Mid-Atlantic Region

[futballfan20]

What does the board think about Lycoming's game play?  High foul counts; 182 to date.  High yellow card count; 22.  They had 25 fouls and 2 yellow cards yesterday.  Vs Messiah who only has 69 fouls and 3 yellow cards.  Is that taught or just the type of player Lycoming recruits?

I feel like this post was lost in the excitement of the JHU-Messiah game.  I am confused as to what this post post is trying to accomplish. This isn't the first time Lycoming's Foul count has been brought up as I know it was mentioned last year and probably the year before. Lycoming plays a high pressure defensive game which depending on how the Ref calls the game can result in high fouls.  As for the comparison to Messiah...they play two competently different styles of soccer so the stats on everything are going to be different probably fouls being the biggest difference since possessing the ball for 65% of the game means it is hard to foul.  We are a week and a half away from the game and it is exciting to read the debates on the outcome of the game.  However the foul counts of the two teams tells you little more than possibly one team plays more physical than the other.    As another poster so elegantly posted "Lycoming wants a physical sloppy game"  and Messiah wants possession.  Yet they both sit at 11-1 and 2-0 in conference. 

[Falconer]

Dave B, Falconer, rudy, et al...

I appreciate the further explanation and I will readily state that I did not watch any of the game.

I was reading Falconer's account, which was an excellent description of what sounded like a taut, tense, highly competitive affair that could have gone either way.  Then the sentence about could of or should of ended 3-0 came in, and that seemed contrary to the rest of the tone of the whole post (speaking of tone).  So, now reading the replies, sounds like this was a game that could have gone either way, and that JHU might have equalized very late with heavy pressure (and that in the context of JHU possibly equalizing Messiah could have scored again).  My only point is that the overall description sounded nothing like a 3-0 game and to throw out that the final result very well could have been 3-0 seemed to distort the rest of the description. 

P.S. And if JHU had scored in the 35 or so minutes that they dominated the 2nd half (according to the account), what then?  And then after saying the end result very well couldhave been 3-0, it's confusing to read that JHU should stay ahead of Messiah in the polls?  Why would JHU stay ahead in the polls?  Anyway, sorry, but seemed like natural questions to wonder about just reading the post.

I understand why you questioned the sum total of my comments, PN. If you'd seen the game you would have probably agreed with my summary of the game, but I certainly could have said more and been less cryptic in my overall effect on someone who didn't see it.

Others have explained the puzzling points, except this part: yes, I think that Messiah and Hopkins are the two best teams I have seen this year. Emphasis on "I have seen." I have not seen Chicago or Calvin. I've seen streams involving Tufts and Amherst, but enough to think that neither of them is quite at the level of the Falcons or the Jays, but Tufts has proved that they can pull rabbits out of hats and win titles, so even if I'm right they can't be discounted come December. I watched maybe 10 minutes of a Chicago game and they were very impressive, but the opponent wasn't so it's hard to draw a conclusion. Calvin I saw last fall, and they lost relatively little (compared with Messiah, who lost the POY). Last fall I said they were the best team in D3, and I would not be quick to say something different this fall without seeing them.

In my book, the top four (in alphabet order) are Calvin, Chicago, Hopkins, and Messiah. The polls agree closely, if not exactly, with this opinion.

Lots of things could change my opinion, including especially major injuries to key players. For now, that's my Final Four.

[PaulNewman]

Dave B, Falconer, rudy, et al...

I appreciate the further explanation and I will readily state that I did not watch any of the game.

I was reading Falconer's account, which was an excellent description of what sounded like a taut, tense, highly competitive affair that could have gone either way.  Then the sentence about could of or should of ended 3-0 came in, and that seemed contrary to the rest of the tone of the whole post (speaking of tone).  So, now reading the replies, sounds like this was a game that could have gone either way, and that JHU might have equalized very late with heavy pressure (and that in the context of JHU possibly equalizing Messiah could have scored again).  My only point is that the overall description sounded nothing like a 3-0 game and to throw out that the final result very well could have been 3-0 seemed to distort the rest of the description. 

P.S. And if JHU had scored in the 35 or so minutes that they dominated the 2nd half (according to the account), what then?  And then after saying the end result very well couldhave been 3-0, it's confusing to read that JHU should stay ahead of Messiah in the polls?  Why would JHU stay ahead in the polls?  Anyway, sorry, but seemed like natural questions to wonder about just reading the post.

I understand why you questioned the sum total of my comments, PN. If you'd seen the game you would have probably agreed with my summary of the game, but I certainly could have said more and been less cryptic in my overall effect on someone who didn't see it.

Others have explained the puzzling points, except this part: yes, I think that Messiah and Hopkins are the two best teams I have seen this year. Emphasis on "I have seen." I have not seen Chicago or Calvin. I've seen streams involving Tufts and Amherst, but enough to think that neither of them is quite at the level of the Falcons or the Jays, but Tufts has proved that they can pull rabbits out of hats and win titles, so even if I'm right they can't be discounted come December. I watched maybe 10 minutes of a Chicago game and they were very impressive, but the opponent wasn't so it's hard to draw a conclusion. Calvin I saw last fall, and they lost relatively little (compared with Messiah, who lost the POY). Last fall I said they were the best team in D3, and I would not be quick to say something different this fall without seeing them.

In my book, the top four (in alphabet order) are Calvin, Chicago, Hopkins, and Messiah. The polls agree closely, if not exactly, with this opinion.

Lots of things could change my opinion, including especially major injuries to key players. For now, that's my Final Four.

Falconer, I agree with all of that.  I haven't seen Hopkins but I have no doubts about the other three.  I would pick Messiah over Calvin although that team (and coach) keep proving everyone wrong every year it seems.  I am going to stick to my guns on Tufts, and maybe in part because one is always wary of the last team that burned you (re: my team).  They are so big and have a lot of talent and they obviously have a coach with a magic touch come November.  They certainly would not going into any game with any doubt.  If Messiah was playing Tufts tomorrow I would consider it a toss up.  Tufts is perhaps not as good as the 2014 but that Messiah team I think some of you in Messiah Nation would agree might have been the best Messiah squad ever (and one of best D3 teams ever).

[Dog Face]

I only saw the 2nd half of the Messiah/JH game last night, but have read the comments here and understand it was a game of very different halves for whatever reason.  I'd agree that JH wasn't terribly dangerous in the final third, but for those of you who know the teams, do you really suppose it was Messiah's game plan to sit that deep in the 2nd half?  From what I saw, they weren't just giving JH half of the field, they weren't often giving them 2/3 before they put any pressure on the ball.  Maybe this was the period the reserves were playing, as the pressure was stepped up a bit as the half wore on (M had one guy somewhat harassing JH's two backs passing the ball laterally).  It just seems like an awfully risky strategy to cede much of the field to JH and bet on then not being able to generate anything in the final third (even by just lumping balls repeatedly into the box), and then plan on an unbelievable individual play to win the game for you (or maybe they were just playing for the tie, but after having the better of the play in the first half?).  JH cooperated, as they even wasted their opportunities on corners.

[rudy]

I only saw the 2nd half of the Messiah/JH game last night, but have read the comments here and understand it was a game of very different halves for whatever reason.  I'd agree that JH wasn't terribly dangerous in the final third, but for those of you who know the teams, do you really suppose it was Messiah's game plan to sit that deep in the 2nd half?  From what I saw, they weren't just giving JH half of the field, they weren't often giving them 2/3 before they put any pressure on the ball.  Maybe this was the period the reserves were playing, as the pressure was stepped up a bit as the half wore on (M had one guy somewhat harassing JH's two backs passing the ball laterally).  It just seems like an awfully risky strategy to cede much of the field to JH and bet on then not being able to generate anything in the final third (even by just lumping balls repeatedly into the box), and then plan on an unbelievable individual play to win the game for you (or maybe they were just playing for the tie, but after having the better of the play in the first half?).  JH cooperated, as they even wasted their opportunities on corners.

It had to be a deliberate decision to sit back in 2nd half.  I have never seen them play like that so not sure what prompted it.  If you had seen the first half you would have seen the usual style of play. 

[Mid-Atlantic Fan]

Mid-Atlantic Poll (Results updated thru 10/8)
1. Messiah---def Albright 5-0, def #2 Hopkins 1-0
2. Hopkins---def Stevenson 3-0, lost to #1 Messiah 1-0, tied Swarthmore 0-0
3. Lycoming---def #6 LVC 2-0, def Arcadia 2-0
4. Drew---def #8 Scranton 2-0, def Juniata 3-0
5. Gettysburg---def #9 Eastern 2-1 OT, def Muhlenberg 2-0
6. Lebanon Valley---lost to #3 Lyco 2-0, def Albright 3-1
7. Haverford---tied Rutgers Camden, def McDaniel 1-0
8. Scranton---lost to #4 Drew 2-0, lost to Susquehanna 1-0
9. Eastern---lost to #5 Gettysburg 2-1 OT, def Del Val 7-0
10. Dickinson---def Misericordia 5-0, def Washington College 3-2

[Mid-Atlantic Fan]

I think we will see some more shifting within the region after a week of up and down results.

1. Messiah (11-1-0)
2. Lycoming (12-1-0)
3. Hopkins (11-1-1)
4. Drew (12-0-1)
5. Gettysburg (9-2-0)
6. LVC (7-2-1)
T7. Fords (7-2-3)
T7. Dickinson (8-3-1)
9. Eastern (8-3-0)
10. Moravian (6-2-3)
------------------------------
Scranton (7-5-0)
DeSales (9-1-2)
Kings (8-3-1)

[rudy]

I think we will see some more shifting within the region after a week of up and down results.

1. Messiah (11-1-0)
2. Lycoming (12-1-0)
3. Hopkins (11-1-1)
4. Drew (12-0-1)
5. Gettysburg (9-2-0)
6. LVC (7-2-1)
T7. Fords (7-2-3)
T7. Dickinson (8-3-1)
9. Eastern (8-3-0)
10. Moravian (6-2-3)
------------------------------
Scranton (7-5-0)
DeSales (9-1-2)
Kings (8-3-1)

I'm thinking Hopkins tie with swarthmore  may move Drew ahead of them

[Shooter McGavin]

I think we will see some more shifting within the region after a week of up and down results.

1. Messiah (11-1-0)
2. Lycoming (12-1-0)
3. Hopkins (11-1-1)
4. Drew (12-0-1)
5. Gettysburg (9-2-0)
6. LVC (7-2-1)
T7. Fords (7-2-3)
T7. Dickinson (8-3-1)
9. Eastern (8-3-0)
10. Moravian (6-2-3)
------------------------------
Scranton (7-5-0)
DeSales (9-1-2)
Kings (8-3-1)

I'm thinking Hopkins tie with swarthmore  may move Drew ahead of them

I am going with this!

1. Messiah
2. Lyco
3. Drew
4. Hopkins
5. Getty
6. Dickinson
7. Fords
8. LVC
9. Eastern
10. Scranton
RV: Moravian, DeSales, Kings

[Domino1195]

What does the board think about Lycoming's game play?  High foul counts; 182 to date.  High yellow card count; 22.  They had 25 fouls and 2 yellow cards yesterday.  Vs Messiah who only has 69 fouls and 3 yellow cards.  Is that taught or just the type of player Lycoming recruits?

I feel like this post was lost in the excitement of the JHU-Messiah game.  I am confused as to what this post post is trying to accomplish. This isn't the first time Lycoming's Foul count has been brought up as I know it was mentioned last year and probably the year before. Lycoming plays a high pressure defensive game which depending on how the Ref calls the game can result in high fouls.  As for the comparison to Messiah...they play two competently different styles of soccer so the stats on everything are going to be different probably fouls being the biggest difference since possessing the ball for 65% of the game means it is hard to foul.  We are a week and a half away from the game and it is exciting to read the debates on the outcome of the game.  However the foul counts of the two teams tells you little more than possibly one team plays more physical than the other.    As another poster so elegantly posted "Lycoming wants a physical sloppy game"  and Messiah wants possession.  Yet they both sit at 11-1 and 2-0 in conference.

A player on OWU's first championship team told me recently that at half time the coaching staff would ask for the foul count - in games OWU trailed, they trailed in fouls committed. Coaching staff helped adjust the team's attitude for the second half.

Jerry Yeagley - in the 70's - would tell his IU players: In the first 5 minutes of the game I want you to knock your opponent on his ass. You'll know two things: what he's made of and what the referee will call.

Fouls are subjective - referees draw "the line" differently every time we/they do a game. I give teams the first 10 to 15 minutes to help me draw "the line" - for that game, on that day.

Fouls are (can be) indicative of going hard for a ball, making 50/50 battles 51/49. I posted in GL my weekly update on the top 12 GL teams -using Massey data -this week I added goals for/against, fouls and YC. Elite teams can play a tough SoS and commit fewer fouls. Good teams playing soft schedules don't have to foul much to have winning records: are they prepared for tougher match-ups? Good teams playing tough schedules will have more fouls - generally speaking - but will they beat Elite teams?

[sokermom]

I think we will see some more shifting within the region after a week of up and down results.

1. Messiah (11-1-0)
2. Lycoming (12-1-0)
3. Hopkins (11-1-1)
4. Drew (12-0-1)
5. Gettysburg (9-2-0)
6. LVC (7-2-1)
T7. Fords (7-2-3)
T7. Dickinson (8-3-1)
9. Eastern (8-3-0)
10. Moravian (6-2-3)
------------------------------
Scranton (7-5-0)
DeSales (9-1-2)
Kings (8-3-1)

Not sure why Scranton is in the mix.  They are 1-3 in conference play. 

[Mid-Atlantic Fan]

I think we will see some more shifting within the region after a week of up and down results.

1. Messiah (11-1-0)
2. Lycoming (12-1-0)
3. Hopkins (11-1-1)
4. Drew (12-0-1)
5. Gettysburg (9-2-0)
6. LVC (7-2-1)
T7. Fords (7-2-3)
T7. Dickinson (8-3-1)
9. Eastern (8-3-0)
10. Moravian (6-2-3)
------------------------------
Scranton (7-5-0)
DeSales (9-1-2)
Kings (8-3-1)

Not sure why Scranton is in the mix.  They are 1-3 in conference play.

Conference play doesn't reflect any outcome in terms of regional rankings. Overall record, win %, SOS, RvR, head to head, etc all factor into regional rankings which will be released next week. The current regional polls are opinions not necessarily based on all of those factors. I listed Scranton because they have played 5 ranked teams, beating 1 of them losing to 3 and the other to be played tonight. For comparison purposes, King's has played 1 ranked opponent in Scranton, which they lost. So a team with 4 blemishes like Kings vs a team with 5 blemishes and the head to head win like Scranton makes me want to put them ahead of Kings plus Scranton will have a much higher SOS, more ranked wins and more ranked opponents.

The same goes for DeSales. They have played 2 ranked opponents and are 0-1-1 vs them. Scranton is 1-3-0 vs the ranked opponents they have faced. Scranton will have a much higher SOS, more ranked opponents, more ranked wins etc. The 1-3 conference record means practically nothing in the sense of who should be slotted where. If it really boils down to something like that then it has to be such a tight decision but normally the above factors can eliminate ever getting to conference records.

[sokermom]

I think we will see some more shifting within the region after a week of up and down results.

1. Messiah (11-1-0)
2. Lycoming (12-1-0)
3. Hopkins (11-1-1)
4. Drew (12-0-1)
5. Gettysburg (9-2-0)
6. LVC (7-2-1)
T7. Fords (7-2-3)
T7. Dickinson (8-3-1)
9. Eastern (8-3-0)
10. Moravian (6-2-3)
------------------------------
Scranton (7-5-0)
DeSales (9-1-2)
Kings (8-3-1)

Not sure why Scranton is in the mix.  They are 1-3 in conference play.

Conference play doesn't reflect any outcome in terms of regional rankings. Overall record, win %, SOS, RvR, head to head, etc all factor into regional rankings which will be released next week. The current regional polls are opinions not necessarily based on all of those factors. I listed Scranton because they have played 5 ranked teams, beating 1 of them losing to 3 and the other to be played tonight. For comparison purposes, King's has played 1 ranked opponent in Scranton, which they lost. So a team with 4 blemishes like Kings vs a team with 5 blemishes and the head to head win like Scranton makes me want to put them ahead of Kings plus Scranton will have a much higher SOS, more ranked wins and more ranked opponents.

The same goes for DeSales. They have played 2 ranked opponents and are 0-1-1 vs them. Scranton is 1-3-0 vs the ranked opponents they have faced. Scranton will have a much higher SOS, more ranked opponents, more ranked wins etc. The 1-3 conference record means practically nothing in the sense of who should be slotted where. If it really boils down to something like that then it has to be such a tight decision but normally the above factors can eliminate ever getting to conference records.

Got it.  Thanks.

[NEPAFAN]

welp scranton got smoked 6-0. Time for me to start focusing on Basketball season.

[Mid-Atlantic Fan]

welp scranton got smoked 6-0. Time for me to start focusing on Basketball season.

Yes AQ or bust. If they can win out they might sneak into the final regional rankings but not looking like it at this point. Conference playoffs is even a stretch at this point as sokermom pointed out.