The Big Dance

[4samuy]

Chicago just CLINICAL...They deserve it....


NOTE:   Emory's GK WAS NOT NEAR any of those PK's....Why make that change? The Emory starter was a lightning quick GK that might have gotten to maybe 1 of those....

Yeah I don't get that.  Maybe because he's a freshman without the experience.  The guy they brought in was quite large, but you're right he didn't seem real comfortable.

[Mr.Right]

Chicago just CLINICAL...They deserve it....


NOTE:   Emory's GK WAS NOT NEAR any of those PK's....Why make that change? The Emory starter was a lightning quick GK that might have gotten to maybe 1 of those....

Yeah I don't get that.  Maybe because he's a freshman without the experience.  The guy they brought in was quite large, but you're right he didn't seem real comfortable.

Exactly,,,,The other GK like you said was quick as a cat but the GK off the bench almost looked immobile....Still an Elite 8 for an interim Head Coach is not bad. As long as the players give him decent reviews I am sure he will have a leg up on anyone else although maybe still a bit young..Still have no clue why Travis resigned to be an AD in Iowa....Oh Well...They do lose a ton of quality seniors so unless he gets a legit class they might struggle for a year or 2.

[D3soccerwatcher]

Conference representation in Elite 8:

CCIW - 1 team
MAC Commonwealth - 1 team
NESCAC - 1 team
MIAC 1 team
UAA - 4 teams (some one else asked this earlier, but has this ever been accomplished before)

[D3soccerwatcher]

While Rouin is obviously a very good player, and what he did today was amazing, I thought the way Amherst represented him in the game recap on their website was interesting...

"...a heroic effort by Yellow Jacket Geoffrey Rouin that saw one of the nation's top scorers register two goals in a three minute span directed the University of Rochester past the No. 16 Amherst College men's soccer team, 2-1 in NCAA Championship Third Round play Saturday afternoon at Starry Turf Field."

Rouin came into the game:
72nd in the nation in total goals
83rd in the nation in goals per game
116th in the nation in total points

Maybe that qualifies as "one of the nation's top scorers"...what do you guys think?  Doesn't really matter, but it sorta stood out to me.

[Flying Weasel]

I wonder if a single conference has EVER had 4 teams in the elite 8. Unbelievable.

No, of course this has never happened before. In fact, no conference has ever had three teams in the Elite 8 before. And, to be realistic, this is something that is almost only possible for a conference like UAA that is so geographically diverse.

Up through 1996, with the tournament field size growing from the initial 16 to 24 to 32, the bracketing was strictly regional (note: no AQs). That is, four teams were selected from each region and they played each other in the first two rounds. So it was impossible for all conferences except those with teams assigned to different regions (maybe just the UAA & SCAC) to have two teams reach the Elite 8, much less four. And only a few conferences had a chance of monopolizing all four selections for their region. The huge, four-division Middle Atlantic Conference (MAC) could at times (twice in the 80's with the 24-team field, and three times to start the 90's with the 32-team field before the defection of the Centennial schools). And the NJAC would gain all four Metro selections for all but one year from 1990 to 1998. The NCAC took all Great Lakes spots in 1992. And after NESCAC allow their teams to participate starting in 1993, they took all four New England berths in 1995.

Very little changed with the expansion to a 40-team field for the 1997 and 1998 seasons, with proportional representation giving some regions a share of the additional 8 berths (e.g. New England gained three more berths). The bracketing remained regional with one exception: one New England team each year was shipped to the Metro Region. So even though the NJAC and NESCAC would get four teams selected both years, only in 1997 when the fourth (weakest) NESCAC team was the New England team shipped to the Metro Region was it even possible for a conference to have two Elite 8 teams (and Trinity-CT couldn't navigate through the NJACMetro region, and that was that.).

The tournament field increased to 44 teams in 1999 to accommodate the introduction of the AQs. But the AQs meant it was much more difficult for a conference to have multiple representatives as there were only three or four Pool C at-large berths initially, growing to five while the field remained at 44 through the 2004 season. During this six-year period, only once did a conference have three teams in the tournament: NJAC in 2001. And with the brackets still mostly, but no longer strictly, regional through 2001, the few times a conference has two teams in, they met in the Sweet 16 round. In 2002, the bracketing, especially of the four eastern regions, really started to become more flexible and the first conference to take advantage of that and have two Elite 8 teams was not one of the conferences you'd probably guess: it was the NEWMAC in 2003 with MIT and Wheaton (Mass.) whose paths would meet in the quarterfinals. The feat wouldn't be repeated until the tournament field expanded again in 2005. 

With the adoption of an access ratio (1 spot for every 6.5 eligible teams) to determine the field size (up to a maximum of 64), 2005 saw the tournament field grow substantially to 57 teams. This meant 15 or so Pool C at-large berths and a much better chance for the top conference to get three or four teams into the tournament, maybe even five in the case of the geographically dispersed UAA. The jump in at-large berths combined with a conscious effort to inter-regionalize the bracketing meant more realistic potential for multiple Elite 8 teams from the same conference. The SUNYAC, with three teams in the tournament, would immediately become the second conference with a pair of Elite 8 teams when Plattsburgh St. and Fredonia St. both reached the 2005 quarterfinals. The UAA would have four and five teams in the 2005 and 2006 tournaments, but never more than one Elite 8 team. The Centennial got four teams into the 2007 tournament, but none even reached the Sweet 16.

From 2008 to 2011, the field grew by one team each year, arriving at 61 in 2011 and with fewer and fewer independents and non-AQ conferences (i.e. fewer Pool B at-large berths), the number of Pool C at-large berths grew to 19. However, even with just two teams in the 2008 tournament, the NESCAC became the third conference in tournament history with two Elite 8 teams when both defending champion Middlebury and Amherst reached the quarterfinals. The next two years (2009, 2010) the NESCAC got four teams into the tournament for the first time in over a decade, and repeated the feat in 2010 when Bowdoin and Middlebury met each other in a quarterfinal match. It should be noted that in both years the bracketing meant the most the NESCAC could have gotten into the Elite 8 was two as they were put on two Sweet 16 collision courses each year, all in the same quadrant in 2010.

From 2010 through last year, the only conference to get four or more teams into the tournament was the UAA: four teams in 2012, 2014 and 2015; five in 2012 and 2016. But only twice in those five years did even one UAA reach the quarterfinals. Due perhaps more to it being a down year across the rest of the New England region than its own strength, the NESCAC had five entrants this year and favorable bracketing that allowed up to four to reach the Elite 8, but of course only one did. The UAA with their four entrants this year, defied tournament history, UAA precedent, and the odds to not only become just the fifth conference with multiple Elite 8 teams, not just the first with more than two Elite 8 teams, but they got all four entrants to the doorstep of the Final Four.

Not only does the UAA, due to the combination of their quality and their geographical dispersal, have the best chance of having four or more tournament participants, but they also stand a better chance that their teams will avoid each other until deeper into the tournament. While the NESCAC may be equal or stronger than the UAA in most years, it's simply more difficult to get as many teams selected by coming out of the same region and more likely they run into each other prior to the quarterfinals.  And the same would apply to any other conference that would get strong enough to get four teams into the tournament. So in many ways, it's not even fair to ask if any other conference has ever had four Elite 8 teams.

That's not to take away from the accomplishment it is for the UAA to have four Elite 8 teams. Sure, to a large extent the UAA is uniquely situated to be able to have a shot at doing this, but the UAA had never previously had two Elite 8 teams. In fact, they never had more than two Sweet 16 teams. So congratulations to the UAA for finally living up to the hype and making history!

[Ejay]

While Rouin is obviously a very good player, and what he did today was amazing, I thought the way Amherst represented him in the game recap on their website was interesting...

"...a heroic effort by Yellow Jacket Geoffrey Rouin that saw one of the nation's top scorers register two goals in a three minute span directed the University of Rochester past the No. 16 Amherst College men's soccer team, 2-1 in NCAA Championship Third Round play Saturday afternoon at Starry Turf Field."

Rouin came into the game:
72nd in the nation in total goals
83rd in the nation in goals per game
116th in the nation in total points

Maybe that qualifies as "one of the nation's top scorers"...what do you guys think?  Doesn't really matter, but it sorta stood out to me.

Maybe his mom is the SID?

[rudy]

For Messiah's quadrant this weekend.  Previews of the teams will be up soon I expect..

http://gomessiah.com/sports/2017/11/13/MS111316-20161st2nd.aspx?id=311

Are you planning to be there, Rudy? I will probably spend the whole day in the stands, soaking in the magnificent cloud cover and drizzle, unless it just pours. I might have seen you at the Lyco game--were you perhaps sitting with another son who looks a lot like Shay?

Hi falconer. I was not at Lyco game. Only went to one game to this year in September..cant even remember the  team. I was going to go down this weekend but not sure we'll make it Saturday. If they win Saturday may head there for Sunday game....no rain Sunday! Hope the rain is minimal for Saturday games or the field will be mud by Sunday.  Are you an alumni, former player, or parent of former player? My other son is at college in Florida..not playing sports..guess he had his thrill in HS and couldn't match the team he played for in his junior year. Hope to meet up with you if you are there Sunday

I'll be there on both days (should Messiah take care of business on Sat.).  It would be great to meet up with both of you (and any other forum members who might be there).

Falconer, it's possible that I'm the one you saw at the Lyco game.  I was by there by myself (wife was working and BIL didn't go due to the rain).  Midway through the first half, a young man came up and sat beside me.  When the rain picked back up, I offered to share my umbrella.  It turns out that he is a 2nd semester H.S. senior (Carlisle) and will be coming to Messiah in the spring and joining the team as a GK.  His name is Jared Pavlovich and could definitely pass as Shay Quinton's brother.  He seemed like a really nice kid and it was fun to hear his perspective on the game.  Here's a video I found of him and some teammates taken before their season started.   http://highschoolsports.pennlive.com/news/article/-4779733317751309297/carlisle-boys-soccer-has-a-great-group-in-2017/

Sent you a private message Dave B.

[firstplaceloser]

I wonder if a single conference has EVER had 4 teams in the elite 8. Unbelievable.

No, of course this has never happened before. In fact, no conference has ever had three teams in the Elite 8 before. And, to be realistic, this is something that is almost only possible for a conference like UAA that is so geographically diverse.

Up through 1996, with the tournament field size growing from the initial 16 to 24 to 32, the bracketing was strictly regional (note: no AQs). That is, four teams were selected from each region and they played each other in the first two rounds. So it was impossible for all conferences except those with teams assigned to different regions (maybe just the UAA & SCAC) to have two teams reach the Elite 8, much less four. And only a few conferences had a chance of monopolizing all four selections for their region. The huge, four-division Middle Atlantic Conference (MAC) could at times (twice in the 80's with the 24-team field, and three times to start the 90's with the 32-team field before the defection of the Centennial schools). And the NJAC would gain all four Metro selections for all but one year from 1990 to 1998. The NCAC took all Great Lakes spots in 1992. And after NESCAC allow their teams to participate starting in 1993, they took all four New England berths in 1995.

Very little changed with the expansion to a 40-team field for the 1997 and 1998 seasons, with proportional representation giving some regions a share of the additional 8 berths (e.g. New England gained three more berths). The bracketing remained regional with one exception: one New England team each year was shipped to the Metro Region. So even though the NJAC and NESCAC would get four teams selected both years, only in 1997 when the fourth (weakest) NESCAC team was the New England team shipped to the Metro Region was it even possible for a conference to have two Elite 8 teams (and Trinity-CT couldn't navigate through the NJACMetro region, and that was that.).

The tournament field increased to 44 teams in 1999 to accommodate the introduction of the AQs. But the AQs meant it was much more difficult for a conference to have multiple representatives as there were only three or four Pool C at-large berths initially, growing to five while the field remained at 44 through the 2004 season. During this six-year period, only once did a conference have three teams in the tournament: NJAC in 2001. And with the brackets still mostly, but no longer strictly, regional through 2001, the few times a conference has two teams in, they met in the Sweet 16 round. In 2002, the bracketing, especially of the four eastern regions, really started to become more flexible and the first conference to take advantage of that and have two Elite 8 teams was not one of the conferences you'd probably guess: it was the NEWMAC in 2003 with MIT and Wheaton (Mass.) whose paths would meet in the quarterfinals. The feat wouldn't be repeated until the tournament field expanded again in 2005. 

With the adoption of an access ratio (1 spot for every 6.5 eligible teams) to determine the field size (up to a maximum of 64), 2005 saw the tournament field grow substantially to 57 teams. This meant 15 or so Pool C at-large berths and a much better chance for the top conference to get three or four teams into the tournament, maybe even five in the case of the geographically dispersed UAA. The jump in at-large berths combined with a conscious effort to inter-regionalize the bracketing meant more realistic potential for multiple Elite 8 teams from the same conference. The SUNYAC, with three teams in the tournament, would immediately become the second conference with a pair of Elite 8 teams when Plattsburgh St. and Fredonia St. both reached the 2005 quarterfinals. The UAA would have four and five teams in the 2005 and 2006 tournaments, but never more than one Elite 8 team. The Centennial got four teams into the 2007 tournament, but none even reached the Sweet 16.

From 2008 to 2011, the field grew by one team each year, arriving at 61 in 2011 and with fewer and fewer independents and non-AQ conferences (i.e. fewer Pool B at-large berths), the number of Pool C at-large berths grew to 19. However, even with just two teams in the 2008 tournament, the NESCAC became the third conference in tournament history with two Elite 8 teams when both defending champion Middlebury and Amherst reached the quarterfinals. The next two years (2009, 2010) the NESCAC got four teams into the tournament for the first time in over a decade, and repeated the feat in 2010 when Bowdoin and Middlebury met each other in a quarterfinal match. It should be noted that in both years the bracketing meant the most the NESCAC could have gotten into the Elite 8 was two as they were put on two Sweet 16 collision courses each year, all in the same quadrant in 2010.

From 2010 through last year, the only conference to get four or more teams into the tournament was the UAA: four teams in 2012, 2014 and 2015; five in 2012 and 2016. But only twice in those five years did even one UAA reach the quarterfinals. Due perhaps more to it being a down year across the rest of the New England region than its own strength, the NESCAC had five entrants this year and favorable bracketing that allowed up to four to reach the Elite 8, but of course only one did. The UAA with their four entrants this year, defied tournament history, UAA precedent, and the odds to not only become just the fifth conference with multiple Elite 8 teams, not just the first with more than two Elite 8 teams, but they got all four entrants to the doorstep of the Final Four.

Not only does the UAA, due to the combination of their quality and their geographical dispersal, have the best chance of having four or more tournament participants, but they also stand a better chance that their teams will avoid each other until deeper into the tournament. While the NESCAC may be equal or stronger than the UAA in most years, it's simply more difficult to get as many teams selected by coming out of the same region and more likely they run into each other prior to the quarterfinals.  And the same would apply to any other conference that would get strong enough to get four teams into the tournament. So in many ways, it's not even fair to ask if any other conference has ever had four Elite 8 teams.

That's not to take away from the accomplishment it is for the UAA to have four Elite 8 teams. Sure, to a large extent the UAA is uniquely situated to be able to have a shot at doing this, but the UAA had never previously had two Elite 8 teams. In fact, they never had more than two Sweet 16 teams. So congratulations to the UAA for finally living up to the hype and making history!

very interesting.  +k for the MLA 5-paragraph essay format lol

[firstplaceloser]

who would you guys say has been the most dominate this tournament ? as well as of the teams remaining who has underperformed?

I would go with North Park as most dominating ( didn't know much about them before the NCAAs) and underperforming is a tie between Tufts* who can't score, and Messiah who hasn't really dominated anyone. I did not think Stevens was that good and was not expecting a 3-2 scoreline.

could even throw amherst in there but they never really dominated teams. they would score 1 then defend

[Jump4Joy]

I would go with North Park as most dominating ( didn't know much about them before the NCAAs) and underperforming is a tie between Amherst who can't score, and Messiah who hasn't really dominated anyone. I did not think Stevens was that good and was not expecting a 3-2 scoreline

Firstplace, did you mean to say "Tufts" who can't score?
Amherst scored four in NCAA play this year, not including PK shootout, while Tufts has scored zilch.
Perhaps you meant to highlight Amherst's lack of shut-outs (to Tufts' two)?
Amherst's young team will have learned much from this season and will be stronger for it in 2018.
Meanwhile, go Jumbos! Go NESCAC!

[firstplaceloser]

I would go with North Park as most dominating ( didn't know much about them before the NCAAs) and underperforming is a tie between Amherst who can't score, and Messiah who hasn't really dominated anyone. I did not think Stevens was that good and was not expecting a 3-2 scoreline

Firstplace, did you mean to say "Tufts" who can't score?
Amherst scored four in NCAA play this year, not including PK shootout, while Tufts has scored zilch.
Perhaps you meant to highlight Amherst's lack of shut-outs (to Tufts' two)?
Amherst's young team will have learned much from this season and will be stronger for it in 2018.
Meanwhile, go Jumbos! Go NESCAC!

haha whoops you're right. my mistake!

[Hopkins92]

I'm no where near as knowledgeable as most of you, but having watched the bulk of yesterday's Hop-Tufts match...  meh. Tufts is a decent side, and I heard from the broadcast that they were missing a speedy flank player... But they were just... ok. I saw people predicting 2-0, 3-0 and I was kind of scratching my head watching that game. They definitely had more chances, deserved the win... But I was underwhelmed by them overall.

From a parochial point of view... One of the things I look for is which team has players willing to take people on. The tighter a player/team is, the more likely the are to drop off a quick pass rather than showing some initiative and taking on a defender off the dribble. Younker was really the only guy that consistently tried this, and he was also consistently shut down by a very good D. You could just tell Tufts was playing with a sliver more confidence, and in the end it showed in the PKs.

Also, I've watched Hop lose in OT at Messiah, and I watched the Dickinson semifinal game... Whoo boy do they suck at PKs. Their goalie is very good and he saved them during regulation, but he was pretty lost (imo) in both PK sessions I watched. But more importantly (I'm a goalie, so this where my head is at), guys missing or taking ****ty kicks is just not acceptable. The goalie has to make an educated guess. If a kicker puts decent wood on the ball and puts it side netting, it's almost always unstoppable. To go 1 for 4 to start is just bonkers. (They did roughly the same thing against Dickinson.)

[Hopkins92]

Messiah with a brilliant run down the left flank, perfect cross, header slams into the back of the net. Text book.

1-0 25 mins left in the 2nd.

Rochester roaring back with tons of pressure, just earned a CK.

[Hopkins92]

Meanwhile, NP looking very impressive against St. Thomas. Dominating the game and unlucky not to have scored by now. 22 mins 1st half.

[Hopkins92]

The guy on Messiah's left wing? Unstoppable today. He is absolutely gashing Rochester down that side. Fast as a greyhound.