lot of them play.

Having watched Shay play in person (at the Roanoke game), I'm very glad he picked Messiah!  He looks like he'll be an outstanding player for the Falcons.

Thank you David B..I'm glad as well! I've yet to see him play in person at Messiah so you have one up on me.