2017 Great Lakes Region

[UAA Insider]

Is anyone watching this CWRU vs JCU game? Might be some bias due to my nephew playing for CWRU but that PK call was terrible! JCU looks solid, but not top 10 worthy.

[bestfancle]

Is anyone watching this CWRU vs JCU game? Might be some bias due to my nephew playing for CWRU but that PK call was terrible! JCU looks solid, but not top 10 worthy.

That was a PK. Not a horrible foul, but I've always hated if refs make different calls based on location of the foul. That happens outside the box, it's a free kick, and no one complains. JCU doesn't look as good as they have in recent games, Case is always a tough opponent.

[Domino1195]

Miserable outing for Kenyon.  Yes, conditions were poor but zero excuse for not scoring.  Chance after chance after chance around the six or closer.  And another week will go by with some thinking Marietta is decent but they aren't.  They kicked the ball out at every chance, threw the ball as high in the air as they could, and kicked the ball away every time they gave away a re-start.  Kudos to the Marietta GK who made some miraculous saves in very poor conditions for a GK.  The even worse news from this vantage point is that Kenyon indeed is just a notch over mediocre right now.  The defense at full strength is still probably top-tier but the troubles scoring is going to force the defense out of shape with pressure on Myers and Wynn to keep pulling out wins for them.  The senior class needs to step up and the Lords need to get in a habit of scoring early instead of leaving games in the balance 0-0 or 1-1 late.

Not a great result for Oberlin either, but Grove City is pretty good and letdown after Calvin probably to be expected.

I think Ryan addressed the  potential that the variance between the NCAC and other GL  teams might be lessening. Capital beat Oberlin 4-0 in preseason - not making too much of a scrimmage but it was a dominate result. The OAC is fairing well against the mighty NCAC - a brand - that expects perennial exaltation in spite of reality. The games are played on grass and plastic - not in our expectations. Let's see what the next round brings . . .

[PaulNewman]

Miserable outing for Kenyon.  Yes, conditions were poor but zero excuse for not scoring.  Chance after chance after chance around the six or closer.  And another week will go by with some thinking Marietta is decent but they aren't.  They kicked the ball out at every chance, threw the ball as high in the air as they could, and kicked the ball away every time they gave away a re-start.  Kudos to the Marietta GK who made some miraculous saves in very poor conditions for a GK.  The even worse news from this vantage point is that Kenyon indeed is just a notch over mediocre right now.  The defense at full strength is still probably top-tier but the troubles scoring is going to force the defense out of shape with pressure on Myers and Wynn to keep pulling out wins for them.  The senior class needs to step up and the Lords need to get in a habit of scoring early instead of leaving games in the balance 0-0 or 1-1 late.

Not a great result for Oberlin either, but Grove City is pretty good and letdown after Calvin probably to be expected.

I think Ryan addressed the  potential that the variance between the NCAC and other GL  teams might be lessening. Capital beat Oberlin 4-0 in preseason - not making too much of a scrimmage but it was a dominate result. The OAC is fairing well against the mighty NCAC - a brand - that expects perennial exaltation in spite of reality. The games are played on grass and plastic - not in our expectations. Let's see what the next round brings . . .

Perennial exaltation?  Really?  In spite of reality?  What reality exactly?  First, hardly anyone outside of a few coaches and RH see the NCAC as a top 5 conference.  Most surveys don't even put NCAC in the top 8. What result are you referring to?  Kenyon completely dominated Marietta.  Look at the stats.  I could not care less if the OAC ends up being stronger.  But I doubt that will happen.  There's JCU and Capital, and then who?

[Domino1195]

Past results. Current SOS. Let's see how things play out. Stats are stats - another point Ryan made. Seeing the games - seeing how teams play - that's another story. Wooster vs Grove City - watched it. Grove City got a fortunate PK to win against a pesky Wooster team - who - looking at "stats" - outplayed GC. Stats be damned - it was a game mired in midfield play - scrappy - could have gone either way.

Reality? The NCAC is a two team race - OWU and Kenyon - and 3-4 also rans - most of whom are overrated. OAC is improving and it will be a more interesting conference to watch this year for the 6 teams that make the conference than in past years.

The bottom dwellers in the NCAC are deeper than I've seen in years - no clear-cut top 4 - no guaranteed 3 NCAA bids.

[Ryan Harmanis]

Not sure this is a debate worth too much time this early, but I'll bite. The NCAC has been better than the OAC for awhile. Period. Its best teams have been better than the OAC's best and its middle teams have been better than the OAC's middle teams. Bottom dwellers are bottom dwellers - irrelevant for this kind of discussion (excluding the NESCAC).

Nationally, the NCAC stacks up well because, especially since DePauw joined, it's often been a three-bid league with at least one team good enough to go to the Final Four/win it all (OWU mostly from '06 to '15, Kenyon from '14 to now). Outside of the NESCAC, few conferences can say that. The OAC has mostly been a one-bid league, with Ohio Northern making a few deep runs.

My only point was that it looks possible that the OAC is better this year. I'm not sure that it is, but it's up for debate. The OAC looks to have the best team in John Carroll, which has not been the case in awhile. Capital is improving. But Ohio Northern looks weaker. In the NCAC, Kenyon and DePauw look weaker than last year, although Kenyon still looks like a surefire NCAA team. OWU is hard to gauge, but OWU and Oberlin look head-and-shoulders better than any OAC team outside that top 3. OWU just beat ONU, and Oberlin plays them soon. I'm not sure the NCAC is a three-bid (or even two-bid) league at this point. But I'm not sure the OAC is either. So, like I said, it's up for discussion.

No other GL conference comes close to those two. Not sure why Wooster is relevant as, again, they've been bottom of the NCAC forever. Which conference race is more "interesting" is in the eye of the beholder, I'd imagine. (The NESCAC is probably always the most interesting, but I don't have near as much of an actual interest in it as I do the NCAC). But thus far it seems like the gap between John Carroll and the rest of the OAC might be greater than the gap between Kenyon and the rest of the NCAC. We'll see.

[bestfancle]

Not sure this is a debate worth too much time this early, but I'll bite. The NCAC has been better than the OAC for awhile. Period. Its best teams have been better than the OAC's best and its middle teams have been better than the OAC's middle teams. Bottom dwellers are bottom dwellers - irrelevant for this kind of discussion (excluding the NESCAC).

Nationally, the NCAC stacks up well because, especially since DePauw joined, it's often been a three-bid league with at least one team good enough to go to the Final Four/win it all (OWU mostly from '06 to '15, Kenyon from '14 to now). Outside of the NESCAC, few conferences can say that. The OAC has mostly been a one-bid league, with Ohio Northern making a few deep runs.

My only point was that it looks possible that the OAC is better this year. I'm not sure that it is, but it's up for debate. The OAC looks to have the best team in John Carroll, which has not been the case in awhile. Capital is improving. But Ohio Northern looks weaker. In the NCAC, Kenyon and DePauw look weaker than last year, although Kenyon still looks like a surefire NCAA team. OWU is hard to gauge, but OWU and Oberlin look head-and-shoulders better than any OAC team outside that top 3. OWU just beat ONU, and Oberlin plays them soon. I'm not sure the NCAC is a three-bid (or even two-bid) league at this point. But I'm not sure the OAC is either. So, like I said, it's up for discussion.

No other GL conference comes close to those two. Not sure why Wooster is relevant as, again, they've been bottom of the NCAC forever. Which conference race is more "interesting" is in the eye of the beholder, I'd imagine. (The NESCAC is probably always the most interesting, but I don't have near as much of an actual interest in it as I do the NCAC). But thus far it seems like the gap between John Carroll and the rest of the OAC might be greater than the gap between Kenyon and the rest of the NCAC. We'll see.

I agree with this, even as an "OAC guy". The NCAC has been much better than the OAC. Typically, the OAC has had ONU make it regardless of auto-bid or selection. Last year, we saw the OAC get two teams, basically due to ONU losing in the conference tournament.

Based on what we've seen so far this year, OAC is *probably* a two-bid league. JCU should make it regardless of conference tournament, and Capital/Marietta could get a bid by either beating JCU in conference or maintaining strong records and only losing to top teams like JCU.

OAC's bad teams are really bad, always have been. Even to the point that the first round of the OAC tournament are typically blow-outs. Not sure if that changes this year. What I can say, is OAC's best team (JCU) looks the best since ONU did in 2013, and might be the best team in the Great Lakes (which is rare for an OAC team). Also based on the looks of it, the OAC's middle tier (2-5) look marginally better than they have in the past.

I would not claim the OAC is stronger than the NCAC, and it will be tough to ever surpass the NCAC based on the "average team". Part of this is rooted in academics and history of success. That being said, if there ever was a year for the OAC to get the same number/more bids than the NCAC, this is that year.   

[PaulNewman]

Past results. Current SOS. Let's see how things play out. Stats are stats - another point Ryan made. Seeing the games - seeing how teams play - that's another story. Wooster vs Grove City - watched it. Grove City got a fortunate PK to win against a pesky Wooster team - who - looking at "stats" - outplayed GC. Stats be damned - it was a game mired in midfield play - scrappy - could have gone either way.

Reality? The NCAC is a two team race - OWU and Kenyon - and 3-4 also rans - most of whom are overrated. OAC is improving and it will be a more interesting conference to watch this year for the 6 teams that make the conference than in past years.

The bottom dwellers in the NCAC are deeper than I've seen in years - no clear-cut top 4 - no guaranteed 3 NCAA bids.

I'm not sure what this debate is about either. Why wouldn't we hope both conferences improve over time? The NCAC used to be a one or at most two bid league.  The years with three bids is all very, very recent, roughly paralleling DePauw joining and Kenyon's rise from '13 to now.  Kenyon was generally an after-thought until '13 except for '10.  It's an open question as to whether Kenyon has a nice run that is closing or whether they are in fact a perennial challenger to the historical dominance of OWU.  I like what Coach New has done with the Oberlin program but it's very much an open question as to whether Oberlin is going to be a true threat for more than an occasional year here and there.  No clue at all where you saw unwarranted or unfounded "exaltation."

Domino, I don't know why you keep appealing to RH, as though that is supposed to be determinative.  Very smart guy and I always consider what he says but I also can think for myself.  You also, if you are going to "appeal to authority" like that, should actually be accurate about what he said.  You omitted his comments about Marietta for example, and his suggestion that the NCAC is still stronger on balance because of Oberlin and Wabash..

As far as the OAC, is your theory that this is an unusual year, or are you suggesting that there is a new trend?  Based on what?  Influx of better coaches?  Improved recruiting?  What exactly?  Or do you think the gap has narrowed simply because the NCAC is not as strong at the top this year?  It's still VERY early.  JCU is in a good position at the moment but I'm not sold that they are the best team in the region, based on what we've seen so far.  They looked fit and athletic but not particularly skilled or competent in possession.  Didn't see much after Parente and the coach's son.  In a first round NCAA game, I'd still favor CMU, Kenyon and OWU over JCU.  Actually watching them I wasn't THAT impressed.  And who knows about a Geneva?  Your other comments are confusing.  You said the bottom of the NCAC is stronger than ever.  Why?  Because Hiram beat Otterbein?  Have you seen who Hiram has lost to?

[TableMax]

Had to be a happy Battling Bishop team going south on 23 after winning at ONU..Good win..  Even though prolly not same ONU team as last year.  Last year they CLOWNED Oberlin 4-0 (TableMax)..  Game on Saturday vs the YEOS should be interesting..Are they really ranked 7th in Great Lakes?  Hellava endowment...

Kenyon escaped Marietta with a tie LOL...  Just kidding..  They can maybe beat Heidelberg..

JCU is still the best side in the GL Region...

And I heard about that Oberlin Cap beatdown..  But it was just a scrimmage soooo...

Capital game at Nationally Ranked Washington and Lee will be the ANTIFA game of the weekend...........

[bestfancle]

Past results. Current SOS. Let's see how things play out. Stats are stats - another point Ryan made. Seeing the games - seeing how teams play - that's another story. Wooster vs Grove City - watched it. Grove City got a fortunate PK to win against a pesky Wooster team - who - looking at "stats" - outplayed GC. Stats be damned - it was a game mired in midfield play - scrappy - could have gone either way.

Reality? The NCAC is a two team race - OWU and Kenyon - and 3-4 also rans - most of whom are overrated. OAC is improving and it will be a more interesting conference to watch this year for the 6 teams that make the conference than in past years.

The bottom dwellers in the NCAC are deeper than I've seen in years - no clear-cut top 4 - no guaranteed 3 NCAA bids.

I'm not sure what this debate is about either. Why wouldn't we hope both conferences improve over time? The NCAC used to be a one or at most two bid league.  The years with three bids is all very, very recent, roughly paralleling DePauw joining and Kenyon's rise from '13 to now.  Kenyon was generally an after-thought until '13 except for '10.  It's an open question as to whether Kenyon has a nice run that is closing or whether they are in fact a perennial challenger to the historical dominance of OWU.  I like what Coach New has done with the Oberlin program but it's very much an open question as to whether Oberlin is going to be a true threat for more than an occasional year here and there.  No clue at all where you saw unwarranted or unfounded "exaltation."

Domino, I don't know why you keep appealing to RH, as though that is supposed to be determinative.  Very smart guy and I always consider what he says but I also can think for myself.  You also, if you are going to "appeal to authority" like that, should actually be accurate about what he said.  You omitted his comments about Marietta for example, and his suggestion that the NCAC is still stronger on balance because of Oberlin and Wabash..

As far as the OAC, is your theory that this is an unusual year, or are you suggesting that there is a new trend?  Based on what?  Influx of better coaches?  Improved recruiting?  What exactly?  Or do you think the gap has narrowed simply because the NCAC is not as strong at the top this year?  It's still VERY early.  JCU is in a good position at the moment but I'm not sold that they are the best team in the region, based on what we've seen so far.  They looked fit and athletic but not particularly skilled or competent in possession.  Didn't see much after Parente and the coach's son.  In a first round NCAA game, I'd still favor CMU, Kenyon and OWU over JCU.  Actually watching them I wasn't THAT impressed.  And who knows about a Geneva?  Your other comments are confusing.  You said the bottom of the NCAC is stronger than ever.  Why?  Because Hiram beat Otterbein?  Have you seen who Hiram has lost to?

I can't speak to everything you addressed Paul (even though your comment wasn't to me), but there's a couple opinions that I have.

1. Blake New at Oberlin is an incredible technical coach, I actually had the opportunity to play for him during two seasons of club soccer, and the emphasis he puts on technical play is outstanding (first touch and weighted passes, specifically). I thought they would drop off this year due to their graduating class, but that doesn't seem to be happening at the moment.

2. I think JCU is more impressive than people think. Based on last nights game (1-0 win vs. Case) they did NOT perform to the level they have set during their previous games. JCU graduated three players that saw the field last year. Two of those players would struggle to see the field this year.

3. The recruiting effort in the OAC has really turned up a notch. I think of Otterbein's new coach, he has been seen recruiting throughout the region. Also, arguably JCU's strongest freshman, Turintin*, was committed to D-1 Cleveland State. This is a new trend when JCU, and other schools, are competing with D-1 schools for top talent. Many high school kids coming from the area are set on Akron, and when they can't make it there, they typically end up at Cleveland State. Now JCU has become a viable alternative to CSU and they are competing for the same players.

I am very excited to go to the JCU vs. OWU game this weekend, and I think JCU will surprise a lot of people by putting multiple goals away. If anyone remembers, JCU vs. OWU last played in 2011, and the game ended 2-1 to OWU with a bench clearing brawl. If there is one non-conference game that JCU will step up for, it will be this game.

[PaulNewman]

I will be surprised and ready to adjust my impressions if JCU handles OWU.  I'm guessing OWU will be the team to score multiple goals, although JCU does have the advantage of being at home.  Is Kenyon better than CMU because they got an OT winner?  Is JCU better than Kenyon because, on home field, they snagged one AFTER Jeon missed a couple of wide open nets and a couple of others had close-range misses? 

IT'S EARLY!

[Domino1195]

On Sept 7th I wrote this:

Haven't seen many teams play so far - Scrimmages: Denison & Baldwin Wallace, Capital & Oberlin; Games: the two Capital played in Maryland, Kenyon & Otterbein. Based on games seen, scores and preseason expectations:

Teams bringing back their core group of starters are doing what you'd expect (Geneva, JCU), teams replacing a lot struggling (ONU). Kenyon is a "not sure" yet - first half disjointed - second half came out strong and controlled the game. I think Jeon might be the key for them - when they played through him they gained control. Lots of overlapping runs down the wings and "old English" style crosses into the box in the first half.

Once again Capital fields a team of underclassmen - 26 fresh/sophomores, 4 seniors. MD trip was a travel nightmare - arrived 1.5 hours before the game after a 4 hour trip. Got an early goal and literally parked the bus. St. Mary's was a physical game - they scored on a DFK from a tight angle - perfectly placed - got a second late as Cap was exposed trying to get the equalizer.  If they two MD teams I thought Salisbury was slightly better. Gettysburg was fun to watch - lots of talent.

Not sure what to make of Thomas More's home loss to Hanover. I thought Hanover would struggle to start the year as they replace many players - we'll find out "more" this weekend

Your response from Sept 7:

Which conferences are the strongest in the Great Lakes??

Is the NCAC as good as the OAC this year??

Does Capital even have a chance against the #3-4 Ranked returning Semi Finalist "TOMMIES"

OK, TableMax, you are clearly a Russian bot trying to lure me back into the fray, and of course almost any lure would do.

Why the need to know which conference is stronger?

I'm not an OAC expert, but my guess is that the NCAC is stronger than ever.  It's possible there are no top 5 teams or maybe not even a top 10 team, but I doubt the overall strength has ever been stronger.  Kenyon IMHO is not just a "we'll see" team.  They will be very good again.  Maybe not as good as the three prior editions, but that doesn't necessarily mean this year's edition won't be the squad that gets further.  I don't think Tufts' squad last year was their best out of the last 3-4 years and yet we know what happened.  They lost a bunch of talent but they still have quite a bit.  They should get stronger as the year goes on.  They snatched a good win against CMU (who should be another top Great Lakes team with most of the Tartan squad returning), and as another poster noted they probably deserved at least an away draw with JCU (who also will be a top Great Lakes team).  That game reminded me of the CWRU affair last year where Kenyon let CWRU hang around and hang around until CWRU scored in OT.  No real conclusions to reach based on the JCU match.  OWU should be back to being OWU, although perhaps they are a year away from being a national title contender.  Oberlin is going to be very good and with high levels of confidence and determination.  Wabash should be good again and DePauw always contends.  Will the OAC have that many strong teams?  I don't know.  JCU is good, I suspect Capital will challenge again, and you can never count out ONU.

On Sept 12 Ryan wrote this:

"(5) NCAC still looks a little stronger, but it's an open question, more than at any point in the last decade. OAC might have the best team in JCU. Capital continues to get better. Should balance a dropoff from ONU. Kenyon and DePauw look weaker than last year, and OWU isn't there yet. Wabash and Oberlin probably make the NCAC deeper. Denison has been disappointing. We'll see what happens in the next two weeks."

Not looking to Ryan as an expert - doubt he or any one of us want that crown.  But based on what's happening - YTD - what I've seen - I don't think the NCAC is as strong as you do.  I think the OAC has some improved teams, like Marietta. And when I used the term "deeper" for NCAC bottom dwellers - I meant that there are more teams that are going to struggle in the NCAC than there were in the past.  Wabash is playing an incredible soft non conference schedule and I'm not convinced they will land in the top 5 of the NCAC. God bless Wittenberg - but I watched that Thomas More game and they are hapless. Saw Denison in the pouring down rain last night - they did not use a couple players - especially their best (IMO) Khaira - he was on the sideline but didn't start - can't remember the last time that happened (Rudolph also didn't play). Started 4? freshmen - going to be a very long year for them. Saw the Baldwin Wallace-Allegheny game - Allegheny has upside - a good midfield - but they can't leak goals like they did this night; haven't seen Hiram but based on early results it is douubtful they will contend for a playoff spot. Saw Wooster - a maybe - they are scrappy, high work rate - may win a few more physical games than in the past. Haven't seen DePauw.

OWU has to tighten things up in the back, until they do Kenyon's defense makes them #1, OWU 2, Oberlin 3 - and after that? 

[Domino1195]

I will be surprised and ready to adjust my impressions if JCU handles OWU.  I'm guessing OWU will be the team to score multiple goals, although JCU does have the advantage of being at home.  Is Kenyon better than CMU because they got an OT winner?  Is JCU better than Kenyon because, on home field, they snagged one AFTER Jeon missed a couple of wide open nets and a couple of others had close-range misses? 

IT'S EARLY!

JCU is a solid team - all the players know their roles, they don't make dumb mistakes on the ball (3 touch) and their chemistry is very tight for this early in the season. They were up 3-0 on Medaille before Medaille knew they were in a game. They are playing very similarly to W&L - not a lot of fancy players but a well connected side where all the players are on the same page.

I told my son OWU would win last night - ONU is going to need more time to develop chemistry with all those new starters, and not having McNeil in goal is showing. But OWU let a 2-0 slip away before getting a late game winner.  Naive Assumption - what has been happening will continue to happen: JCU doesn't concede goals - they won't on Sat.  OWU gives up late goals - they will on Sat.

JCU weakness - not keeping the foot on the pedal for 90 minutes.  They gave Medaille a couple of real good scoring chances in the last 10 - total domination in the first half followed by weaker effort in the second.

[PaulNewman]

We'll see.  I was one of the loudest on here when that 17-4 JCU team was snubbed.  I genuinely have no reason to root against the OAC.  From the beginning, the question of which conference is better is one I did not understand.  You'll notice that in the quote of mine you quoted I said the NCAC might not have a single top 10 or even top 15 team this year.  Down at the top and possibly stronger than usual 3 thru 5. 

Not sure how OWU plays on turf.  However, even in the last 2-3 years when I would argue Kenyon had the better team, OWU still has tended to show a more dynamic and connected offense.  I wish Kenyon played offense more like OWU.  I've been very vocal about the scoring woes of the Lords.  Based on the Kenyon and Case games I'd be very surprised if JCU beats OWU 2-0 or 3-1.  A one goal JCU win wouldn't surprise me, but a signature 2-0 or 3-1 win for OWU wouldn't surprise either.  Looks like we'll have a good online crowd for that one Saturday night!

FYI:  This is a huge game for OWU and they usually play well in big games.  You can look at their schedule and see that the OWU SoS is going to be very high, but they can't necessarily count on ONU being ranked when it matters, and they have the losses already to Calvin and STU.  Martin knows they could really used a ranked win. 

[Domino1195]

We'll see.  I was one of the loudest on here when that 17-4 JCU team was snubbed.  I genuinely have no reason to root against the OAC.  From the beginning, the question of which conference is better is one I did not understand.  You'll notice that in the quote of mine you quoted I said the NCAC might not have a single top 10 or even top 15 team this year.  Down at the top and possibly stronger than usual 3 thru 5. 

Not sure how OWU plays on turf.  However, even in the last 2-3 years when I would argue Kenyon had the better team, OWU still has tended to show a more dynamic and connected offense.  I wish Kenyon played offense more like OWU.  I've been very vocal about the scoring woes of the Lords.  Based on the Kenyon and Case games I'd be very surprised if JCU beats OWU 2-0 or 3-1.  A one goal JCU win wouldn't surprise me, but a signature 2-0 or 3-1 win for OWU wouldn't surprise either.  Looks like we'll have a good online crowd for that one Saturday night!

FYI:  This is a huge game for OWU and they usually play well in big games.  You can look at their schedule and see that the OWU SoS is going to be very high, but they can't necessarily count on ONU being ranked when it matters, and they have the losses already to Calvin and STU.  Martin knows they could really used a ranked win. 

This game is huge for the Battle of Ohio.  Of all the Ohio-based schools NCAC and OAC schools - only Kenyon, Oberlin and Denison build their teams with non Ohioans.  OWU would have been predominantly east coast years ago - now features 17 Ohioans.   Otterbein's new coach - former DI and MLS player, DOC of a very strong central Ohio club - will gain recruits in the coming years. Capital, OWU, Muskingum coaches are part of a very strong central Ohio club (sent two teams to nationals - all but 2 or 3 playing college ball in Ohio: http://tournaments.usyouthsoccer.org/events/2017-National-Championships/Team/44810/OP9798GreenOH-SRII-R/   http://tournaments.usyouthsoccer.org/events/2017-National-Championships/Team/44809/OPGreenOH-SNLBK/)

When Archie Miller left my beloved UD Flyers for Indiana, the Dayton papers ran a story about conversations he had with his dad - about losing recruits.  He told of losing kids to Michigan State, where the recruits were leaning towards UD but would tell Archie, "But it's Tom IZZO!"  Archie put UD basketball back on the map - he was a helluva recruiter and will be so at Indiana - but he got tired of putting all that effort into a recruit, to be told no because the school lacked the appeal of the BIG programs.

The top central Ohio players look at the same list of in-state schools; OWU was automatic for central Ohio kids not wanting to play DI OSU or DII Ohio Dominican - still is to a degree.  Non conference, in-state games are incredibly important to the image of a program.  I wished the NCAC and OAC would hold a pre-season tournament/challenge - as the Big10 and ACC do in college basketball.