Conference Playing Styles?

[Clotpoll]

Read closer. My issue is with US soccer in general, from kiddies to MLS. It's all garbage.

I'm not alone on this, nor are many of my takes original. Read what people like Eric Wynalda, Gary Kleiban, Ted Westervelt or Jon Townsend (a former NCAA player) have written. These Football Times, a publication aligned with The Guardian, also offers good and fair criticism of the US game.

I only offer some of my son's experiences here as an example of thoughts on playing in D3 that are shared by many who play with him and former club teammates of his who now play at other schools. I'm amused, but not at all surprised, that a couple of people here would rather attack the messenger than acknowledge the observations and concerns of players.

The US game, as opposed to the bromides constantly issued by US Soccer, is rapidly deteriorating. And, it's deteriorating all the way from the increasingly exclusive, pay2play enclaves of youth soccer all the way to MLS, which now resorts to falsifying attendance figures and using all sorts of PR tactics to divert attention away from TV ratings that are below dog shows.

If you don't think the US game is deteriorating, please explain the following:

1. Bob Bradley
2. USMNT results- all ages- when we play top competition (six World Cup wins since 1930)
3. A USSDA that sends 99.9% of its players into scholastic soccer (NCAA).
4. A pro first division that relies on a NFL-style 'draft' of scholastic players. Nowhere else on the planet is scholastic soccer considered adequate preparation for the pro game.

Now, think about the fact that all the issues we have as a soccer nation filter into all levels of the game...even NCAA D3. It's just not a pretty picture. What's even sadder is...it can be made better and made better fast.

[jknezek]

Read closer. My issue is with US soccer in general, from kiddies to MLS. It's all garbage.

I'm not alone on this, nor are many of my takes original. Read what people like Eric Wynalda, Gary Kleiban, Ted Westervelt or Jon Townsend (a former NCAA player) have written. These Football Times, a publication aligned with The Guardian, also offers good and fair criticism of the US game.

I only offer some of my son's experiences here as an example of thoughts on playing in D3 that are shared by many who play with him and former club teammates of his who now play at other schools. I'm amused, but not at all surprised, that a couple of people here would rather attack the messenger than acknowledge the observations and concerns of players.

The US game, as opposed to the bromides constantly issued by US Soccer, is rapidly deteriorating. And, it's deteriorating all the way from the increasingly exclusive, pay2play enclaves of youth soccer all the way to MLS, which now resorts to falsifying attendance figures and using all sorts of PR tactics to divert attention away from TV ratings that are below dog shows.

If you don't think the US game is deteriorating, please explain the following:

1. Bob Bradley
2. USMNT results- all ages- when we play top competition (six World Cup wins since 1930)
3. A USSDA that sends 99.9% of its players into scholastic soccer (NCAA).
4. A pro first division that relies on a NFL-style 'draft' of scholastic players. Nowhere else on the planet is scholastic soccer considered adequate preparation for the pro game.

Now, think about the fact that all the issues we have as a soccer nation filter into all levels of the game...even NCAA D3. It's just not a pretty picture. What's even sadder is...it can be made better and made better fast.

Some of this seems seriously misinformed, though I do agree our youth system isn't doing as well as it should.

1) Speaking of Bob Bradley. He did fine as an MLS coach, national team coach in 2 countries, first division coach in Scandanavia and second division/first division coach in France. Did he fail with a Premiere League team? Yes he did. He's not the first and not the last to have that happen and Swansea stayed up by finding a manager that was better suited to them.

2) USMNT -- I think they've plateaued a bit since 2010, but you say 6 wins in history? Fine. I say qualified for the last 7 World Cups after missing for 40 years. We got blown out in 90, advanced at home luckily in 94, blown out in 98, advanced with a good draw in 2002, beaten in 06 in a group with the eventual champions, who only we took to overtime, won an easy group in 10, advanced out of a tough group in 14. We are on track to qualify again. There is steady progress here. It's just not fast and it's not going to be fast. But there is progress from the 70s/80s to today. None of this accounts for the winning of WC qualifying, our last appearance in the Confederations Cup, consistent competing and winning Gold Cups, and our last appearance in CONMEBOL's championship.

3) Where else is USSDA going to send them? In a country our size, we don't even have 30 full-time professional soccer teams. USL and NASL players usually need second jobs, let alone down the pyramid. All the other Western soccer playing nations have more full-time professional set ups than we do, as at least the first and second divisions are full-time let alone in England when it's full-time professional through the 4th or 5th tier. To keep these kids playing, the NCAA is the only choice. There aren't enough developmental academies, though at least MLS is on board and starting to do the right thing with the USL partnership. NASL is pretty much a dead league walking.

4) It's for an increasingly small minority of players. The best American players are increasingly coming from academies, though of course Jordan Morris and others still come through the NCAA. But how else to apportion them? A draft is something American's are familiar with and it works best with our non-relegation system so you don't end up with a handful of always dominant teams. I expect the Superdraft will keep dropping in importance, or at least the players coming through will be more USL development picks as the academies keep growing and improving.

US Soccer has come a long way. It has a long way still to go with a country this size. I don't like the NCAA rules and I've stated before they hinder development massively, but until MLS can make serious money, and even the minor leagues, it's the best hope we have for keeping the numbers playing until maturity.

[Clotpoll]

Promotion & relegation addresses every issue we've touched on and puts every level of our game onto a better track the minute it's instituted. It also has to be mentioned that we've pursued a closed-league/franchise system in direct violation of FIFA statute for over 20 years, and it's more likely than not that the end is in sight. Australia was recently hit with an edict to conform to FIFA standard, and we're likely next (although US Soccer's corrupt influence on FIFA keeps our peculiar exception to statute alive).

It'll be good to have our game structured the same way it is in the rest of the world, if for no other reason than our qualities can be judged on an absolute, no excuses basis. We will either be 'good enough' or 'not good enough', and the qualifications, excuses, 'if onlys', 'need more time, money, patience, etc' constantly put out there by defenders of the status quo will be gone.

[Clotpoll]

BTW, MLS isn't designed to 'make serious money'. It's designed to be a tax-loss carry forward to offset the profits generated by Soccer United Marketing, the entity into which each MLS franchisee buys with his entry fee (which is now $150mm). The actual teams are little more than hedges against owners' primary sporting interests. MLS openly declares- and has declared twice, in labor negotiations- that it has lost money every year since it began. TV ratings and live attendances have been in perpetual year-over-year decline, so it's not presumptuous to say that on its current trajectory, MLS will NEVER make money. It's also an acknowledged fact that the league's only revenue growth comes from the sale of new franchises. This is a common characteristic of Ponzi schemes, btw.

Yet...the current 'buy-in' sits at $150mm. Either the billionaires pursuing the (allegedly) last four franchises have taken leave of their senses...or they're fully aware that what they're REALLY buying into is the super-profitable Soccer United Marketing, an organization of dubious ethical & legal standing (a discussion of which I'll leave for another day).

[Flying Weasel]

Clotpoll, you keep getting further off-topic for this particular thread and for this board as a whole.  I don't think there's any problem with soccer-related off-topics in clearly defined threads, but this topic of "Conference Playing Styles?" has clearly been hi-jacked.

By the way, nobody attacked the messenger (you) and in the give-and-take that's occurred, you've given more than you've taken, not to mention it's only you that resorted to name-calling. I have read your posts and I am aware that your criticisms and complaints extend beyond NCAA Division III soccer to soccer in the U.S. as a whole.  What is not clear is why you chose to use this forum to assert that soccer in the U.S. is garbage, nor is it clear what your objective is in making such an assertion. I believe most, if not all, active participants on this board actually enjoy Division III soccer. We enjoy watching it, following it, discussing it--that's kind of why we come hang out here on this board. And we don't enjoy it because we are too naive, stupid, uneducated, or incompetent to realize and comprehend that it's not as good as the Champions League, La Liga, etc. That we are able to take it for what it is and enjoy it (often born initially from some personal connection to a D-III player and/or team) does not mean we don't have our own criticisms, complaints, and concerns about soccer in the U.S. as a whole and of Division III soccer specifically.

It's OK if you can't appreciate it for what it is and get enjoyment from it, but what are you trying to accomplish by coming here and calling it and all soccer in the U.S. garbage (and, in essence, saying that the thing that the rest of us are fans of and the thing around which this little "community" of ours here is based upon is garbage)?  You say it can be made better and fast; is there some way in which you think we can help bring about that improvement?  If there's something more you want than us to simply agree with you and commiserate with you and the plight of all the other disenfranchised players like your son, than please be more clear.  If you want to discuss how the different NCAA-specific soccer rules are detrimental to the development of soccer in the U.S. and are open to a variety of perspectives and opinions, start a new semi off-topic discussion for this.  If you want to discuss how soccer in the U.S. is different from that in most other parts of the world and how those differences hold us back, start a new off-topic discussion for this.  Those are worthwhile discussions if we can all engage differing viewpoints with respect.

[Admittedly this perpetuates the hi-jacking of the thread; my apologies . . .]
I don't believe anyone thinks playing Division III soccer is all about having "fun" which in hindsight was the wrong word choice by Paul Newman.  Enjoyment and fulfillment and satisfaction are probably more appropriate word choices and what Newman likely had in mind.  The hard work, dedication, discipline and sacrifice that is required to maximize one's potential and what one brings to the table for the good of the team as a whole is certainly not always fun, but if there's no joy in it (regardless and independent of win & losses and team successes and individual honors), than it's time to look first inward and then outward to figure out what changes are needed to rectify that and just maybe it's time to move on to something else.  If a student-athlete's voluntarily chosen set of priorities and pursuits are too overwhelming to be able to enjoy them, that's not healthy and pulling back in some area would be wise.

Sure, some teams, maybe many teams, have some players who would fit the category that you have labelled "dead weight".  The stronger programs shouldn't and I doubt do have this problem, but coaches of weaker programs probably have no choice but to accept that their rosters will contain a certain percentage of players not fully invested.  And that's got to be a tough spot for players to see teammates not fully invested.  Obviously as a player who is all-in, you want to get to play on a team full of like-minded, like-dedicated players and if that's not the case for your son, that's unfortunate.  I guess that he (and you) either didn't expect that of the program/school he chose or academics or some other consideration trumped the school selection.  Any chance of transferring to a school and program that is a better fit for his/your expectations of the soccer experience?

[Clotpoll]

The way a country coaches, selects players and organizes its game at the top has a direct effect upon lower levels of the game. Those at the top are the ones licensing coaches and determining best practices, rule changes, etc. The effect of US Soccer on the NCAA game is of heightened importance, since the NCAA itself absolutely loathes men's soccer. It's not 'revenue-producing', and the peculiarities unique to the sport make it hard to shoehorn into the traditional American format...especially when it comes to scheduling, as we are seeing with their resistance to the proposed full academic year schedule. And anyone who doesn't think the NCAA loathes men's soccer? Please explain the 9.9 Rule.

If I've hijacked this thread, I trust the moderator will block me and put me on notice. However, the topics I'm discussing are relevant to both D3 and the general playing style at this level.

If anything, it's amusing to see responses here that both mischaracterize my son, his motivation for playing and the insinuations, pulled from thin air, that he's somehow an aggrieved party claiming victimhood at the hands of his coach and the NCAA. Nothing could be further from the truth. A casual glancing of my posts will reveal he:

1. Never aspired to attend a D1 school.
2. Chose his school based 100% on academics and accepted its soccer situation warts and all, eyes wide open.
3. Is thrilled with his choice of school & is getting a great education.
4. Has no issues with any of his teammates and is close with them.
5. Has frustrations with the general style of NCAA play and the varying levels of commitment of some of his teammates.
6. Does not believe that the style of play associated with 'winning' soccer at this level is a representation of what the game should be.

It's also revealing that other than Saint of Old, no one has responded to any points I've brought up in this thread without answers wrapped in excuses, qualifiers, 'if onlys' and other cop-outs and modifiers. Some responses misquote me or ascribe attitudes to me and my son which we simply don't hold. Some responses are just indulgence in strawman argument.

And, from a coaching standpoint, I'll follow this up with a few simple ideas that can raise the quality of the D3 game. Again, if I've stumbled into a club of dads and/or former D3 players who just want to watch junior's team or alma mater rack up wins, I trust the moderator will inform me to move on. And my apologies if my lack of desire to watch D3- or NCAA soccer in general- has offended. But I'd also say that your harshest critics are the ones who don't even bother to engage on a forum like this...and they are both numerous and could be of great help in raising the quality across the entire NCAA.

[luckylefty]

We get it. We all know people like you. You despise US soccer at all levels, and you make arrogant comments about how easily you could fix it.

I don't think you are that caught off guard about how hostile everyone has been to you, I have a feeling this is the not the first time this has ever happened.

[jknezek]

It's also revealing that other than Saint of Old, no one has responded to any points I've brought up in this thread without answers wrapped in excuses, qualifiers, 'if onlys' and other cop-outs and modifiers. Some responses misquote me or ascribe attitudes to me and my son which we simply don't hold. Some responses are just indulgence in strawman argument.

Yeah. That's the problem. It has nothing to do with an axe to grind and a desire to talk and not listen...

[Clotpoll]

You get about 1/4 of it. What you don't mention is that among soccer-first fans in the US, folks on my side of the fence (plus the vast numbers that simply don't care) have you hugely outnumbered.

There are some of us who would like to contribute to the development of the game at this level. Would you prefer we just nod our heads and ingratiate ourselves to you? Informed critics should be the ones any business, academic or sports organizations should want to hear from if they're truly concerned with advancement. The NCAA's raving fans are raving fans...and that's ok. Just not a lot to be learned from that segment.

The 'fix', as you say, will not be easy. Then again, simple things always turn out to not be so easy. Here are a couple of ideas from the coaching end that could free up more time to work squads into a pass/possess mindset:

1. All conditioning is up to the player. No part of any practice will be devoted to any aspect of conditioning, other than measuring each player's baseline fitness the first session of preseason.

2. All ball control work is up to the player. No practice time will be devoted to touch, receiving on the proper foot, etc. No passing or control 'drills' whatsoever...your touch is grooved by day one, or it's not.

3. Two-a-day and three-a-day preseason sessions should be broken into defenders/6s only, attack/attacking mids only and gk sessions that stress footwork and distribution over saves. The first string GK works with defenders on playing out of the back. Any full team practices or infra team scrimmages should emphasize only building out of the back and creating/rehearsing patterns of attack. The ball does not leave the ground, under any circumstance.

4. Close to the season and into the season, all training moves to rondo-based work and directional rondos.

[luckylefty]

I'm not some NCAA fanatic. I absolutely recognize the flaws of the system.

Division 3 soccer is not about developing soccer players to play the beautiful game. For right or wrong it's about results. You can argue that's unfair but AD's aren't firing guys and taking away their livelihood cause coaches are playing too direct. They do it when you don't win. You can say that's wrong, but that is our current system so of course coaches operate within that.

At the division 3 level it is very difficult to recruit 18 guys who can play that have the athleticism to stand up to the best teams, but also have the technical ability to possess the ball and build from the back. With a 3 month season it's near impossible to develop guys technically enough If the base is not there.

Its great that you have this noble look at the game, but guess what? You wouldn't do any of this if you're livelihood depended on it. You would decide what would get you results, and you would compromise. Very easy to say that when you go to 18 games a year to watch your son play and have zero stake in the game otherwise other then being a fan. If you think you can fix this system, then maybe you should apply for the d3 jobs that open and contribute to the development of this game in some way other then mashing keys on a keyboard.

[SoccerFan2017]

You get about 1/4 of it. What you don't mention is that among soccer-first fans in the US, folks on my side of the fence (plus the vast numbers that simply don't care) have you hugely outnumbered.

There are some of us who would like to contribute to the development of the game at this level. Would you prefer we just nod our heads and ingratiate ourselves to you? Informed critics should be the ones any business, academic or sports organizations should want to hear from if they're truly concerned with advancement. The NCAA's raving fans are raving fans...and that's ok. Just not a lot to be learned from that segment.

The 'fix', as you say, will not be easy. Then again, simple things always turn out to not be so easy. Here are a couple of ideas from the coaching end that could free up more time to work squads into a pass/possess mindset:

1. All conditioning is up to the player. No part of any practice will be devoted to any aspect of conditioning, other than measuring each player's baseline fitness the first session of preseason.

2. All ball control work is up to the player. No practice time will be devoted to touch, receiving on the proper foot, etc. No passing or control 'drills' whatsoever...your touch is grooved by day one, or it's not.

3. Two-a-day and three-a-day preseason sessions should be broken into defenders/6s only, attack/attacking mids only and gk sessions that stress footwork and distribution over saves. The first string GK works with defenders on playing out of the back. Any full team practices or infra team scrimmages should emphasize only building out of the back and creating/rehearsing patterns of attack. The ball does not leave the ground, under any circumstance.

4. Close to the season and into the season, all training moves to rondo-based work and directional rondos.

If you think you can run sessions like that and get results with a short preseason, training times that for most schools are available in one block outside of classes, etc, go ahead and try coaching a D3 team to win that way.

Everything you say sounds good in theory but again would probably only be possibly applicable to the top 5-10 percent of D3 teams.

[Clotpoll]

Would you like to see some video of a high school girls team in rural CA that mastered what I'm talking about in under two years and won a state championship? Granted, some of those girls have more ability than your average D3 male player...😂

[Clotpoll]

If we all agree that the biggest challenge to all but the top D3 players is limited time on the ball due to the breakneck pace and fresh defenses that close down fast, what better way to neutralize that disadvantage than to create extra space for such players?

[Clotpoll]

Here's some fun video of that girls HS team in rural CA. Pass/possession soccer is simple...it's just not easy in the way that lazy, fearful D3 coaches like things to be.

https://youtu.be/mLuRBSdeUhM

[Clotpoll]

Everything you say sounds good in theory but again would probably only be possibly applicable to the top 5-10 percent of D3 teams.https://youtu.be/mLuRBSdeUhM

Would you think it would be broadly applicable in D3 if a team of 11 year olds- with three practices a week- can master this style of play (in less than two years) to the point that they can go toe-to-toe with Barcelona's academy?