Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships

[jknezek]

Canton is a terrible site.  Yeah, I know how big a deal playing at the NFL HOF is.  I get that.  Wesley played there for a game and it is pretty cool.  However, when is a cold weather site within a stone's throw of Mount Union ever a good idea?  An NCAA final should ALWAYS be in a weather neutral site, not one that favors cold weather teams.  This is like having the Superbowl at Soldier Field. 

-Ski

They did the Superbowl at MetLife Stadium outside in NJ a couple years ago. It's doable. Look, other than the proximity to UMU, I think it's a great venue for the Stagg. I hate Shenandoah. This was a stupid money grab that the idiot town didn't read the contract or understand anything and the NCAA is picking up the slack for their lack of reading comprehension.

It's a stupid idea that quite clearly the town is lukewarm at best about taking on, the NCAA doesn't want to back away from due to pride, and we are probably just going to have to put up with it.

Canton is a great destination. Having the HOF, playing on a field the pros play on (yes an exhibition, but still). It's going to be incredible in the heart of a DIII hot spot. I might even be tempted to drive up since I haven't been to Canton. Yes the proximity to UMU is annoying, yes the weather could get squirrely, but Bridgewater played in Salem and we've had a few inclement weather Staggs over the years there.

I wish they would trade off between Salem and Canton, depending on how it goes, but the NCAA seems to have some other idea about a Grand Tour. Sounds stupid to me, but so do a lot of things the NCAA does.

[jamtod]

Canton is a terrible site.  Yeah, I know how big a deal playing at the NFL HOF is.  I get that.  Wesley played there for a game and it is pretty cool.  However, when is a cold weather site within a stone's throw of Mount Union ever a good idea?  An NCAA final should ALWAYS be in a weather neutral site, not one that favors cold weather teams.  This is like having the Superbowl at Soldier Field. 

-Ski

Define "weather neutral."
Aside from in a stadium, there is no weather neutral and football is not a weather neutral sport, especially at the D3 level.

[skunks_sidekick]

Canton is a terrible site.  Yeah, I know how big a deal playing at the NFL HOF is.  I get that.  Wesley played there for a game and it is pretty cool.  However, when is a cold weather site within a stone's throw of Mount Union ever a good idea?  An NCAA final should ALWAYS be in a weather neutral site, not one that favors cold weather teams.  This is like having the Superbowl at Soldier Field. 

-Ski

Weather forecast this Friday...
Salem...42 degrees & partly cloudy
Canton...30 degrees & partly cloudy

I have reviewed & compared the weather between the two cities for the last umpteen years to compare.  The comparisons were always similar to above, with more  times than not when Salem got inclement weather, it was actually better in Canton, OH.  Mind you, if Canton gets a blizzard on Stagg Bowl weekend the first year they have it, there will be more than a bit of growling from everyone.

[merlecanlas]

Canton is a terrible site.  Yeah, I know how big a deal playing at the NFL HOF is.  I get that.  Wesley played there for a game and it is pretty cool.  However, when is a cold weather site within a stone's throw of Mount Union ever a good idea?  An NCAA final should ALWAYS be in a weather neutral site, not one that favors cold weather teams.  This is like having the Superbowl at Soldier Field. 

-Ski

Weather forecast this Friday...
Salem...42 degrees & partly cloudy
Canton...30 degrees & partly cloudy

I have reviewed & compared the weather between the two cities for the last umpteen years to compare.  The comparisons were always similar to above, with more  times than not when Salem got inclement weather, it was actually better in Canton, OH.  Mind you, if Canton gets a blizzard on Stagg Bowl weekend the first year they have it, there will be more than a bit of growling from everyone.

David Baker won't let it snow the first year in Canton

[Teamski]

Canton is a terrible site.  Yeah, I know how big a deal playing at the NFL HOF is.  I get that.  Wesley played there for a game and it is pretty cool.  However, when is a cold weather site within a stone's throw of Mount Union ever a good idea?  An NCAA final should ALWAYS be in a weather neutral site, not one that favors cold weather teams.  This is like having the Superbowl at Soldier Field. 

-Ski

Define "weather neutral."
Aside from in a stadium, there is no weather neutral and football is not a weather neutral sport, especially at the D3 level.

I think Texas is a hell of a lot better than Canton...that is at least somewhat weather neutral.

A 30 degree final game with the risk for lake effect snow?  Really?  So how is that fair to a team like UMHB coming up from Texas to play UMU at what is  basically a home game for the Raiders?  Distance to UMU aside, there are a lot of teams in DIII that are not good cold weather teams, and a final at Canton decisively favors northern teams that practice in the cold with possible snow. 

There are tons of options when trying to find a venue for the Stagg Bowl, especially in states that are further south and less likely to give material advantages to northern teams.  Nashville would be a great site that is more centrally located.  Vanderbilt's Stadium, if they offered it, would be perfect.  Let's see.... Memphis?  Liberty Bowl.  Big, but I bet you will get more people attending these games with the centralized location.  Temperature this Saturday in Memphis?  56 degrees and sunny. 

This obviously was not thought out or the NCAA was offered a deal by the HOF bowl they couldn't refuse in order for the stadium to be utilized.

-Ski

[wally_wabash]

Canton is a terrible site.  Yeah, I know how big a deal playing at the NFL HOF is.  I get that.  Wesley played there for a game and it is pretty cool.  However, when is a cold weather site within a stone's throw of Mount Union ever a good idea?  An NCAA final should ALWAYS be in a weather neutral site, not one that favors cold weather teams.  This is like having the Superbowl at Soldier Field. 

-Ski

Define "weather neutral."
Aside from in a stadium, there is no weather neutral and football is not a weather neutral sport, especially at the D3 level.

I think Texas is a hell of a lot better than Canton...that is at least somewhat weather neutral.

A 30 degree final game with the risk for lake effect snow?  Really?  So how is that fair to a team like UMHB coming up from Texas to play UMU at what is  basically a home game for the Raiders?  Distance to UMU aside, there are a lot of teams in DIII that are not good cold weather teams, and a final at Canton decisively favors northern teams that practice in the cold with possible snow. 

Nobody routinely, or ever, practices in lake effect blizzards.  That kind of condition favors nobody.  This is a bad take. 

There are tons of options when trying to find a venue for the Stagg Bowl, especially in states that are further south and less likely to give material advantages to northern teams.  Nashville would be a great site that is more centrally located.  Vanderbilt's Stadium, if they offered it, would be perfect.  Let's see.... Memphis?  Liberty Bowl.  Big, but I bet you will get more people attending these games with the centralized location.  Temperature this Saturday in Memphis?  56 degrees and sunny.

You significantly overestimate the amount of casual interest in the D3 championship game.  I don't think the game in Shenandoah will be well attended unless UMHB is playing in it.  If you dropped  this game into Memphis, who is going to go?  Playing this game in a 50,000 seat stadium is lunacy.  And you have to have cities and sites willing to host the event- not just the game, but a bunch of other Stagg Bowl week stuff that goes along with the game.  You say "put it in Memphis" like the NCAA has a standing open invitation anywhere in the continental 48 to play this game.  It doesn't work like that. 

And FWIW, I don't necessarily think the game is Canton is going to be all that great either.  If Mount Union doesn't make it to the final game, attendance to that game will not be great either.  D3 is super, super niche. 

[jknezek]

The Stagg was held throughout the 70s in Phenix City Alabama and again in the mid to late 80s before switching to Forida for 3 years. Attendance has always been hit or miss depending on the schools involved. It's a fairly obvious pattern. Larger state schools playing in their first or second Stagg drew high attendance. Smaller liberal arts schools and schools that make the Stagg year after year draw lower attendance. The highest attendance listed is 9000, for a game in Phenix City between West Georgia, which was literally 90 miles away from the stadium, and Augustana in first appearances for both schools. Dayton and Ithaca, also in Phenix City, came close at 8700 in maiden appearences for both. Every other appearance for these schools, but especially Augustana, drew next to nothing.

Salem's mostly best attended games came in the first 2 years, which coincided with UMU, Rowan, Albion, and W&J making first appearances. Other than that, the Bridgewater/UMU game drew the largest crowd, just a hair under 8000. Bridgewater's first appearance and again, a school 90 minutes down the road. Mostly, though, the Stagg draws poorly when schools come over and over, especially schools from farther away. Those UWW/UMU games dipped down into the low 3K, a number matched last year by two teams both coming from distant areas and by the poorly attended Linfield/UMHB game.

I have no idea what the NCAA hopes to show with Shenandoah. If UMHB doesn't make that game, and you get a combination of UMU and UWW or UWO or any 2 schools that need to fly, attendance will likely be a true dud.

[wally_wabash]

I have no idea what the NCAA hopes to show with Shenandoah. If UMHB doesn't make that game, and you get a combination of UMU and UWW or UWO or any 2 schools that need to fly, attendance will likely be a true dud.

But you might not have to wear a jacket and that's the important thing.   

[Ralph Turner]

Teamski

Just curious, what's a weather neutral site? Not too hot, not too cold? Where?

Weather neutral...

Mature turf field

Dry

Wind velocity less than 10 MPH.

Temperature range 50 to 65 degrees.

[Ralph Turner]

I thought that there were several passes in the UWO-UMU game that were dropped because the players' hands were too cold.

[Teamski]

I have no idea what the NCAA hopes to show with Shenandoah. If UMHB doesn't make that game, and you get a combination of UMU and UWW or UWO or any 2 schools that need to fly, attendance will likely be a true dud.

Both locations suck.  At least Texas has more neutral weather.  The same head scratching happened when the FCS chose Frisco Texas for their championship game.  I still think a location like Memphis is a better bet.  Using your logic of attendance, Salem should have poor attendance because a Virginia team didn't make to the Championship.  That doesn't compute.  A central location like Memphis makes travel time for all teams and fans lower overall; far better than Salem!

I am sure that Memphis or Nashville would be happy to host an NCAA championship of any division.  It still is a (very small) feather in the cap for the cities.  Add the tourist potential for fans traveling to either there or Nashville.  It really is a win-win for fans, the NCAA and the host.  Yes, I make a lot of assumptions, but I find it very hard to believe that Canton and somewhere down in Texas were the only options......

-Ski

[Teamski]

Nobody routinely, or ever, practices in lake effect blizzards.  That kind of condition favors nobody.  This is a bad take. 

Lake effect snow would cancel the game of course (another good reason why the location is less than ideal).  Seasonal snow and cold is another story, and that DOES play into the cold weather team's hands.  Example:  Wesley at UWW 2005.  Snow hits the field that week.  Wesley shows up (which is not a good cold weather team to begin with) and finds out that the cleats they brought were too short.  Too late.  The subsequent slip-laden game results in a 58-6 loss.  UWW practiced on that turf and were ready for the conditions.  Not saying that Wesley would have won the game, but they were better than that.

This was a seeded game.  If this was a championship, how would that show who was the better team?

-Ski

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

Main Issue:

A Location/City/Etc. has to APPLY to host the Championship.  The NCAA just doesn't Assign the game to a random location.

IMO, the NCAA made a mistake in wanting to "Move the Championship Around."

Salem has done an amazing job in hosting the Stagg and although I like the fact that the game will be played in Canton for a couple of years, I still think they should have kept it in Salem.

IMG Academy applied a few years ago, and it would have been a nice easy drive for me to attend, it didn't make sense for overall attendance at the game.  Very few locals would attend (IMO) and not everyone can make airline reservations with less that 7 days notice to support their team.

[jknezek]

I have no idea what the NCAA hopes to show with Shenandoah. If UMHB doesn't make that game, and you get a combination of UMU and UWW or UWO or any 2 schools that need to fly, attendance will likely be a true dud.

Both locations suck.  At least Texas has more neutral weather.  The same head scratching happened when the FCS chose Frisco Texas for their championship game.  I still think a location like Memphis is a better bet.  Using your logic of attendance, Salem should have poor attendance because a Virginia team didn't make to the Championship.  That doesn't compute.  A central location like Memphis makes travel time for all teams and fans lower overall; far better than Salem!

The year Bridgewater made the Stagg was the highest attended Stagg in Salem, so it does compute. 100% born out. Two of the three Staggs with the highest attendance of all time were the one in Phenix City with a school 90 miles away and the one in Salem with a school 90 or so miles away. Two of the three worst attended Staggs in Salem were Linfield/UMHB and UMHB/UWO.
Proximity is pretty clearly the major driver of attendance.

I am sure that Memphis or Nashville would be happy to host an NCAA championship of any division.  It still is a (very small) feather in the cap for the cities.  Add the tourist potential for fans traveling to either there or Nashville.  It really is a win-win for fans, the NCAA and the host.  Yes, I make a lot of assumptions, but I find it very hard to believe that Canton and somewhere down in Texas were the only options......

-Ski

Then they have to apply. Shenandoah got it because they didn't read the contract. That is clear from some of the municipal meeting notes. They offered the NCAA the world because they thought they got ticket revenue. The NCAA has had to chip in for things their bid included because the bid was done by someone without a freaking clue.

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

Nobody routinely, or ever, practices in lake effect blizzards.  That kind of condition favors nobody.  This is a bad take. 

Lake effect snow would cancel the game of course (another good reason why the location is less than ideal).  Seasonal snow and cold is another story, and that DOES play into the cold weather team's hands.  Example:  Wesley at UWW 2005.  Snow hits the field that week.  Wesley shows up (which is not a good cold weather team to begin with) and finds out that the cleats they brought were too short.  Too late.  The subsequent slip-laden game results in a 58-6 loss.  UWW practiced on that turf and were ready for the conditions.  Not saying that Wesley would have won the game, but they were better than that.

This was a seeded game.  If this was a championship, how would that show who was the better team?

-Ski

Lake Effect Snow rarely reaches the Canton Area.  More in the Upper NE corner of the state