2017 Season - National Perspective

[PaulNewman]

A data point of only one on NYU --but we knew a prospie interested in NYU who was told by the program that everyone interested in playing comes to tryouts, the team is selected then, and there is no admissions bump for prospective players.

Interesting.

Speaking of odd places for good D3 soccer teams, I wonder what percentage of the U Chicago student body A) even knows that the men's and/or women's team were in the Final Four and B) have ever attended a game where they stayed for more than 15 minutes.

[PaulNewman]

While I'm just pondering the universe for a few minutes, I just wondered to myself why more players or very recent players aren't posting, especially knowing how the competitive juices flow and some of the stuff players have to read from fools like myself.  We have the new Tufts addition which has been great, but we want more.

I'd be curious to see some players and recent players share some stuff about how they made their choices....the school first, the soccer program first, how the combo worked, location, how much the coach was a dealmaker or dealbreaker, etc, etc...  I'm especially interested in my theory that there is a trend towards the UAA type and Tufts-type schools versus the LACs.  I don't necessarily agree, as I am a big LAC fan, but I think this might parallel a shift towards thinking a UAA type school is somehow a little more practical or career/professional oriented (in gross terms, like engineering versus philosophy).

[d4_Pace]

Paul Newman despite the Kenyon-Tufts rivalry you have been one of my favorite posters so I'll give it a shot.  First off, I do know of some other players that post more anonymously than I have, so they are out there.  In terms of choice...

I think you are right about the shift towards mid sized schools.  Most of the other NESCACs, Haverford, Swarthmore schools are smaller than my high school which I thought would be odd.  Second, I think Tufts being located right next to Boston is a huge advantage over the other NESCACs in terms of recruiting. Tufts is also kind of an anomaly in your LAC vs UAA type argument because the school advertises itself as a liberal arts university.  We are still part of the NESCAC and the majority of the school is in a liberal arts program.  But it also offers engineering and the hard science classes that attracted a couple guys on the team each year who would not have considered other NESCACs.
For me, I think soccer played a bigger factor than what other poster speculated.  I only was looking at "good" academic schools and knew that I would be able to fit in/take the classes I specifically wanted at any of the schools.  So while there was some small difference in the reputation of the schools I was considering, it was small enough to not play a significant role.  That meant the biggest thing was relationship with the coach, playing style, and potential to play right away, as well as potential for success.  But the final and most important factor was something less tangible or quantifiable, my experience on my official visit.  At certain schools the team dynamic or vibe was off, but at Tufts I instantly knew I wanted to be a part of that group of guys.  And I think that type of culture has remained the schools biggest selling point. 

The other big factor this post doesn't consider and is huge for the elite d3 schools is the d1 vs d3 debate.  But thats a whole other argument. 

[The Cove]

While I'm just pondering the universe for a few minutes, I just wondered to myself why more players or very recent players aren't posting, especially knowing how the competitive juices flow and some of the stuff players have to read from fools like myself.  We have the new Tufts addition which has been great, but we want more.

We're here... if one looks hard enough!

[rolldeisroll]

Along with this topic, what percentage of D1 teams would the ELITE D3 teams beat? There is much debate about how "you went D1" even if you play at a crappy school, and that would be seen as "better" then someone who plays at a Messiah, Brandeis, or Tufts, for example. So how do you think the best 4-6 teams in D3 this year, let's say the Final Four teams, and Tufts and Calvin, just for arguments sake, would fare against D1 teams. Of course there would be a big gap in depth and size between these programs, but I feel like these 6 teams could put up a good fight against a good amount of D1 teams

[rudy]

Along with this topic, what percentage of D1 teams would the ELITE D3 teams beat? There is much debate about how "you went D1" even if you play at a crappy school, and that would be seen as "better" then someone who plays at a Messiah, Brandeis, or Tufts, for example. So how do you think the best 4-6 teams in D3 this year, let's say the Final Four teams, and Tufts and Calvin, just for arguments sake, would fare against D1 teams. Of course there would be a big gap in depth and size between these programs, but I feel like these 6 teams could put up a good fight against a good amount of D1 teams

This debate will never die (-;
Let's put it this way.  Pretty much all of Messiah's starting 11 and also some coming off the bench were also recruited to play at mid major, and even  higher, D1 schools (Syracuse, Vermont, Bucknell, BC, NC State, Loyola, etc, even Akron in the past!).  For their own personal reasons they chose Messiah.  That is likely similar at other top D3 soccer programs.   Messiah has played Ivy and other D1 schools in the off season many times (Bucknell) and either beat, tied, or lost close games.  They also play D2 schools locally.  Of course in off season both teams are playing deep into their bench as it is more of a scrimmage but no doubt a top D3 can compete with many D1 programs.  Top 25 D1 programs would be more of a challenge obviously.

[PaulNewman]

Paul Newman despite the Kenyon-Tufts rivalry you have been one of my favorite posters so I'll give it a shot.  First off, I do know of some other players that post more anonymously than I have, so they are out there.  In terms of choice...

I think you are right about the shift towards mid sized schools.  Most of the other NESCACs, Haverford, Swarthmore schools are smaller than my high school which I thought would be odd.  Second, I think Tufts being located right next to Boston is a huge advantage over the other NESCACs in terms of recruiting. Tufts is also kind of an anomaly in your LAC vs UAA type argument because the school advertises itself as a liberal arts university.  We are still part of the NESCAC and the majority of the school is in a liberal arts program.  But it also offers engineering and the hard science classes that attracted a couple guys on the team each year who would not have considered other NESCACs.
For me, I think soccer played a bigger factor than what other poster speculated.  I only was looking at "good" academic schools and knew that I would be able to fit in/take the classes I specifically wanted at any of the schools.  So while there was some small difference in the reputation of the schools I was considering, it was small enough to not play a significant role.  That meant the biggest thing was relationship with the coach, playing style, and potential to play right away, as well as potential for success.  But the final and most important factor was something less tangible or quantifiable, my experience on my official visit.  At certain schools the team dynamic or vibe was off, but at Tufts I instantly knew I wanted to be a part of that group of guys.  And I think that type of culture has remained the schools biggest selling point. 

The other big factor this post doesn't consider and is huge for the elite d3 schools is the d1 vs d3 debate.  But thats a whole other argument.

d4_Pace, you have catapulted yourself right to the top of my Tufts All-Time Faves Players List, even though I have no clue who you are.  While I am not happy about the lack of Final Four appearances and titles from 2014 thru 2016 for the Lords I think the Tufts-Kenyon rivalry is just the kind of intersectional deal that many of us crave and that is great for D3 soccer (and that many have said we'd like to see more often in the early season and not just very randomly in the tournament).  Kenyon could easily make a trip to New England at least every 2nd or 3rd year or so in that first week or two, especially when New England kids are on the roster, just as Kenyon and other schools should take advantage of the overseas allowance (and Kenyon hasn't done that either...and I'm not clear if NESCAC schools can or can't).  Recruiting at the top I'm sure is pretty fierce, so some small things and perks can be big, and for example I wonder if some coaches are hoping their teams do something similar to what you guys did in the cinematic realm.

I think most of the UAA schools would consider themselves within the "liberal arts" genre or at least having a major liberal arts component so when I refer to LACs, I am referring to the US News category of LACs where in general the high end of enrollment is 2800-3200 (Wesleyan, Oberlin come to mind).  Tufts might not be quite as pre-med heavy as Wash U and Hopkins (I know, Centennial) or maybe even Emory but I think of Tufts and Emory as very, very similar.  Carnegie is sort of its own deal.  Chicago is super-intellectual.  Rochester and Case are sort of hybrids with everything, and Brandeis is sort of its own deal.  Anyway, culturally as a New England school and athletically Tufts obviously fits well in the NESCAC but I could Tufts fitting just as well as a UAA school.

[PaulNewman]

While I'm just pondering the universe for a few minutes, I just wondered to myself why more players or very recent players aren't posting, especially knowing how the competitive juices flow and some of the stuff players have to read from fools like myself.  We have the new Tufts addition which has been great, but we want more.

We're here... if one looks hard enough!

I know, but still in a pretty stealthy kind of way for the most part.  I'm surprised some of you aren't more like some of us 50-somethings in terms of not  being able to contain yourselves, being a little more boisterous and reacting to things you read, etc, etc, etc.

As for you, I'm not sure who you are but certainly myself and a couple of your former teammates have taken guesses at who you might be 

One thing:  if you're gonna recap events from 2013, 2014, 2015, etc you've got to be sure your data points are 100% accurate and chronological 

That said, may you find the "Middle Path" in all of your future endeavors.

And let's hope Lowry, Carmona and company with maybe a returning Stengel can keep our Lords in the mix.

[NESCAC43]

Still I am not all familiar with NYU admissions and it is quite possible that they do not care about athletics and give coaches no more options than any other school.

That being said I have no clue about NYU admissions and it is possible that they only allow that 3-4 number to slide in...

This is exactly my point. You don't know how NYU manages its admissions policies. Presumably, NESCAC23 doesn't, either. You can't simply tally up enrollment totals and conclude, "Well, School X is a whole lot bigger than School Y, so it must be easier to recruit there ... so why can't School X do better?", without a working knowledge of how that school's admissions process works vis-a-vis the considerations given to athletics participation among applicants, among other things.

NYU's enrollment, granted the multitude of programs they offer, is much larger than the average D3 school (26,000 undergrad students was the most recent number I found). How is it that a university of NYU's caliber with such a large enrollment, foreign student attractiveness, and in one of the most desirable cities in the world not have a better soccer team?

I'm always baffled when people quote enrollment figures as though they should be some sort of metric of a school's athletic success, or lack thereof. Unless a school has a coach who isn't doing his or her job, no coach in D3 creates a team from the student body at large. He or she recruits student-athletes who arrive on campus with the specific intention to play for that coach's team. In other words, enrollment size is irrelevant, because the players listed on the roster were specifically brought to that school to play that particular sport.

Take a look at this year's Final Four, and how each side got to Greensboro, in terms of enrollment:

Messiah (2800 undergrads) > Rochester (5100 undergrads)
North Park (1900 undergrads) > St. Thomas (5800 undergrads)
Chicago (5600 undergrads) > Emory (6600 undergrads)
Brandeis (3700 undergrads) > Tufts (5000 undergrads)

Enrollment size matters in high school in terms of sports. It doesn't matter in college.

You just selected four matchups (8 teams) all within 4,700 students of each other. We're talking about a university with 26,000 students! That is a 20,000 student difference from the highest enrollment you just listed. My point is not that the higher enrollment, the better your team should be. My point is with an enrollment significantly higher than that of your competition with the caliber of school you are attending, I would expect NYU to have a better soccer team. As someone pointed out earlier, sliding in a few recruits with sub-par academic performance in high school (in relation to other applicants) is easier at a school with higher enrollments than those with < 5,000 students as it is less of a percentage you are making an "exception" for.

And, again, unless you have insider knowledge of how NYU admissions works, your expectation is groundless. Look at the evidence, which goes far, far deeper than men's soccer. Here are the undergraduate enrollments of the UAA schools:

Brandeis	3,600
Carnegie Mellon	6,700
Case Western Reserve	5,100
Chicago	5,900
Emory	6,800
NYU	25,000
Rochester	6,300
Washington (MO)	7,500

Setting aside sports that are sponsored by fewer than half of the UAA's schools (e.g., wrestling and women's golf), you have to go all the way back to the 2009-10 school year to find NYU winning a UAA title in anything (for the record, it was men's cross-country). That's right; in UAA-sponsored sports in which most or all of the league's schools compete, the Fighting Violets are now in a department-wide title drought that's seven years long and counting. That's not simply a matter of the soccer pitch being a 45-minute subway ride from campus. That's the entire athletics department, across the board. There are clearly administrative decisions that have been made at NYU that affect the school's ability to compete in sports within its league.

And that's why enrollment size tells you nothing about NYU sports.

Again, my point is not correlating overall enrollment to their performance. It is how surprised I was at how much larger their enrollment is than their competition, how attractive the university is (both location and academics), and with all this they seem to have underperformed in relation to similar (academic caliber) urban universities in big cities (Chicago, Emory, Tufts, Carnegie Mellon, etc.).

[d4_Pace]

Paul, I agree that Tufts probably would make more sense as a UAA from a school profile, although I'm definitely glad we didn't have to fly across the country every other weekend.  I think one other factor I forgot to mention was the ability to go abroad.  I think about 60-70% of the guys went abroad during my time which was a huge attraction and one of the highlights of my experience.  That's also a huge selling point for d3 over most d1s. 

I also wish we could have the opportunity to play more of the out of region powers each year.  Unfortunately, the NESCAC starts a week later which eliminates the first weekend when Brandeis has played Trinity (tx) and Haverford within the last couple of years.  I sure wouldn't have minded the chance to go play out in California or Texas

[d4_Pace]

The d1 vs d3 argument is always tough.  I think generally speaking the top d3 teams would fall somewhere in the 50-75 range of d1 teams depending on the season.  2014 Messiah may have pushed ever higher (they actually beat or tied Georgetown in a spring scrimmage).  I think the biggest difference is resources and schedule.  The NESCAC has no spring season whereas d1 schools have a full spring schedule with coaches.  I also think strength and conditioning programs are generally much more professional at d1 programs than most d3 schools.  But any given year the top 10 or so d3 teams would probably be near the top of the patriot and ivy leagues. 

[NESCAC43]

The d1 vs d3 argument is always tough.  I think generally speaking the top d3 teams would fall somewhere in the 50-75 range of d1 teams depending on the season.  2014 Messiah may have pushed ever higher (they actually beat or tied Georgetown in a spring scrimmage).  I think the biggest difference is resources and schedule.  The NESCAC has no spring season whereas d1 schools have a full spring schedule with coaches.  I also think strength and conditioning programs are generally much more professional at d1 programs than most d3 schools.  But any given year the top 10 or so d3 teams would probably be near the top of the patriot and ivy leagues.

I think that last sentence may be a stretch. No question that the top 15 teams (the Messiahs, Calvins, Trinitys, etc.) in D3 could compete with the 75-100 range D1 teams on any given day. But the gap between the top of D1 and top of D3 is quite large IMO. I remember that Messiah spring game against G'Town. G'Town didn't play its starters for more than 10 min if I remember correctly but Messiah won 3-2 against the backups I believe which still shows the quality of top D3 teams. But to say they would finish around the top of the Patriot and Ivy Leagues might be a little too much.

[PaulNewman]

The d1 vs d3 argument is always tough.  I think generally speaking the top d3 teams would fall somewhere in the 50-75 range of d1 teams depending on the season.  2014 Messiah may have pushed ever higher (they actually beat or tied Georgetown in a spring scrimmage).  I think the biggest difference is resources and schedule.  The NESCAC has no spring season whereas d1 schools have a full spring schedule with coaches.  I also think strength and conditioning programs are generally much more professional at d1 programs than most d3 schools.  But any given year the top 10 or so d3 teams would probably be near the top of the patriot and ivy leagues.

I think that last sentence may be a stretch. No question that the top 15 teams (the Messiahs, Calvins, Trinitys, etc.) in D3 could compete with the 75-100 range D1 teams on any given day. But the gap between the top of D1 and top of D3 is quite large IMO. I remember that Messiah spring game against G'Town. G'Town didn't play its starters for more than 10 min if I remember correctly but Messiah won 3-2 against the backups I believe which still shows the quality of top D3 teams. But to say they would finish around the top of the Patriot and Ivy Leagues might be a little too much.

I agree.  Hard to think Tufts would beat Harvard, and my guess would be that Tufts might sometimes grind out a draw but would look like Bates or Colby versus Tufts in doing so (in terms of possession).  Also hard to think of Tufts finishing ahead of several Ivies in a league setting.  Sort of hope I'm wrong but don't think I am.

[The Cove]

While I'm just pondering the universe for a few minutes, I just wondered to myself why more players or very recent players aren't posting, especially knowing how the competitive juices flow and some of the stuff players have to read from fools like myself.  We have the new Tufts addition which has been great, but we want more.

We're here... if one looks hard enough!

I know, but still in a pretty stealthy kind of way for the most part.  I'm surprised some of you aren't more like some of us 50-somethings in terms of not  being able to contain yourselves, being a little more boisterous and reacting to things you read, etc, etc, etc.

As for you, I'm not sure who you are but certainly myself and a couple of your former teammates have taken guesses at who you might be 

One thing:  if you're gonna recap events from 2013, 2014, 2015, etc you've got to be sure your data points are 100% accurate and chronological 

That said, may you find the "Middle Path" in all of your future endeavors.

And let's hope Lowry, Carmona and company with maybe a returning Stengel can keep our Lords in the mix.

I can only imagine the stealthy contributions are for fear of being "outed" (excuse the word choice). Especially if the posters have been discussed on this forum in the past!

lol, I welcome the guess but I have a sneaky suspicion those guesses are way off the mark... just like my recaps

As for Lowry,  I just pray that next year he gets the national recognition he has long deserved!

[PaulNewman]

I know, but still in a pretty stealthy kind of way for the most part.  I'm surprised some of you aren't more like some of us 50-somethings in terms of not  being able to contain yourselves, being a little more boisterous and reacting to things you read, etc, etc, etc.

As for you, I'm not sure who you are but certainly myself and a couple of your former teammates have taken guesses at who you might be 

One thing:  if you're gonna recap events from 2013, 2014, 2015, etc you've got to be sure your data points are 100% accurate and chronological 

That said, may you find the "Middle Path" in all of your future endeavors.

And let's hope Lowry, Carmona and company with maybe a returning Stengel can keep our Lords in the mix.

I can only guess the participation is stealthy because young contributors fear being "outed" (excuse the word choice here). Especially if they themselves have been discussed on this forum at some point.

lol. I welcome the guesses but I have a sneaky suspicion those guesses are all way off the mark... just like my game recaps

On Lowry, I just pray he finally gets the national recognition he deserves next year!
[/quote]

Ummm...I've got some pretty smart guys including a pretty smart All-American getting a Ph.D. assisting me.

What was your take on the Tufts-Kenyon Elite 8 game?  The Lords left too many goals out on field the previous day versus Trinity?  Bad karma having to play Tufts again on their field?  Could have gone either way, like the year before, as D4_Pace suggested?