Mid-Atlantic Region

[PaulNewman]

I watched and my point is a really great team would have separated themselves from Hopkins and the refs.

Excellent points Enmore.
[/quot

I watched and my point is a really great team would have separated themselves from Hopkins and the refs.

Excellent points Enmore.

OK, I'll bite.

Who in your estimation IS worthy? Or no outstanding teams this year?

F&M, Hopkins, UMW...all trash?

Is it a New England vs Mid-Atlantic (and maybe also Midwest) thing? Maybe just a little real analysis to augment your declarations would be helpful.

[paclassic89]

Yes, it seems to be a NESCAC vs Mid-Atlantic thing.  The same poster commented that F&M would be a bottom half NESCAC team.  Also without any analysis

[SKUD]

You know the saying about opinions... they are like A$$holes and everyone has one.

Didn't realize I needed stats. 

And PAclassic great chirp. Ouch! You get the yellow card 2nd-man in with no contribution. 2nd man in always gets the card.

I watch more  mid Atlantic soccer than anything else.  I don't see PA or PN calling out SC for his regional biases that are not statistically backed. 

[SKUD]

I watched and my point is a really great team would have separated themselves from Hopkins and the refs.

Excellent points Enmore.
[/quot

I watched and my point is a really great team would have separated themselves from Hopkins and the refs.

Excellent points Enmore.

OK, I'll bite.

Who in your estimation IS worthy? Or no outstanding teams this year?

F&M, Hopkins, UMW...all trash?

Is it a New England vs Mid-Atlantic (and maybe also Midwest) thing? Maybe just a little real analysis to augment your declarations would be helpful.

PN I will let you know when I see one.  I will say the Midwest and west are my blind spots.

Who looks great to you? 

[paclassic89]

That's fine.  You don't need stats.  It's not that serious.  I'm one of the biggest F&M haters on here so congrats on putting me in the position of defending them lol (I hate Amherst more)

[PaulNewman]

So.... crickets.

You obviously can and will do as you please.  I just wanted to clarify if you are taking random shots with a bullying vibe...or actually interested in discussion.

The assault on F&M was particularly absurd, kicked off by you completely botching Sierra's reference to Williams. F&M doesn't need its academic reputation boosted as it is a wonderful school...BUT the reference to Williams wasn't about relative academic rank but rather the number of ties F&M was accumulating in comparison to the Williams Final 4 season highlighted by 10-11 draws. You may have noticed that there a few higher profile squads this year already sporting records of 3-0-4, 3-0-5, etc.

[PaulNewman]

UMW...pretty clear imo rite now especially given recent gauntlet.

Also Tufts, Amherst, GAC, Colorado College, Conn College, UWEC, GAC, ONU, and maybe Cortland, Midd, Trinity, Chicago (2 of losses to D1s I think).

On fence regarding, JCU, Kenyon, JHU, Babson, St Olaf, F&M, Rowan, CNU, North Park and one or two from rest of Texas group and/or West Coast.

[SimpleCoach]

...SC for his regional biases that are not statistically backed. 

Statistics?  I was a history major.

SC.

[Kuiper]

So.... crickets.

You obviously can and will do as you please.  I just wanted to clarify if you are taking random shots with a bullying vibe...or actually interested in discussion.

The assault on F&M was particularly absurd, kicked off by you completely botching Sierra's reference to Williams. F&M doesn't need its academic reputation boosted as it is a wonderful school...BUT the reference to Williams wasn't about relative academic rank but rather the number of ties F&M was accumulating in comparison to the Williams Final 4 season highlighted by 10-11 draws. You may have noticed that there a few higher profile squads this year already sporting records of 3-0-4, 3-0-5, etc.

This takes the conversation in an entirely different direction (and maybe a less contentious one), and perhaps it should be on the National Perspectives thread or the NCAA Tournament Selection criteria thread, but I wonder if all of these ties in games between high quality teams is because of the NPI formula adopted for men's soccer. 

I ask because the committee explanation for setting "Quality Win Base Multiplier" at .750 suggests it may be better to tie a strong team than win against an average or below average team.  That was supposed to encourage scheduling strong opponents, but does it also encourage coaches to play for the tie rather than really go for it and play for the win in those close games?

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/soccer/d3/men/2023-24D3MSO_NPI.pdf

The committee increased and set the QWB multiplier to .750 in order to address ties within the soccer
formulas that are different than a majority of other sports. By increasing the multiplier to .750 it made
the value of quality ties equal to or more valuable than average/below average wins. This again
encourages teams to play quality schedules and earn wins and/or ties against good opponents in order
to earn a spot in the NCAA tournament.

[SierraFD3soccer]

This all really, really great. All stirring the pot and lobbing mortar rounds (missiles are more direct). Army guy and mortar rounds always made more sense since it is an indirect fire weapon.

Can definitely understand why and how people can hate F&M. However, I would not discount Coaches Wagner and Spangler effectiveness on the field as well as off. I mention Donnie Spangler, because he has a great impact on the team as Wagner. Spangler could have taken over many programs since he started in 2011  In my opinion as a parent whose seen kids (starters and some minute players) seen the results of their kids on campus and now later, I have to say that they have been incredibly effective and generally been great for men. This is also been going on for over 20 years at F&M.

While they may never have the success of Messiah, Amherst or Williams, they met and exceeded their mission of helping their squads to be better people.

Also they have had some success on field as well. 10 years in a row making the NCAA's. Yes they've been knocked out in the second round a lot (last two years in pks Cortland and Con Coll). All well treaded ground and a good reason to not particularly be fans of F&M. However, as a kid who wants to play, work and be part of a great group of men (to include alumni) and wants to play in the NCAAs (or just be relevant), F&M has a lot to offer. One of the reasons why my son transferred to F&M. Not because of the academics but that's a long, long story.

Heckling bench a knock on F&M, true for some which is why many do like F&M. Some might say that is how the team engages and gets everyone involved by never sitting while following the game the entire time. Coming from Maryland most lacrosse benches are exactly the same, so I am used to it. Some might notice that prior to each half the starters on the field gather around in circle before starting. Some may not see this, but the subs do the same on the sideline. Only observed this and don't know what is said in the subs meetings. That is something many would want ("I may be a sub, but I matter" if I was theorizing). Having been a sub in college, I can't remember anyone on the team concerned with me. So I would say that, from the outside, F&M has a different dynamic than maybe other teams.  FYI, the bench used to playfully heckle my son as well by yelling his last name over and over.

As to this season, F&M is definitely struggling with its 5th tie and may for the first time since 2013 not win 10 or more games. Several of the ties, F&M was dominating, but like a few years ago, just couldn't finish. Will have to win 7 out the last 8 games to reach 10 wins. 2021, they won six 1-0 games (2 were in OT and 2OT) and another 0-1 loss in OT. In 2022, it was similar - 5 1-0 wins, 3 2-1 wins and 2 0-0 ties. 

So Saturday's game against Swat at Swat will be a huge game for F&M. Last three meeting 1-0-2. Plus Swat has had the week off and are 7-0-1 and F&M had some injuries Wed night. Not excuses, but realities. I will say that F&M will fight to the end though.

[PaulNewman]

Kuiper, based on a small sample size, I haven't had the impression that teams are going for draws, at least not consciously. To take this latest big match as an example...I thought UMW was desperate to score again even with under a minute left. Hopkins seemed more satisfied to earn the draw but imho that was due to two factors...1) in general the team that equalized late is more likely on balance to be OK with a tie; 2) and the bigger factor imo was that JHU looked absolutely exhausted. May not have come across as I intended but I thought JHU was quite brave with the effort to get a draw. Showed a lot of pride and I'm sure given early expectations that Hopkins players have been feeling quite a bit of pressure.

I would also note that UMW looks like a very big team...maybe not Amherst-size, but close.  I don't trust smaller teams by comparison like JHU, Kenyon, etc to keep an Amherst or UMW or Tufts out of the back of the net for a full 90 given the offensive firepower and number of set pieces opponents of those teams must survive.

[Kuiper]

Kuiper, based on a small sample size, I haven't had the impression that teams are going for draws, at least not consciously. To take this latest big match as an example...I thought UMW was desperate to score again even with under a minute left. Hopkins seemed more satisfied to earn the draw but imho that was due to two factors...1) in general the team that equalized late is more likely on balance to be OK with a tie; 2) and the bigger factor imo was that JHU looked absolutely exhausted. May not have come across as I intended but I thought JHU was quite brave with the effort to get a draw. Showed a lot of pride and I'm sure given early expectations that Hopkins players have been feeling quite a bit of pressure.

I would also note that UMW looks like a very big team...maybe not Amherst-size, but close.  I don't trust smaller teams by comparison like JHU, Kenyon, etc to keep an Amherst or UMW or Tufts out of the back of the net for a full 90 given the offensive firepower and number of set pieces opponents of those teams must survive.

Thanks.  I'm not basing this necessarily on observations on the field (my sample size of watching these games is also small) and I don't even know if coaches have a sense of how the NPI rules will impact the rankings, but the rationale for the .750 setting implies that a tie against a good team might be closer to a win than a loss, which might tip the scale for a coach to guard against a loss more than go for the win.  That wouldn't show up in player effort, but rather in who is substituted on/off at the end and the team's formation.  Call it the "do you bring up the GK" question.

[SierraFD3soccer]

As to Williams, I was not comparing academics or NESCAC but the mere fact that it had 8 ties in the reg. season, one lose and 6 wins. So 6-1-8 by the end of the season and had an incredible run all the way till the end. 

[Hopkins92]

Heckling bench a knock on F&M, true for some which is why many do like F&M. Some might say that is how the team engages and gets everyone involved by never sitting while following the game the entire time. Coming from Maryland most lacrosse benches are exactly the same, so I am used to it. Some might notice that prior to each half the starters on the field gather around in circle before starting. Some may not see this, but the subs do the same on the sideline. Only observed this and don't know what is said in the subs meetings. That is something many would want ("I may be a sub, but I matter" if I was theorizing). Having been a sub in college, I can't remember anyone on the team concerned with me. So I would say that, from the outside, F&M has a different dynamic than maybe other teams.  FYI, the bench used to playfully heckle my son as well by yelling his last name over and over.

Kudos for being somewhat objective, because... yeah... this... It's just not a thing that you see much because it tends to raise the temperature of an often already-heated encounter, right out of the gate. It's mostly harmless, but even as a fan, it's just annoying to sit through.

And, just so you know, I'm not against heckling in the proper context. I played a lot of baseball and once it went to Legion and Summer League, the heckling was pretty constant and quite often pretty brutal. And hilarious.

But in the context of college soccer, heckling is just... weird. And off-putting to many.

The other thing that comes into this is F&M's style of play. I don't want to speak for SC, but many moons ago (at this point) there was a breakdown of the Dips style, and the high-press, route one and ugly-up the game fouling tactics came under pretty harsh criticism. I will say, I've softened on this angle quite a bit, because I've seen some very nice soccer from the Dips over the years. I don't know if they have shifted due to talent level increasing, or back in 2017 or 18 was more of an anomaly or what is going on there.

But, between the heckling and the style is where the "hate" originated, at least from my perspective and observations.

[Ejay]

...SC for his regional biases that are not statistically backed. 

Statistics?  I was a history major.

SC.

Hey, me too!!