2017 Season - National Perspective

[Mr.Right]

I seem to have something to say whether I agree or disagree.

[Mid-Atlantic Fan]

MAF Top 10 Power Rankings
1. Calvin
2. Tufts
3. Messiah
4. St. Thomas
5. Lycoming
6. Chicago
7. Trinity
8. Oneonta St
9. Kenyon
10. Rowan
---------------------
11-25 (no order): Springfield, Amherst, JC, JHU, Newark, Drew, Lynchburg, St. Joe's, Brandeis, North Park, Bowdoin, Cortland, UR, Ogelthorpe, Otterbein

Not much has changed from last week 

The problem I have with Calvin is they have played a weak schedule.  Maybe through no fault of their own given their league and location.  Messiah and Tufts have had a much stronger schedule and are battle tested.   Hard to put them #1 when they really have not beaten any top teams.

Calvin never plays a hard schedule given they are in a poor conference and they have to play each team twice. Double whammy!

They were in the title game last year with practically the same schedule and went 23-3 (2 regular season losses and then to Tufts in the final). 24-1-1 the year before and lost to Loras in the Final 4. 18-2-3 the year before that and got knocked out of NCAA's in PKs.

So this team is doing better than last year's team and you think they don't deserve to be ranked #1? What else do they have to do? Oh yeah they are 1 of 3 remaining teams to not lose yet. They beat Messiah last year in the tournament (which that Messiah team was better than the current Messiah team in my opinion), and they are consistently making the NCAA tournament (this year will be 5 of the last 6 years) and making runs in the tournament once they get there against the best of the best. Here is the run they had to the final last year...defeated Ohio Northern, CMU, Messiah, F&M, and Brandeis before losing in a battle to Tufts. The previous year they defeated Mt. Aloysius, Ohio Wesleyan, F&M, and Kenyon before losing in the Final 4 to Loras.

So my point is this, sure I agree that they play a weak schedule. The numbers don't lie on that. Even then the SOS isn't that bad and they were unfortunate that the limited non-conference portion they get, due to playing each conference opponent twice, didn't have any of those teams get ranked. Typically they could bank on a few of OWU, Oberlin, or CWRU getting ranked. They have proven consistency over more than the last half decade and make deep tournament runs as of late. Sure we don't rank on "historical performance" but yes we actually do factor that in. Until Calvin loses why shouldn't they be ranked #1? They lost in the finals last year which meant they came into the season at #2. Why would a 17-0-1 record not qualify them to jump 1 spot?     

[rudy]

MAF Top 10 Power Rankings
1. Calvin
2. Tufts
3. Messiah
4. St. Thomas
5. Lycoming
6. Chicago
7. Trinity
8. Oneonta St
9. Kenyon
10. Rowan
---------------------
11-25 (no order): Springfield, Amherst, JC, JHU, Newark, Drew, Lynchburg, St. Joe's, Brandeis, North Park, Bowdoin, Cortland, UR, Ogelthorpe, Otterbein

Not much has changed from last week 

The problem I have with Calvin is they have played a weak schedule.  Maybe through no fault of their own given their league and location.  Messiah and Tufts have had a much stronger schedule and are battle tested.   Hard to put them #1 when they really have not beaten any top teams.

Calvin never plays a hard schedule given they are in a poor conference and they have to play each team twice. Double whammy!

They were in the title game last year with practically the same schedule and went 23-3 (2 regular season losses and then to Tufts in the final). 24-1-1 the year before and lost to Loras in the Final 4. 18-2-3 the year before that and got knocked out of NCAA's in PKs.

So this team is doing better than last year's team and you think they don't deserve to be ranked #1? What else do they have to do? Oh yeah they are 1 of 3 remaining teams to not lose yet. They beat Messiah last year in the tournament (which that Messiah team was better than the current Messiah team in my opinion), and they are consistently making the NCAA tournament (this year will be 5 of the last 6 years) and making runs in the tournament once they get there against the best of the best. Here is the run they had to the final last year...defeated Ohio Northern, CMU, Messiah, F&M, and Brandeis before losing in a battle to Tufts. The previous year they defeated Mt. Aloysius, Ohio Wesleyan, F&M, and Kenyon before losing in the Final 4 to Loras.

So my point is this, sure I agree that they play a weak schedule. The numbers don't lie on that. Even then the SOS isn't that bad and they were unfortunate that the limited non-conference portion they get, due to playing each conference opponent twice, didn't have any of those teams get ranked. Typically they could bank on a few of OWU, Oberlin, or CWRU getting ranked. They have proven consistency over more than the last half decade and make deep tournament runs as of late. Sure we don't rank on "historical performance" but yes we actually do factor that in. Until Calvin loses why shouldn't they be ranked #1? They lost in the finals last year which meant they came into the season at #2. Why would a 17-0-1 record not qualify them to jump 1 spot?   

If you take into account last year then sure you could keep that #1.  But really they are not worthy of #1 right now based on the schedule they played IMO. Based on THIS years results and schedule.  They do have one tie against an average team.  Messiah and Tufts have both beaten quality teams...Messiah has one blemish early in season and Tufts a few blemishes (1 loss and 2 ties) but have only allowed 1 goal all year!  If Calvin were 17-0-1 and had played the likes of Rowan, Lyco, John Hopkins, Amherst, Bowdoin, Brandeis, etc then I would be more inclined to give them the nod.    Sure they are a team that could win it all this year but I think you earn your rankling by playing and beating top teams..not by beating mediocre teams all year.   

[PaulNewman]

One way to figure out how good a team is to try and imagine who is gonna a beat them. I can't see Tufts, Messiah and Calvin losing to anyone other than one of the others in that group.

[Ejay]

One way to figure out how good a team is to try and imagine who is gonna a beat them. I can't see Tufts, Messiah and Calvin losing to anyone other than one of the others in that group.

You can't see Messiah losing to Rowan, yet they would have lost to Rowan had they been able to convert their PK. Not to mention, Rowan was clearly the better team in the 2nd half.  I get the love for Messiah and their history, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they lose to a handful of teams - even within the region

[rudy]

One way to figure out how good a team is to try and imagine who is gonna a beat them. I can't see Tufts, Messiah and Calvin losing to anyone other than one of the others in that group.

You can't see Messiah losing to Rowan, yet they would have lost to Rowan had they been able to convert their PK. Not to mention, Rowan was clearly the better team in the 2nd half.  I get the love for Messiah and their history, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they lose to a handful of teams - even within the region

Even as a Messiah supporter I would have to agree.  I could see probably 10-15 different teams with potential of winning it all this year..including  Rowan and RUN from NJ.   Most top ranked teams in each region could lose a tight game on any given day to another team ranked high in the region.   I think Messiah would play Rowan better at home than at their place..but Rowan is a tough game no matter what.  There is no team so clearly dominant that they are the clear favorites to win it all IMO. 

[Shooter McGavin]

MAF Top 10 Power Rankings
1. Calvin
2. Tufts
3. Messiah
4. St. Thomas
5. Lycoming
6. Chicago
7. Trinity
8. Oneonta St
9. Kenyon
10. Rowan
---------------------
11-25 (no order): Springfield, Amherst, JC, JHU, Newark, Drew, Lynchburg, St. Joe's, Brandeis, North Park, Bowdoin, Cortland, UR, Ogelthorpe, Otterbein

Not much has changed from last week 

The problem I have with Calvin is they have played a weak schedule.  Maybe through no fault of their own given their league and location.  Messiah and Tufts have had a much stronger schedule and are battle tested.   Hard to put them #1 when they really have not beaten any top teams.

Calvin never plays a hard schedule given they are in a poor conference and they have to play each team twice. Double whammy!

They were in the title game last year with practically the same schedule and went 23-3 (2 regular season losses and then to Tufts in the final). 24-1-1 the year before and lost to Loras in the Final 4. 18-2-3 the year before that and got knocked out of NCAA's in PKs.

So this team is doing better than last year's team and you think they don't deserve to be ranked #1? What else do they have to do? Oh yeah they are 1 of 3 remaining teams to not lose yet. They beat Messiah last year in the tournament (which that Messiah team was better than the current Messiah team in my opinion), and they are consistently making the NCAA tournament (this year will be 5 of the last 6 years) and making runs in the tournament once they get there against the best of the best. Here is the run they had to the final last year...defeated Ohio Northern, CMU, Messiah, F&M, and Brandeis before losing in a battle to Tufts. The previous year they defeated Mt. Aloysius, Ohio Wesleyan, F&M, and Kenyon before losing in the Final 4 to Loras.

So my point is this, sure I agree that they play a weak schedule. The numbers don't lie on that. Even then the SOS isn't that bad and they were unfortunate that the limited non-conference portion they get, due to playing each conference opponent twice, didn't have any of those teams get ranked. Typically they could bank on a few of OWU, Oberlin, or CWRU getting ranked. They have proven consistency over more than the last half decade and make deep tournament runs as of late. Sure we don't rank on "historical performance" but yes we actually do factor that in. Until Calvin loses why shouldn't they be ranked #1? They lost in the finals last year which meant they came into the season at #2. Why would a 17-0-1 record not qualify them to jump 1 spot?   

If you take into account last year then sure you could keep that #1.  But really they are not worthy of #1 right now based on the schedule they played IMO. Based on THIS years results and schedule.  They do have one tie against an average team.  Messiah and Tufts have both beaten quality teams...Messiah has one blemish early in season and Tufts a few blemishes (1 loss and 2 ties) but have only allowed 1 goal all year!  If Calvin were 17-0-1 and had played the likes of Rowan, Lyco, John Hopkins, Amherst, Bowdoin, Brandeis, etc then I would be more inclined to give them the nod.    Sure they are a team that could win it all this year but I think you earn your rankling by playing and beating top teams..not by beating mediocre teams all year.

Based on this year's results......they are 17-0-1!!!! And MAF has a point though. They cannot control the schedule when it comes to conference and they get hurt by having to play each team twice in conference. So they cannot schedule as many tough opponents in the non-conference slate to help challenge themselves. 3/4 non-conference games they had were against what many would consider, at the beginning of the year, tough teams. How it has actually turned out with Oberlin, CWRU, and OWU all under performing is unfortunate.

Furthermore, they have proven that they can beat good teams as MAF stated. They have gotten to the Final and Final 4 by beating high quality teams. I am confused why you don't think they could be #1? It's understandable that you feel Messiah or Tufts should be 1st and many would agree with you, but why shouldn't Calvin also be considered? We aren't talking about a 3 or 4 blemish team here but rather an unbeaten team that is performing better, on paper, than last year's national runner-up as MAF also pointed out.

Then you contradict yourself and say there are 10-15 teams that could beat Messiah or Tufts on any given night or have the potential to, so that indicates to me that the #1 ranking really isn't that strong this year and that's even more evidence that Calvin could and should be considered. Shot yourself in the foot with that one.

[Saint of Old]

Tufts and Messiah will always get the nod because they are championship programs.

It is a bias built into our sport.
Hence: Germany, Italy, Uruguay, England, Spain, France, Brazil and Argentina will always "seem" better than others even when they are not at their best.

People used to say Messiah played in a  weak conference, now they don't.
People used to talk a whole lot more smack about Amherst ( myself included) before they climbed the hill. Now they don't.

Easiest way for Calvin to shut the doubters up is to win one, this year is a perfect opportunity for them.

[NEFutbol90]

Not that St.Joes (Me) is in high regard on a national scale yet they do have a chance of breaking two NCAA records today. They tied the national record by Drew University for 17 straight shutouts in the first round of the GNAC playoffs against Suffolk and have a chance to break it today against Regis in the conference Semis. Also Blake Mullen the Monks 6 foot 7 goalie is 3 minutes and change away from breaking the all time consecutive shutout minutes record. While this is still a relatively small program their recruitment the last two years has made this a program to watch now and in the future. Should be another great day of playoff soccer all around the country!

[blooter442]

Not that St.Joes (Me) is in high regard on a national scale yet they do have a chance of breaking two NCAA records today. They tied the national record by Drew University for 17 straight shutouts in the first round of the GNAC playoffs against Suffolk and have a chance to break it today against Regis in the conference Semis. Also Blake Mullen the Monks 6 foot 7 goalie is 3 minutes and change away from breaking the all time consecutive shutout minutes record. While this is still a relatively small program their recruitment the last two years has made this a program to watch now and in the future. Should be another great day of playoff soccer all around the country!

They might not get a ton of love nationally, but -- even putting aside my Maine homer bias -- that is impressive. Regardless of the schedule you play, records like those are difficult to break.

[rudy]

MAF Top 10 Power Rankings
1. Calvin
2. Tufts
3. Messiah
4. St. Thomas
5. Lycoming
6. Chicago
7. Trinity
8. Oneonta St
9. Kenyon
10. Rowan
---------------------
11-25 (no order): Springfield, Amherst, JC, JHU, Newark, Drew, Lynchburg, St. Joe's, Brandeis, North Park, Bowdoin, Cortland, UR, Ogelthorpe, Otterbein

Not much has changed from last week 

The problem I have with Calvin is they have played a weak schedule.  Maybe through no fault of their own given their league and location.  Messiah and Tufts have had a much stronger schedule and are battle tested.   Hard to put them #1 when they really have not beaten any top teams.

Calvin never plays a hard schedule given they are in a poor conference and they have to play each team twice. Double whammy!

They were in the title game last year with practically the same schedule and went 23-3 (2 regular season losses and then to Tufts in the final). 24-1-1 the year before and lost to Loras in the Final 4. 18-2-3 the year before that and got knocked out of NCAA's in PKs.

So this team is doing better than last year's team and you think they don't deserve to be ranked #1? What else do they have to do? Oh yeah they are 1 of 3 remaining teams to not lose yet. They beat Messiah last year in the tournament (which that Messiah team was better than the current Messiah team in my opinion), and they are consistently making the NCAA tournament (this year will be 5 of the last 6 years) and making runs in the tournament once they get there against the best of the best. Here is the run they had to the final last year...defeated Ohio Northern, CMU, Messiah, F&M, and Brandeis before losing in a battle to Tufts. The previous year they defeated Mt. Aloysius, Ohio Wesleyan, F&M, and Kenyon before losing in the Final 4 to Loras.

So my point is this, sure I agree that they play a weak schedule. The numbers don't lie on that. Even then the SOS isn't that bad and they were unfortunate that the limited non-conference portion they get, due to playing each conference opponent twice, didn't have any of those teams get ranked. Typically they could bank on a few of OWU, Oberlin, or CWRU getting ranked. They have proven consistency over more than the last half decade and make deep tournament runs as of late. Sure we don't rank on "historical performance" but yes we actually do factor that in. Until Calvin loses why shouldn't they be ranked #1? They lost in the finals last year which meant they came into the season at #2. Why would a 17-0-1 record not qualify them to jump 1 spot?   

If you take into account last year then sure you could keep that #1.  But really they are not worthy of #1 right now based on the schedule they played IMO. Based on THIS years results and schedule.  They do have one tie against an average team.  Messiah and Tufts have both beaten quality teams...Messiah has one blemish early in season and Tufts a few blemishes (1 loss and 2 ties) but have only allowed 1 goal all year!  If Calvin were 17-0-1 and had played the likes of Rowan, Lyco, John Hopkins, Amherst, Bowdoin, Brandeis, etc then I would be more inclined to give them the nod.    Sure they are a team that could win it all this year but I think you earn your rankling by playing and beating top teams..not by beating mediocre teams all year.

Based on this year's results......they are 17-0-1!!!! And MAF has a point though. They cannot control the schedule when it comes to conference and they get hurt by having to play each team twice in conference. So they cannot schedule as many tough opponents in the non-conference slate to help challenge themselves. 3/4 non-conference games they had were against what many would consider, at the beginning of the year, tough teams. How it has actually turned out with Oberlin, CWRU, and OWU all under performing is unfortunate.

Furthermore, they have proven that they can beat good teams as MAF stated. They have gotten to the Final and Final 4 by beating high quality teams. I am confused why you don't think they could be #1? It's understandable that you feel Messiah or Tufts should be 1st and many would agree with you, but why shouldn't Calvin also be considered? We aren't talking about a 3 or 4 blemish team here but rather an unbeaten team that is performing better, on paper, than last year's national runner-up as MAF also pointed out.

Then you contradict yourself and say there are 10-15 teams that could beat Messiah or Tufts on any given night or have the potential to, so that indicates to me that the #1 ranking really isn't that strong this year and that's even more evidence that Calvin could and should be considered. Shot yourself in the foot with that one.

I didn't shoot myself in the foot at all.   Just because I think a team should not be ranked #1 unless they actually beat a few strong teams THIS year doesn't mean I can't also believe any of the top 10-15 teams can beat each other on any given day.  Your logic is flawed. BTW I'm not the only one to think this way if you look at the D3 Soccer poll.

[PaulNewman]

Clarification time...

When I said Tufts, Messiah and Calvin were three teams I could only picture losing to one of the others in that group, I should have instead said those are the teams I wouldn't be surprised to see losing to the others or that of course they could lose to 15-20 teams on a given day but that as a fan of any of them I would want to avoid the other two specifically.  Didn't mean to rile a Rowan fan or any other fans.  I'll use my fave, Kenyon.  The Lords could beat any of those three teams on a given day but I don't think any of them will shake in their boots if they see Kenyon in their draw.  If Messiah plays Tufts in a Sweet 16 or Elite 8 game, regardless of what you may read here, Falcons fans are going to be extremely anxious about that game.  That's more what I meant.

As for Calvin, in any given season one can question their record and competition, although the history makes that rather silly IMO.  In my view, there is no reason to question the program itself, AT ALL, unless a national title is the barometer for everyone.  National finals in 2011 and 2016, Final Four in 2015, and I think another Final Four within the past 8-9 years.  As I think MAF liad out, just look at their rusn and who they beat the past two seasons in NCAA play.  I'll simply say this....play them at your own risk.

[firstplaceloser]

Tufts and Messiah will always get the nod because they are championship programs.

It is a bias built into our sport.
Hence: Germany, Italy, Uruguay, England, Spain, France, Brazil and Argentina will always "seem" better than others even when they are not at their best.

People used to say Messiah played in a  weak conference, now they don't.
People used to talk a whole lot more smack about Amherst ( myself included) before they climbed the hill. Now they don't.

Easiest way for Calvin to shut the doubters up is to win one, this year is a perfect opportunity for them.

AMEN. couldn't have said it anymore perfect than this.

[firstplaceloser]

Clarification time...

When I said Tufts, Messiah and Calvin were three teams I could only picture losing to one of the others in that group, I should have instead said those are the teams I wouldn't be surprised to see losing to the others or that of course they could lose to 15-20 teams on a given day but that as a fan of any of them I would want to avoid the other two specifically.  Didn't mean to rile a Rowan fan or any other fans.  I'll use my fave, Kenyon.  The Lords could beat any of those three teams on a given day but I don't think any of them will shake in their boots if they see Kenyon in their draw.  If Messiah plays Tufts in a Sweet 16 or Elite 8 game, regardless of what you may read here, Falcons fans are going to be extremely anxious about that game.  That's more what I meant.




As for Calvin, in any given season one can question their record and competition, although the history makes that rather silly IMO.  In my view, there is no reason to question the program itself, AT ALL, unless a national title is the barometer for everyone.  National finals in 2011 and 2016, Final Four in 2015, and I think another Final Four within the past 8-9 years.  As I think MAF liad out, just look at their rusn and who they beat the past two seasons in NCAA play.  I'll simply say this....play them at your own risk.

you make very good points here. drawing a team like tufts is a nightmare. just like Loras, York(pa), Oneonta St, Montclair 4-5 years ago is the same thing. Teams that could easily end your season on any given day. i for one would not want to see Calvin Messiah Lycoming Tufts could even throw Rowan in there for this year. i think we are in for a treat in this years NCAA tournament.

[Ejay]

the #1 ranking really isn't that strong this year

Does everyone honestly think it's improbable for anyone outside of #1-4 to win this year? Would it really shock you if RUN or Rowan, or Lycoming or Drew, or Cortland or Oneonta or handful of other teams made a run and won it all? Nobody is going to cake walk to the final.