2017 Season - National Perspective

[lastguyoffthebench]

Deflected goals: see Messiah 2013 final four

1st goal vs Williams
1st goal vs Camden

Nearly identical situations for Ramirez... Shots off defender.   

Sometimes luck IS good, even when your team doesn't need it

[Flying Weasel]

What made the 2013 Messiah squad perhaps better than the 2014 version was Josh Wood.  Not only was he POY with his nose for goal, but having him in the lineup as the target allowed Jeremy Payne to play in the hole as an attacking mid which was where he was at his best. I think 2013 Messiah has a better shot of scoring and beating 2014 Tufts than 2014 Messiah.  That said, you replay the Tufts-Messiah Elite 8 match 10 times, 2014 Messiah is going score some goals and win 50% of the time or more and the "Giant Slayer" shot won't be repeated.

[d4_Pace]

Falconer,
It's funny that you Majumder was the first name you mentioned, since he didn't start for the 2014 team. 

In regards to playing each other during the regular season, we talked about how awesome it would be to go down and play at Messiah or have some of the other top teams come up to Medford for an early season tournament.  But with the NESCAC's stringent pre-season and opening weekend rules it was never feasible.

[PaulNewman]

Falconer, I think you were referring to me. IIRC I said I thought maybe 2-3 Tufts players might have started for Messiah. Of course the easiest method might be for you to suggest which 2014  Messiah players would not have started. You may also recall that I confused 2013 and 2014 Messiah squads which I conceded led me to overestimate in Messiah's favor. No question Tufts 2014 turned into a great team, but don't forget there was a real question of that team even getting a bid. I would contend that momentum meant a lot, beginning with the moment Mr. Kayne loves to remind us about, and continued in 2015, 2016 and even this year. Tufts now is a legit powerhouse. A couple of different bounces might have altered the trajectory, just like this year Messiah might have run into a tougher draw, especially in the sweet 16 and Elite 8, and of course a bounce Brandeis' way could have kept Messiah out of the Final.

You seem focused on Tufts with your focus on the importance of scoring and certainly there feels like a real rivalry is brewing. I was glad Brandeis knocked Tufts out but we also were thereby cheated out of a Messiah-Tufts rematch. It's hard to argue that Tufts would have been fortunate to reach the Final 4 without a  single goal, but Tufts might have had more offense in a more open game.  Messiah did leave teams a lot of space, especially on the counter, so who knows if Tufts would have scored and of course we don't know for sure that Messiah would have scored. Ultimately "what ifs" don't matter so congrats on another title, and maybe we will get another Messiah-Tufts showdown over the next couple of years.

[Gregory Sager]

The same can obviously be said about Chicago and NPU, both of whom will return their best players, especially NPU—the youngest team (in terms of class standing) I can remember seeing in the final game. (One puzzle for me: according to the United Soccer Coaches web site, NPU first team AA MF Matias Warp is a SR. But, he's listed as just a sophomore on NPU's roster. Can someone sort this out?)

Warp has two years of eligibility remaining. However, like a lot of the Scandinavians that've played for North Park over the years, he arrived on campus with multiple college credits already in hand, since the gymnasium system in several European countries such as Norway and Sweden goes deeper into college-level curricula than is the case among American high schools, where AP class opportunities are sparser by comparison. I think that Matias will have enough credits in hand to graduate in May. Whether he does so or not, or whether he chooses to go on for a graduate degree at NPU that would allow him to continue playing (which is not uncommon among NPU student-athletes) remains to be seen.

It's part of the tradeoff that the NPU soccer program has made in bringing in Swedes and Norwegians. (It's true at NPU in general, in fact, since there are a lot of Swedes and Norwegians on campus who are not soccer players.) On the one hand, their high skill level and the fact that they're often a year or two or three older than their American peers has enabled NPU head coach John Born to plug them into the lineup immediately upon arrival without any of the usual growing pains associated with playing freshmen. On the other hand, it's meant that he's often only been able to get three years of playing time (or, in Warp's case, possibly only two) out of them before they graduate and return home to Scandinavia.

[Flying Weasel]

December 8, 2017
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Final

#	School (1st Pl. Votes)	Record	Pts.	Prev.
1	Messiah (17)	24-2-0	1000	5
2	Chicago	19-2-2	946	7
3	North Park	20-2-2	908	12
4	Brandeis	17-5-0	842	20
5	Calvin	21-1-1	831	1
6	Tufts	15-2-4	786	3
7	St. Thomas	22-2-0	774	6
8	Johns Hopkins	16-1-4	646	11
9	Lycoming	19-3-0	626	4
10	Trinity (Texas)	21-2-0	602	2
11	Drew	21-1-1	600	10
12	Rutgers-Newark	20-3-1	466	8
13	Emory	15-5-2	431	—
14	Lynchburg	18-2-2	411	14
15	John Carroll	16-3-2	409	16
16	Oneonta State	15-2-3	404	9
17	Rochester	14-4-3	356	—
18	Otterbein	19-3-0	325	21
19	St. Joseph's (Maine)	19-0-2	318	17
20	Amherst	12-4-3	297	18
21	Cortland State	16-4-0	282	13
22	Rowan	17-4-1	261	15
23	Kenyon	16-3-3	211	19
24	Oglethorpe	17-2-2	151	22
25	Mary Hardin-Baylor	17-3-1	141	—

Dropped out: No. 23 Springfield, No. 24 Transylvania, No. 25 Christopher Newport

Receiving Votes: Springfield 104, Washington and Lee 73, Stevens 54, Buffalo State 19, Bowdoin 14, Carnegie Mellon 9, Transylvania 7, Christopher Newport 7, Loras 2, Middlebury 2

The D3soccer.com Top 25 is voted on by a panel of coaches, Sports Information Directors and D3soccer.com staff, and is published weekly.

[Mr.Right]

Interesting that Sweet 16 side Stevens did not even make the cut. Granted they were over matched and did not have a great regular season but still were 13-7-2. In 2013, Williams made it to the Final 4 but had an equally unimpressive final record at 15-7-0 but they finished up ranked #8.

[firstplaceloser]

Interesting that Sweet 16 side Stevens did not even make the cut. Granted they were over matched and did not have a great regular season but still were 13-7-2. In 2013, Williams made it to the Final 4 but had an equally unimpressive final record at 15-7-0 but they finished up ranked #8.

I agree 100% also how can chicago finish above NPU. don't the teams play a final 4 to determine who is 1 and 2? usually 3 and 4 are an easier determination.

[Mr.Right]

Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

[blue_jays]

Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

They likely looked at the NCAA semifinal as the better indicator, which UChicago controlled throughout and had their full complement of players, unlike the October matchup which did not feature Adeosun or Romero.
Also looking at body of work for the season, the Maroons played a harder schedule and also had a much tougher road to the Final Four. IMO the ranking is correct.

[firstplaceloser]

Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

They likely looked at the NCAA semifinal as the better indicator, which UChicago controlled throughout and had their full complement of players, unlike the October matchup which did not feature Adeosun or Romero.
Also looking at body of work for the season, the Maroons played a harder schedule and also had a much tougher road to the Final Four. IMO the ranking is correct.

yeah i'd have to agree that they def got it right. just do t think it's right in a way. you don't make a national final by accident. give them some respect. sheesh

[Buck O.]

Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

They likely looked at the NCAA semifinal as the better indicator, which UChicago controlled throughout and had their full complement of players, unlike the October matchup which did not feature Adeosun or Romero.
Also looking at body of work for the season, the Maroons played a harder schedule and also had a much tougher road to the Final Four. IMO the ranking is correct.

yeah i'd have to agree that they def got it right. just do t think it's right in a way. you don't make a national final by accident. give them some respect. sheesh

They were ranked third in the country.  Seems to me that's a lot of respect.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I agree 100% also how can chicago finish above NPU. don't the teams play a final 4 to determine who is 1 and 2? usually 3 and 4 are an easier determination.

The NCAA has a tournament to determine who wins it for the NCAA... not a national poll which isn't even involved. A national poll isn't obligated to take that information and plot it out accordingly especially when the bracket doesn't include only the best teams and in a way that would help make sure the top teams get to the end (not arguing for changing the tournament, just pointing out the differences).

No voter should be obligated to vote how the tournament finishes outside of the top team - though, I know of times it has been an interesting conversation.

Chicago dominated North Park in their semifinal appearance. Because North Park advanced on a shoot-out that went eight frames, they are automatically better and should be ranked higher than Chicago? The Maroons outshot the Vikings 20-5 (18-1 after regulation, I think). The Maroons actually scored on the Vikings, despite the call being incorrect. And North Park was searching for answers throughout the game.

If I was voting (and I used to), I would have had Chicago ahead of North Park in the final rankings as well. I am sure the voters saw the same game most of us saw and the only way I would have ranked North Park ahead of Chicago was if they won the national championship (interestingly if that had happened, I would have put Chicago second as well).

Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

That game in most voter's minds is going to be irrelevant compared to the most recent game. The poll is about now, not October.

[Mr.Right]

I agree 100% also how can chicago finish above NPU. don't the teams play a final 4 to determine who is 1 and 2? usually 3 and 4 are an easier determination.

The NCAA has a tournament to determine who wins it for the NCAA... not a national poll which isn't even involved. A national poll isn't obligated to take that information and plot it out accordingly especially when the bracket doesn't include only the best teams and in a way that would help make sure the top teams get to the end (not arguing for changing the tournament, just pointing out the differences).

No voter should be obligated to vote how the tournament finishes outside of the top team - though, I know of times it has been an interesting conversation.

Chicago dominated North Park in their semifinal appearance. Because North Park advanced on a shoot-out that went eight frames, they are automatically better and should be ranked higher than Chicago? The Maroons outshot the Vikings 20-5 (18-1 after regulation, I think). The Maroons actually scored on the Vikings, despite the call being incorrect. And North Park was searching for answers throughout the game.

If I was voting (and I used to), I would have had Chicago ahead of North Park in the final rankings as well. I am sure the voters saw the same game most of us saw and the only way I would have ranked North Park ahead of Chicago was if they won the national championship (interestingly if that had happened, I would have put Chicago second as well).

Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

That game in most voter's minds is going to be irrelevant compared to the most recent game. The poll is about now, not October.

Funny how these "voters" take into account how the team played in a certain game to determine the final rankings. It would be nice if they did that all season instead of just the last few games of the year. I agree Chicago was the better team but since when do these voters(some not all) take into consideration how a team "looked" against another team. I would guess a lot of voters do not see more than a couple games a week during the season IF THAT...Seems a bit unfair to me and please do not give me a paragraph explaining how I do not know for sure who watches what games and how many they watch.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

You actually don't know who watches what or how much they do or don't watch. Don't need to give you a paragraph.. you already know that and basically said so.

I seems to me that maybe because the polls or others don't agree with you that they must not have done their job or know what they are talking about. I don't know the voters on the D3soccer poll, but being one who has voted in my fair share of national polls, most voters I know don't mail these things in.

Clearly, you didn't like the results earlier... but that's in the past. Now they probably did what you wish they had done earlier... and you find fault.

Just a guess.