Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships

[Ron Boerger]

The new-new city manager wants to have it again, apparently. But it also seems like that position turns over pretty frequently.

No kidding.  By the time the next open year comes up they'll probably have gone through two more. 

[wally_wabash]

So can we stick a fork in Shenandoah as a venue for the Stagg? Sure it's decent when UMHB plays, but it's really hard to claim any kind of community support for the event after this year. I understand the weather wasn't great, but 1362 officially is.... putrid. All the complaints about Salem, but even in the worst weather, people cared and showed up. You have to go back to the mid 80s and Phenix City AL to get official attendance as pathetic as this year. Which kind of proves the point. Areas with limited to no connection to DIII make poor options for these games.

Looking forward to Canton next year. Close to the heart of DIII country. While I have nothing against UMU, I do hope they don't make it at least one of the next two years so we can get a bead on community support for the Stagg in that area. I think the NCAA underestimated how much Salem put into those games year after year, but I expect Canton will do better than Texas.

I won't pretend to know much about how championship sites are bid for and awarded, but I'll share my final Shenandoah thoughts here. 

I think Shenandoah did a passable job given that in the late summer/early fall of 2018 there were still council conversations happening about whether or not they would even host the event.  So, going from no event to completing the event without significant issues is a win.  But the bar should never, ever be that low for a national championship event. 

I'll get to attendance in a minute, but just a quick recap on some of the major advantages that we were sold leading into Stagg Bowls in Texas:

- The weather is going to be great!  The weather was decidedly not great in either year.  I'm sure that the weather in The Woodlands for the next five years on Stagg Bowl Friday will be 72 and perfect, but that didn't happen in '18-'19 and is obviously not something that you can guarantee.

- Having the game in a major metro area makes it easier for people to travel to the game.   I'm not sure this panned out the way it was advertised either.  Yes, there are two major airports "in the area" and there are a lot of flights that get there, but the cost wasn't awesome.  This year in particular with the game pushed back all the way to Christmas weekend, flights were already booked and what was available was very expensive.  Y'all, I had to fly out Saturday morning on Spirit.  Spirit.  There were first hand accounts on this site from NCC fans that either couldn't make it happen or had to really grind to get down there.  It wasn't as easy as it was made out to be.  Also, Shenandoah is not exactly airport adjacent.  Whether you went into IAH (30 or so minutes away) or Hobby (about an hour away), you still had to get a car to get up to Shenandoah.

- The people of Texas love football- any football- and they will come out and support this event. Attendance in 2018 I think really masked this fallacy more than anybody would have thought.  In both years I didn't get the sense that the greater Shenandoah community had any idea that this event was even happening.  10 miles south toward Houston and I don't think any casual football fan would have even known the event existed, let alone that it was happening in their backyard.  And so, when one of the participants isn't within driving distance, you wind up with absolutely nobody except the diehards from the participating teams in the stadium.  And that was a major bummer.  But I think it ends once and for all the debate about whether or not your average Texas football fan is going to carve out three hours to watch this game, particularly on a night when HS state finals are happening.  They aren't and they won't. 

So I think the three main pillars of what made this site hypothetically great all fell way, way short of expectation.  In addition to those main things, I don't think Shenandoah embraced the entirety of the event.  Broc Rutter should have received his Gagliardi Trophy at a  formal ceremony during the week and not in an ESPN media prep meeting.  There needed to be more stuff for the players to experience while there.  Line up a tour at Johnson Space Center.  Workout at NRG.  Something more than a couple of hours at knockoff Dave & Busters.  Dan Dutcher really emphasized the student-athlete experience in our pregame interview, and I just don't think Shenandoah really committed to that part of the deal.  What we really got the last two years was like the stripped down freemium version of Stagg Bowl.  Doing the event properly requires a subscription. 

If Shenandoah intends to bid again (who knows what will happen as that leadership changes too often for any long term messaging to be something you can count on), any bid there has to answer the question: How are you going to sell 4,000 tickets to this event in your community?  I don't know that there is a plan for that- like I said, I didn't get any sense that the community around The Woodlands had any clue this was even going on.  Lowest Stagg Bowl attendance ever is a shaky foundation from which to launch another request to host the event.  I would be very, very surprised if this event goes back there, anytime soon.  Or ever really.  I think if you're going to host this event out in the D3 wilderness, you have to knock it out of the park.  I think Shenandoah did fine, but I don't think they left the kind of impact on this event that makes people really want to go back there. 

[Toby Taff]

particularly on a night when HS state finals are happening.  They aren't and they won't.

This is a big part of it. Texans love their football, emphasis on their. The state finals are the same weekend every year and televised on Fox Sports. It is an event that people get together to watch. I know folks who make state tournaments in FB and basketball their reunion time each year. Attendance at this years 6A Division I title game was 47818, Division II was 35278. The Division I game was better attended than almost 70% of bowl games. Unless there are serious advertising dollars spent to draw folks in, having the Stagg on a Championship game night in Texas is not going to be well attended.

*update* Looking at the numbers, The last game on the 19th (3A div 2) drew 15,200. The first game on the 20th (4A div 1) 16k+. The lowest attendance was a 6-man game and it was 1400+. That weekend is death to any non-UIL football event because so many coaches and fans make it a destination weekend.

[Etchglow]

So can we stick a fork in Shenandoah as a venue for the Stagg? Sure it's decent when UMHB plays, but it's really hard to claim any kind of community support for the event after this year. I understand the weather wasn't great, but 1362 officially is.... putrid. All the complaints about Salem, but even in the worst weather, people cared and showed up. You have to go back to the mid 80s and Phenix City AL to get official attendance as pathetic as this year. Which kind of proves the point. Areas with limited to no connection to DIII make poor options for these games.

Looking forward to Canton next year. Close to the heart of DIII country. While I have nothing against UMU, I do hope they don't make it at least one of the next two years so we can get a bead on community support for the Stagg in that area. I think the NCAA underestimated how much Salem put into those games year after year, but I expect Canton will do better than Texas.

I won't pretend to know much about how championship sites are bid for and awarded, but I'll share my final Shenandoah thoughts here. 

I think Shenandoah did a passable job given that in the late summer/early fall of 2018 there were still council conversations happening about whether or not they would even host the event.  So, going from no event to completing the event without significant issues is a win.  But the bar should never, ever be that low for a national championship event. 

I'll get to attendance in a minute, but just a quick recap on some of the major advantages that we were sold leading into Stagg Bowls in Texas:

- The weather is going to be great!  The weather was decidedly not great in either year.  I'm sure that the weather in The Woodlands for the next five years on Stagg Bowl Friday will be 72 and perfect, but that didn't happen in '18-'19 and is obviously not something that you can guarantee.

- Having the game in a major metro area makes it easier for people to travel to the game.   I'm not sure this panned out the way it was advertised either.  Yes, there are two major airports "in the area" and there are a lot of flights that get there, but the cost wasn't awesome.  This year in particular with the game pushed back all the way to Christmas weekend, flights were already booked and what was available was very expensive.  Y'all, I had to fly out Saturday morning on Spirit.  Spirit.  There were first hand accounts on this site from NCC fans that either couldn't make it happen or had to really grind to get down there.  It wasn't as easy as it was made out to be.  Also, Shenandoah is not exactly airport adjacent.  Whether you went into IAH (30 or so minutes away) or Hobby (about an hour away), you still had to get a car to get up to Shenandoah.

- The people of Texas love football- any football- and they will come out and support this event. Attendance in 2018 I think really masked this fallacy more than anybody would have thought.  In both years I didn't get the sense that the greater Shenandoah community had any idea that this event was even happening.  10 miles south toward Houston and I don't think any casual football fan would have even known the event existed, let alone that it was happening in their backyard.  And so, when one of the participants isn't within driving distance, you wind up with absolutely nobody except the diehards from the participating teams in the stadium.  And that was a major bummer.  But I think it ends once and for all the debate about whether or not your average Texas football fan is going to carve out three hours to watch this game, particularly on a night when HS state finals are happening.  They aren't and they won't. 

So I think the three main pillars of what made this site hypothetically great all fell way, way short of expectation.  In addition to those main things, I don't think Shenandoah embraced the entirety of the event.  Broc Rutter should have received his Gagliardi Trophy at a  formal ceremony during the week and not in an ESPN media prep meeting.  There needed to be more stuff for the players to experience while there.  Line up a tour at Johnson Space Center.  Workout at NRG.  Something more than a couple of hours at knockoff Dave & Busters.  Dan Dutcher really emphasized the student-athlete experience in our pregame interview, and I just don't think Shenandoah really committed to that part of the deal.  What we really got the last two years was like the stripped down freemium version of Stagg Bowl.  Doing the event properly requires a subscription. 

If Shenandoah intends to bid again (who knows what will happen as that leadership changes too often for any long term messaging to be something you can count on), any bid there has to answer the question: How are you going to sell 4,000 tickets to this event in your community?  I don't know that there is a plan for that- like I said, I didn't get any sense that the community around The Woodlands had any clue this was even going on.  Lowest Stagg Bowl attendance ever is a shaky foundation from which to launch another request to host the event.  I would be very, very surprised if this event goes back there, anytime soon.  Or ever really.  I think if you're going to host this event out in the D3 wilderness, you have to knock it out of the park.  I think Shenandoah did fine, but I don't think they left the kind of impact on this event that makes people really want to go back there.

I mean, while the weather wasn't great, it also was abetter than the 33 degrees of 2017, 26 degrees of 2016, and 35 degrees of 2015...

particularly on a night when HS state finals are happening.  They aren't and they won't.

This is a big part of it. Texans love their football, emphasis on their. The state finals are the same weekend every year and televised on Fox Sports. It is an event that people get together to watch. I know folks who make state tournaments in FB and basketball their reunion time each year. Attendance at this years 6A Division I title game was 47818, Division II was 35278. The Division I game was better attended than almost 70% of bowl games. Unless there are serious advertising dollars spent to draw folks in, having the Stagg on a Championship game night in Texas is not going to be well attended.

*update* Looking at the numbers, The last game on the 19th (3A div 2) drew 15,200. The first game on the 20th (4A div 1) 16k+. The lowest attendance was a 6-man game and it was 1400+. That weekend is death to any non-UIL football event because so many coaches and fans make it a destination weekend.

When your choice is to go to Jerry World to watch state championships, watch football from the comfort of home, or go to Woodforest Bank Stadium in Shenandoah, it is pretty hard to advocate for the latter unless you're a die hard D3 fan...

[crufootball]

- Having the game in a major metro area makes it easier for people to travel to the game.   I'm not sure this panned out the way it was advertised either.  Yes, there are two major airports "in the area" and there are a lot of flights that get there, but the cost wasn't awesome.  This year in particular with the game pushed back all the way to Christmas weekend, flights were already booked and what was available was very expensive.  Y'all, I had to fly out Saturday morning on Spirit.  Spirit.  There were first hand accounts on this site from NCC fans that either couldn't make it happen or had to really grind to get down there.  It wasn't as easy as it was made out to be.  Also, Shenandoah is not exactly airport adjacent.  Whether you went into IAH (30 or so minutes away) or Hobby (about an hour away), you still had to get a car to get up to Shenandoah.

Are the cost of airline tickets with 6 days notice ever going to be awesome? I can assure you that there were more than a few UMHB folks that didn't love the cost of getting to Salem and won't like it any better if we are lucky enough to get to Canton.

[Ron Boerger]

Flight costs are going to bad no matter where the game is held, so the question is how much of D3 world is within some sort of driving distance of proposed sites.   If you put it in a location where 98% of teams/fans would have to fly (e.g. Texas, sad to say), vs. one where "only" 60-70% of teams/fans have to fly, that's a point in favor of the second site.   

[crufootball]

Flight costs are going to bad no matter where the game is held, so the question is how much of D3 world is within some sort of driving distance of proposed sites.   If you put it in a location where 98% of teams/fans would have to fly (e.g. Texas, sad to say), vs. one where "only" 60-70% of teams/fans have to fly, that's a point in favor of the second site.

Very true but that really wasn't what Greg's critique seemed to be about, there was never a question that Shenandoah was far away from the rest of D3. However it seems unfair to blame them that flights the weekend before Christmas were a tad high to the two airports in the area.

If you want to blast Shenandoah for not truly embracing the event in the way that Salem did, be my guest, as part of the D3football.com crew Wally obviously would have a better feel for that than I would. However to say that the weather wasn't nice enough and the two airports weren't close enough seems to be a reach.

[wally_wabash]

Flight costs are going to bad no matter where the game is held, so the question is how much of D3 world is within some sort of driving distance of proposed sites.   If you put it in a location where 98% of teams/fans would have to fly (e.g. Texas, sad to say), vs. one where "only" 60-70% of teams/fans have to fly, that's a point in favor of the second site.

Very true but that really wasn't what Greg's critique seemed to be about, there was never a question that Shenandoah was far away from the rest of D3. However it seems unfair to blame them that flights the weekend before Christmas were a tad high to the two airports in the area.

Valid.  Definitely not the organizers' fault that travel costs at that time were high.  I do think that the dialogue around the convenience of putting the game near-ish a major metro area was overplayed, however.  Maybe not for everybody, and maybe it's my fault for not thinking through it all the way and taking that dialogue at face value, but in the end I don't think attending the game in Shenandoah was "easier" in the way that I think it was talked about being. 

If you want to blast Shenandoah for not truly embracing the event in the way that Salem did, be my guest, as part of the D3football.com crew Wally obviously would have a better feel for that than I would. However to say that the weather wasn't nice enough and the two airports weren't close enough seems to be a reach.

I think the weather is a fair game when considering any future bids from Shenandoah.  Better weather than what Salem generally delivers was a significant pillar here.  We joked, repeatedly, on the field pregame in 2018 that it felt almost exactly like our pregame the previous year in Salem.  Maybe not quite as bitterly cold as it was in Salem, but it was cold and it was windy, and after 3+ hours of pregame setup, production, and teardown on the field, I couldn't feel my face.  Functionally, there was really no difference.  This year we caught a break that the rain trailed off before kickoff, but it still wasn't a pleasant gameday atmosphere for anybody who tried to pregame tailgate.  So, no, it isn't fair to blame Shenandoah for the weather, but the slam dunk great weather for the championship game idea has been proven to be a myth and they really can't steer into that with any future bids. 

But really, by far, the larger issue with this event ever going back to Shenandoah is the attendance problem.  How does that get solved?  Particularly if literally everybody in the area would rather watch the HS playoffs?  I don't think there's a good answer to that and, for me at least, that has to be a dealbreaker.  We just can't have 1400 people at the national championship.  It's a bad look for everybody involved. 

[crufootball]

Flight costs are going to bad no matter where the game is held, so the question is how much of D3 world is within some sort of driving distance of proposed sites.   If you put it in a location where 98% of teams/fans would have to fly (e.g. Texas, sad to say), vs. one where "only" 60-70% of teams/fans have to fly, that's a point in favor of the second site.

Very true but that really wasn't what Greg's critique seemed to be about, there was never a question that Shenandoah was far away from the rest of D3. However it seems unfair to blame them that flights the weekend before Christmas were a tad high to the two airports in the area.

Valid.  Definitely not the organizers' fault that travel costs at that time were high.  I do think that the dialogue around the convenience of putting the game near-ish a major metro area was overplayed, however.  Maybe not for everybody, and maybe it's my fault for not thinking through it all the way and taking that dialogue at face value, but in the end I don't think attending the game in Shenandoah was "easier" in the way that I think it was talked about being. 

If you want to blast Shenandoah for not truly embracing the event in the way that Salem did, be my guest, as part of the D3football.com crew Wally obviously would have a better feel for that than I would. However to say that the weather wasn't nice enough and the two airports weren't close enough seems to be a reach.

I think the weather is a fair game when considering any future bids from Shenandoah.  Better weather than what Salem generally delivers was a significant pillar here.  We joked, repeatedly, on the field pregame in 2018 that it felt almost exactly like our pregame the previous year in Salem.  Maybe not quite as bitterly cold as it was in Salem, but it was cold and it was windy, and after 3+ hours of pregame setup, production, and teardown on the field, I couldn't feel my face.  Functionally, there was really no difference.  This year we caught a break that the rain trailed off before kickoff, but it still wasn't a pleasant gameday atmosphere for anybody who tried to pregame tailgate.  So, no, it isn't fair to blame Shenandoah for the weather, but the slam dunk great weather for the championship game idea has been proven to be a myth and they really can't steer into that with any future bids. 

But really, by far, the larger issue with this event ever going back to Shenandoah is the attendance problem.  How does that get solved?  Particularly if literally everybody in the area would rather watch the HS playoffs?  I don't think there's a good answer to that and, for me at least, that has to be a dealbreaker.  We just can't have 1400 people at the national championship.  It's a bad look for everybody involved.

I could argue some of your points about the travel and weather but it doesn't matter because ultimately I agree with your larger issue. Attendance was always going to be a HUGE issue if UMHB, or some other Texas based team, didn't advance to the Stagg Bowl. I absolutely agree that 1400 people is not good enough and I am not sure there is enough marketing anybody could do to guarantee 4000 people without a Texan team.

However to me that begs the question, what is an acceptable attendance for Canton? I have no doubt that Mount Union would bring a ton if they are involved, however what if they aren't? The average attendance in Salem was a respectable 5,100. That number is not huge but according to google means on average it was 72% full. Tom Benson HOF stadium is another animal though (capacity of 23,000), as 5,100 would only fill 22% of the crowd, the biggest crowd ever in Salem would have filled 35%. Mind you the 1,400 in Texas was 15% which we agreed wasn't a good look.

So do the folks of Canton need to engineer a crowd of 10,000 or more without Mount Union for it to be good? Canton should be able to provide an amazing experience to the student athlete prior to game by letting them go to the HOF, maybe even arrange a meeting with a HOF member, but if the game looks like some of the D1 bowl games in large stadiums with seemingly few in the stands do we have the same bad look?

[Pat Coleman]

One of the things about Canton is that some of those end zone seats that they have for the Hall of Fame game are temporary, brought in just for the game. They also have a number of different seating areas and I'm sure they won't put 23,000 seats on sale, no matter who is playing.

My thinking is that 8,000 in attendance should be the baseline expectation if Mount Union is playing.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

In case anyone was curious, the bidding cycle has come to a close ... even though we are only "halfway" through the current bid allocations. From what I understand, national committees will make their decisions on the next four years of bids (2022-21 through 2025-26 academic years) next October, or so.

I do not have any information I can share as to who bid for what.

[crufootball]

In case anyone was curious, the bidding cycle has come to a close ... even though we are only "halfway" through the current bid allocations. From what I understand, national committees will make their decisions on the next four years of bids (2022-21 through 2025-26 academic years) next October, or so.

I do not have any information I can share as to who bid for what.

Next October as in 8 months from now or October 2021?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Next October ... similar timing to last cycle, until the North Carolina "bathroom bill" caused a delay until the following March or April.

So we will know the next four years of championship sites shortly early in the third year of the current cycle.

[crufootball]

Next October ... similar timing to last cycle, until the North Carolina "bathroom bill" caused a delay until the following March or April.

So we will know the next four years of championship sites shortly early in the third year of the current cycle.

Makes sense in that way but interesting that Canton could win another bid before their first bid is every used.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Possibly on Canton ... but this cycle is what has been developed in the last few go-arounds ... and for football it hasn't been split up like this.

We shall see. Long way to go to get to October at this point.