2017 Playoffs

[Ralph Turner]

Thanks for the thoughtful post, MUC57.

It is one thing to rant/boast that UMU has an easier road to the Stagg.

If you listen to Pat and Keith on the podcasts, UMHB and UMU just played another half-season of football.  That means more reps, more practice, and more experience in the post-season for underclassmen who will be starters next season.

Yes, you have a limited roster, but an easier early round opponent gives the coach a chance to give real playing time to the non-starters in playoff games.

This also rests the bodies of the starters in game #11, #12 and maybe #13.

Perhaps the rest and the "easier" level of competition decreases the risk of injury at this time of the year.

UMHB has made it to the Stagg Bowl three times. Over on the Best Teams South Region Board I have listed UMHB's runs.

1) 2016 UMHB -- (15-0) Beat UW-Oshkosh 10-7 in the Stagg. Had a good run to Salem beating (unranked in Week #11 Top 25) Redlands, #8 Linfield, #13 Wheaton IL, #7 Mount Union in the CRUthedral.

2)  2004 UMHB -- (13-2) Did it Ginger Rogers style.  (Refers to the old joke, who was the better dancer...Fred Astaire or Ginger Rogers?  Rogers did everything that Astaire did, backwards and in high heels.)  Was a Pool C bid, back when there were only 3.  Beat #7 Trinity by 29, #3 HSU by 14, #5 W&J by 36 and #1 Mount Union by 3 on the road.  Lost to Elliott's #2 Linfield in the Stagg, 21-28.

2017  UMHB Chapman unranked, Linfield #8 Tommies #4 Brockport #10

[Desertraider]

All the talk of easier road is fine in any given year - I guess. But let's be realistic: Mount plays whom ever the bracket says they play. They can't control who it is - most of it is determined by geography. However, it's hard to argue easier path over the course of 25+ years. I don't think the NCAA manufactures Mounts results because in all honesty I think they (the NCAA) would prefer to stack the deck against them - especially after this many years. But when all is said and done Mount has played UWW, UWO, Tommies, Johnnies, Wheaton, NCC, Wesley, UMHB, Trinity, Bridgewater, and Rowan (among others) and beat them all. This argument always comes back to this: if you want Mount to have a "harder road" - beat them. jcu beat them in 2016 and Mount went on the road and still made it to the semis (lost 14-12 to eventual champion UMHB) with a 3rd string Fr. QB. Face it - Mount is good. Period.   

[MUC57]

desertraider

Welcome to 2018! Your last post was about the same as one I put on the ASC board before Ralph Turner moved the discussion over here. Hope you read my earlier posts on this board. I think, for a change, I made some sense!
You and I seem to understand how the playoff selection impacts Mount. Why can't everyone else?
In the meantime, while others talk about Mount's "easy path" to the Stagg Bowl, we'll be looking for #14, all the while having a good time. Damn, it feels good to be a Mount Union alumnus and a Raider fan!
Best to ya in this new year and go get 'em Raiders!

[crufootball]

All the talk of easier road is fine in any given year - I guess. But let's be realistic: Mount plays whom ever the bracket says they play. They can't control who it is - most of it is determined by geography. However, it's hard to argue easier path over the course of 25+ years. I don't think the NCAA manufactures Mounts results because in all honesty I think they (the NCAA) would prefer to stack the deck against them - especially after this many years. But when all is said and done Mount has played UWW, UWO, Tommies, Johnnies, Wheaton, NCC, Wesley, UMHB, Trinity, Bridgewater, and Rowan (among others) and beat them all. This argument always comes back to this: if you want Mount to have a "harder road" - beat them. jcu beat them in 2016 and Mount went on the road and still made it to the semis (lost 14-12 to eventual champion UMHB) with a 3rd string Fr. QB. Face it - Mount is good. Period.

The problem with this argument is neither side is ever going to be able to truly understand the other side.

Mount Union fans can accurately point out that they don't make the bracket, that they play whoever is put in front of them and that they have shown they can beat just about everyone on a consistent basis.

However everyone else can point to that fact that the bracket is not "fair" (and never will be) and they are forced into playing tougher teams early in the bracket which means one of them is putting up the pads earlier than they probably should.

And to speak directly to your argument about beating Mount Union, UMHB did and was rewarded this year by playing the 4th, 5th, and 6th best teams in the country, while Mount played the 3rd, 9th and 13th. Now we obviously did lose to Mount Union so they proved they were the better team but I also do have to point out that we held the first string QB to 12 points too, we just didn't score the 14 points this year 

In the end Mount Union is, was, and probably will be on of the best D3 footballs teams in any given year and the rest of us are just doing our best to try to earn our shot to get in the way.

[Ralph Turner]

+1! Crufootball

The D3 playoffs ... "It is what it is."

Detaching ourselves from the emotional involvement of the respective schools, the arguments have been elaborated and we on the "island of D3", along with the NWC, have access to the playoffs.

Win them all.

[MUC57]

crufootball

Good post. Can't argue with what you said. UMHB is certainly a standout program. On this day, Mount was better. You'll have to excuse some of us. We tend to be a little overzealous.
I graduated in 1957 (now the MUC57 makes sense),. The four years I was here the team won 10 games total. So those of us that are older are having fun but also get a little testy on some issues.
I hope that recognition for their staggering accomplishments or not, stinging criticizesms or not, the Raiders continue winning. Hey, we're all mostly grown adults. The championships and records cannot be taken away. We know this phenomenal stretch will not last forever.
But damn, this sure does feel good. We're having a great time. Looking for #14.
Good luck to The Cru in 2018. I feel fairly sure you'll be back, fighting for another championship!

[jknezek]

And once again the DI system craps the bed. So thankful how the rest of the NCAA actually allows teams to have a shot at the championship at the beginning of every season.  13-0, beat a team that beat 2 CFP teams, and still no shot at the National Title. It's just pathetic how DI football is run...

[Desertraider]

And once again the DI system craps the bed. So thankful how the rest of the NCAA actually allows teams to have a shot at the championship at the beginning of every season.  13-0, beat a team that beat 2 CFP teams, and still no shot at the National Title. It's just pathetic how DI football is run...

Great point. As flawed as some may think the D3 system is - 32 teams have a legitimate shot at a title every year. Some may have a harder road but it doesn't take away from the fact that 32 teams get in the tourney every year. I can't stand to see the D1'ers argue the "playoff" - it isn't a playoff. Put in a system where every conference champ get an AQ (I think it's 19 conferences). Allow 5 pool B or at large or whatever - 24 team tourney. Play starts the Sat after season wraps and goes each Sat until Championship (rotated among the Bowl games like they do now). Get rid of the cupcake games from week 1 and 2 to trim season down to 15 games total.

On the path to Stagg - it has just worked out that UMHB, Linfield, UWW, UWO, Tommies are geographically prohibited from the East bracket. That is going to put them in West/North/South. To fix it...what have teams from CA, TX, MN or WI travel to NY, MD, PA or reverse? I don't see that happening with he travel restrictions in place.

[WRMUalum13]

And once again the DI system craps the bed. So thankful how the rest of the NCAA actually allows teams to have a shot at the championship at the beginning of every season.  13-0, beat a team that beat 2 CFP teams, and still no shot at the National Title. It's just pathetic how DI football is run...

Great point. As flawed as some may think the D3 system is - 32 teams have a legitimate shot at a title every year. Some may have a harder road but it doesn't take away from the fact that 32 teams get in the tourney every year. I can't stand to see the D1'ers argue the "playoff" - it isn't a playoff. Put in a system where every conference champ get an AQ (I think it's 19 conferences). Allow 5 pool B or at large or whatever - 24 team tourney. Play starts the Sat after season wraps and goes each Sat until Championship (rotated among the Bowl games like they do now). Get rid of the cupcake games from week 1 and 2 to trim season down to 15 games total.

On the path to Stagg - it has just worked out that UMHB, Linfield, UWW, UWO, Tommies are geographically prohibited from the East bracket. That is going to put them in West/North/South. To fix it...what have teams from CA, TX, MN or WI travel to NY, MD, PA or reverse? I don't see that happening with he travel restrictions in place.

There's only 10 d1 FBS conferences

[Desertraider]

And once again the DI system craps the bed. So thankful how the rest of the NCAA actually allows teams to have a shot at the championship at the beginning of every season.  13-0, beat a team that beat 2 CFP teams, and still no shot at the National Title. It's just pathetic how DI football is run...

Great point. As flawed as some may think the D3 system is - 32 teams have a legitimate shot at a title every year. Some may have a harder road but it doesn't take away from the fact that 32 teams get in the tourney every year. I can't stand to see the D1'ers argue the "playoff" - it isn't a playoff. Put in a system where every conference champ get an AQ (I think it's 19 conferences). Allow 5 pool B or at large or whatever - 24 team tourney. Play starts the Sat after season wraps and goes each Sat until Championship (rotated among the Bowl games like they do now). Get rid of the cupcake games from week 1 and 2 to trim season down to 15 games total.

On the path to Stagg - it has just worked out that UMHB, Linfield, UWW, UWO, Tommies are geographically prohibited from the East bracket. That is going to put them in West/North/South. To fix it...what have teams from CA, TX, MN or WI travel to NY, MD, PA or reverse? I don't see that happening with he travel restrictions in place.

There's only 10 d1 FBS conferences

Great - even easier. 10 bids, 6 at large. 16 team tourney.

[hsbsballcoach7]

And once again the DI system craps the bed. So thankful how the rest of the NCAA actually allows teams to have a shot at the championship at the beginning of every season.  13-0, beat a team that beat 2 CFP teams, and still no shot at the National Title. It's just pathetic how DI football is run...

Great point. As flawed as some may think the D3 system is - 32 teams have a legitimate shot at a title every year. Some may have a harder road but it doesn't take away from the fact that 32 teams get in the tourney every year. I can't stand to see the D1'ers argue the "playoff" - it isn't a playoff. Put in a system where every conference champ get an AQ (I think it's 19 conferences). Allow 5 pool B or at large or whatever - 24 team tourney. Play starts the Sat after season wraps and goes each Sat until Championship (rotated among the Bowl games like they do now). Get rid of the cupcake games from week 1 and 2 to trim season down to 15 games total.

On the path to Stagg - it has just worked out that UMHB, Linfield, UWW, UWO, Tommies are geographically prohibited from the East bracket. That is going to put them in West/North/South. To fix it...what have teams from CA, TX, MN or WI travel to NY, MD, PA or reverse? I don't see that happening with he travel restrictions in place.

There's only 10 d1 FBS conferences

Great - even easier. 10 bids, 6 at large. 16 team tourney.

The D1 complaint is either
1. Too much stress on students to play 15 games and go to class
2. Too short of notice to travel $$$

I think it's all crappy excuses. Why can EVERY SPORT IN EVERY DIVISION do it, but D1? $$$$(so they think) All they have to do to "fix" the number of games is to force people to quit scheduling FCS, Citadel, GA St, Kent State.... they'd "lose money" by losing a home game, but have the potential to gain a ton more if you play even 1 playoff game and keep playing.
Even though I think they'd make more money than now.
8 team playoff with 5 Power 5 conference champs, then 3 at large. Then you still give the Notre Dames, UCF, Boise St, etc a chance if they go undefeated.

[Desertraider]

And the biggest joke of an excuse is the 'they have to go to class' argument. To many 2 and outs to make that argument. It is all about the money. I would love to see D1 experiment with it 1 year - announce they will try the expanded playoff in 2021. I am willing to bet the money would go up.

[Ralph Turner]

I have one other perspective. In D-3, 31 coaches lost the last game of the season.

In FBS, 30 coaches won their last game of the season, and I will bet another 10-15 teams were glad to play in a bowl. (Wait til next year!) Much less pressure on the Head Coach.

[joelmama]

Ralph,

This is a really good discussion and a lot of good arguments made by a number of folks from almost every region.

The facts are:

Teams in the South and the West are likely to have a tougher road unless D3 expands more in those regions (it is doing so but at a pretty slow pace). 
Mount generally has had an easier time of it, generally being at home and also being in proximity to the East region which has generally been a weaker region for the past two decades.
One factor that might influence the analysis (using the rankings) that you did Ralph is that if a team was playing on the road against a team that should also make the road a little harder.
Mount's reputation and performance in the Stagg has given them the #1 seed a number of years when maybe their performance should have merited them the 2nd, 3rd or 4th seed.

In the end Mount won 13 of 20 Stagg's, and assuming they were playing the best available in D3 in the Stagg that is a pretty good ratio that says Mount however they got their was appropriately placed.

[Ralph Turner]

Ralph,

This is a really good discussion and a lot of good arguments made by a number of folks from almost every region.

The facts are:

Teams in the South and the West are likely to have a tougher road unless D3 expands more in those regions (it is doing so but at a pretty slow pace).
Mount generally has had an easier time of it, generally being at home and also being in proximity to the East region which has generally been a weaker region for the past two decades.
One factor that might influence the analysis (using the rankings) that you did Ralph is that if a team was playing on the road against a team that should also make the road a little harder.
Mount's reputation and performance in the Stagg has given them the #1 seed a number of years when maybe their performance should have merited them the 2nd, 3rd or 4th seed.

In the end Mount won 13 of 20 Stagg's, and assuming they were playing the best available in D3 in the Stagg that is a pretty good ratio that says Mount however they got their was appropriately placed.

Thanks for the kind words, joelmanna.

You prompt a thought.

I want to go back to the beginning of the time (   when D3football.com come online which is roughly when D3 went to the Pool system for football    ) and see who has added football.