Double numbers

[paparcc]

Sure wish teams would discontinue the practice of duplicating numbers.  I realize both can't be on the field at the same time, but still its annoying.  So often announcers call the wrong name, especially at away games.  1-99 numbers are available so if a guy isn't good enough to have a unique number, he shouldn't be dressing for the game.

[jknezek]

Sure wish teams would discontinue the practice of duplicating numbers.  I realize both can't be on the field at the same time, but still its annoying.  So often announcers call the wrong name, especially at away games.  1-99 numbers are available so if a guy isn't good enough to have a unique number, he shouldn't be dressing for the game.

These guys are playing for the love of the game. If they want to put in the time and effort to go to practice and voluntary sessions and everything else that needs to be done to be part of the team, I don't have a problem with them being dressed in duplicate numbers. There is nothing easy about the time commitment these young men, and all DIII student athletes, make. If the reward for their effort is to dress and be part of the team on the sideline, and that's enough for them, it should be enough for us...

[Bombers798891]

I mean, I agree with the second point, though the announcer point is somewhat valid. Hopefully, the players either play different positions, or are physically different enough to make it obvious. Last year, Alfred had two DL wearing 77. One weighed 220 and one 300, for example.

But yeah, if you have two backup OL wearing the same number and one is 6-1, 295 and the other is 6-0, 305, I could see a road broadcaster (especially if it's a student) not knowing which one you're subbing in late in the game. (Hopefully, a home broadcaster has picked up on the subtle differences)

[paparcc]

@jknezek
That's kind of the point.  Regardless of level it's college football, not Pop Warner.  It's too expensive for schools to provide equipment, uniforms etc. for 100+ players, the majority of whom will never get on the field.   Why waste the kid's and the coach's time?  Keep the best 70, make the 4th string the Scout squad, and let the rest go play intramural. 

Many kids at DIII are very good players but for whatever reason (usually size) didn't get a chance at the D1 or DII levels.  It's competitive college athletics.  On the team I follow the duplicate numbers are always offense/defense.  But regardless it's confusing for spectators, announcers and officials.  What happens when #60 is ejected and another #60 comes in the game later? 

Baseball don't allow it, basketball don't allow it, soccer don't allow it....why football?

[Bombers798891]

@jknezek
That's kind of the point.  Regardless of level it's college football, not Pop Warner.  It's too expensive for schools to provide equipment, uniforms etc. for 100+ players, the majority of whom will never get on the field.   Why waste the kid's and the coach's time? Keep the best 70, make the 4th string the Scout squad, and let the rest go play intramural. 

But regardless it's confusing for spectators, announcers and officials.  What happens when #60 is ejected and another #60 comes in the game later? 

The problem is, the fact that it still occurs undermines nearly every one of your points. To wit:

1. Athletic departments have budgets. If a football team roster is 140 players deep, the athletic department (and whoever they answer to) has decided it's an acceptable use of their budget to provide equipment for that many players.
2. Coaches decide who makes their team. If a team's roster is 140 players deep, the coaching staff has decided that it's not a waste of their time to have 140 players
3. Participation in college athletics is voluntary. If the player is on the sideline, they have decided that being on the sideline is not a waste of their time.
4. Officials could certainly raise the issue with various rules committees within the NCAA if it was a consistent source of problems, rather than a rare occurrence.

As far as spectators go, if your enjoyment of the game is seriously hindered by the fact that two players are wearing the same number and you get confused...well, that seems like a small thing to be bothered by.

[jknezek]

@jknezek
That's kind of the point.  Regardless of level it's college football, not Pop Warner. It's too expensive for schools to provide equipment, uniforms etc. for 100+ players, the majority of whom will never get on the field.   Why waste the kid's and the coach's time?  Keep the best 70, make the 4th string the Scout squad, and let the rest go play intramural. 

Many kids at DIII are very good players but for whatever reason (usually size) didn't get a chance at the D1 or DII levels.  It's competitive college athletics.  On the team I follow the duplicate numbers are always offense/defense. But regardless it's confusing for spectators, announcers and officials. What happens when #60 is ejected and another #60 comes in the game later? 

Baseball don't allow it, basketball don't allow it, soccer don't allow it....why football?

I don't think you understand the economics of DIII athletics. Many schools, especially those that rely on tuition more than endowment, would RATHER have 140 football players than 90. The true cost of many of these schools is about $15K-$25K per year after aid. Shelling out a few hundred dollars in equipment, and maybe an extra grand or two per kid on medical care, travel costs, and academic aids, is nothing compared to the extra revenue from having another student on campus.

Many of these schools expect the coaches to bring in 50+ first years every year. It's part of his job, whether he thinks they are going to play or not because it helps the school make budget. Having all those first years be required to stay on campus, be required to have meal plans, sit in the largest classes with the least expensive professors and assistants, first years are where colleges make their money. Many schools NEED those first year athletes. Now if they drop to 10-20 seniors who legitimately play football, that's ok too. Seniors don't have to live on campus, don't have to have the full meal plan, have small classes taught by senior professors. You get the point? Your point about money is simply looking at things backward.

As for confusing for spectators, I don't think that is really a big consideration. Most DIII schools don't make enough from ticket revenue or streaming charges to really care. Again, a couple extra kids paying tuition will bring in more revenue. So some small confusion is not going to be high on their list of concerns. Average DIII attendance is 2000 per game. At $10 per ticket, 10 games per year, (playoff revenue goes to the NCAA I believe), and I know many schools that charge nothing, but that's $200K per year. 10 kids paying 20K? Same revenue.

Colleges have generally fixed costs. They can have variable revenue based on the number of enrollments. So athletics offers students an important outlet, teamwork, character, time management, and many other life skills are learned by the student athletes. But the primary driver of a DIII athletic department is to attract students. The more the better within reason. I have problems with schools that are bringing in 100 first years, and there are a few that do in DIII. I think it's a joke and dishonest for the school and the coach when they pitch many of these kids. But from a financial standpoint? It's just a good business decision. If giving those kids duplicate numbers and letting them be part of the dressed team on game day keeps them coming back for another year, you can bet the colleges are going to be in favor of it.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

FYI - It is actually illegal for a team to have two players with the same number on the field at the same time.

And as an announcer and as a broadcaster... double-number are a pain in the ass and there are honest ways to work around it that aren't taken seriously.

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

I think back in 2013 when Franklin came back and almost knocked off Mount Union in the debut of coach Vince Kehres there was a penalty where Mount was called for having two identical numbers on the field. If it can happen to them it could happen to anyone.

[HScoach]

FYI - It is actually illegal for a team to have two players with the same number on the field at the same time.

And as an announcer and as a broadcaster... double-number are a pain in the ass and there are honest ways to work around it that aren't taken seriously.

As a radio broadcaster of Mount for roughly a decade, I covered a LOT of games that got way out of hand on the score board and the bench was emptied.  It was rare that we named the wrong guy in a broadcast because the SID kept everyone in the pressbox informed of who was who.   The more common error was the young guys wearing a different number than the official roster, but even those were clarified in the pregame which made the whole inconvenience simply having to write the new # on the reference material I already had prepared.

I can't speak of every school across the county, but double numbers have rarely been an issue at Mount and I imagine they have as big a roster as anyone in D3.

[HScoach]

I think back in 2013 when Franklin came back and almost knocked off Mount Union in the debut of coach Vince Kehres there was a penalty where Mount was called for having two identical numbers on the field. If it can happen to them it could happen to anyone.

Correct.   If my memory is working it wiped out an interception.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

FYI - It is actually illegal for a team to have two players with the same number on the field at the same time.

And as an announcer and as a broadcaster... double-number are a pain in the ass and there are honest ways to work around it that aren't taken seriously.

As a radio broadcaster of Mount for roughly a decade, I covered a LOT of games that got way out of hand on the score board and the bench was emptied.  It was rare that we named the wrong guy in a broadcast because the SID kept everyone in the pressbox informed of who was who.   The more common error was the young guys wearing a different number than the official roster, but even those were clarified in the pregame which made the whole inconvenience simply having to write the new # on the reference material I already had prepared.

I can't speak of every school across the county, but double numbers have rarely been an issue at Mount and I imagine they have as big a roster as anyone in D3.

You happen to name one of the best SIDs and offices in the country, especially at the DIII ranks. Lenny has a lot of control and I know he makes sure football doesn't screw things up. He has the ability to make sure coaches understand what is going on and how things need to work especially for a program that gets a ton of national attention. That coaching staff realizes that for a lot of reasons, what Lenny says is legit and needs to happen - like clarifying number changes and double-numbers.

But that is only about 10% of the country. There are a lot of programs out there where the coaching staff doesn't care what the SID says or does. There are lot of programs out there where the coaches make last minute decisions (or aren't even aware of number changes) and then don't care to or fail to communicate that with the SID. That's because they either don't respect that office or just don't think it is that big a deal. Heck, they aren't in the national spotlight that much, so they don't realize the importance of all of this. Heck, even FSU in DI was forced to change their uniforms once it was revealed how difficult it was to see numbers and such (that was for varying reasons why they were changed and what it affected).

So, yes... you haven't had problems and I am not surprised you didn't have problems. Lenny runs a terrific ship there and coaches in that entire department understand what Lenny says should be followed. He isn't the president of D3SIDA (Division III Sports Information Directors of America a subset of CoSIDA) for the heck of it. And as such, sadly your situation at Mount Union is not the norm... its usually the exception.

[ADL70]

I think back in 2013 when Franklin came back and almost knocked off Mount Union in the debut of coach Vince Kehres there was a penalty where Mount was called for having two identical numbers on the field. If it can happen to them it could happen to anyone.

Correct.   If my memory is working it wiped out an interception.

It was my first and only game at Mt Union. I recall that it was a blocked punt recovered for a td. Play-by-play shows the penalty only during FC's final possession of first quarter on a fourth down play deep in MU territory.

[Bombers798891]

And as an announcer and as a broadcaster... double-number are a pain in the ass and there are honest ways to work around it that aren't taken seriously.

What are the work-arounds?

[Just Bill]

Allow three-digit numbers and update the stat software to accommodate it and all is good.

[Bombers798891]

Allow three-digit numbers and update the stat software to accommodate it and all is good.

I mean, sure.

Look, I used to call games, so I'm not unsympathetic. I just don't think it's that big a deal. On the rare times you had a player at the same position who wasn't obviously physically different—be it skin color or say, Alfred having two defensive linemen wearing 77, one of whom was 220 pounds and one of whom was 300—I'd look for something else (Hey, the starting corner wears a black sleeve on his right arm).