Slate: "Is Wesleyan Compromising ... to build an athletics cash cow?"

[Caz Bombers]

So if we're fantasy booking the dissolution of the UAA, we'd see UR to the LL fully, CWRU and CMU to PAC or NCAC, and then what, WUSTL and Chicago to CCIW, Emory to SAA, Brandeis NEWMAC or NESCAC, and NYU maybe Landmark or LL?

Just some idle conjecture on a dull rainy Tuesday afternoon.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Per Rochester and the UAA and Liberty League ... take some of the info at face value.

I do NOT suggest going to the conference websites and seeing where Rochester pops up on their "standings" and such. There is a nice new "trick" with conferences that is going on. I'll use the MAC as a great example. They now have ice hockey as a sponsored sport. However, all of the MAC schools are in another ice hockey conference. The MAC hands out awards and such, but they have no AQ. However if you go on the MAC website, it will make you think it is the home for the ice hockey teams and such. It is just a backup when and if there are enough teams for an AQ.

UAA has the same in football. They don't play a conference schedule per se and they don't have an AQ. They have four teams, but that doesn't keep the UAA from showing "standings" and handing out awards.

The best way to see how many sports a school is in a particular conference is to look at the schedules and what they mark as official conference games. Per Sager's research, I do believe you found the sports they are members in the UAA - that number was higher than the one I thought I put together. However, I would argue you could condense that technically to six (you forgot men's soccer, BTW) to being basketball, cross-country, swimming & diving, soccer, tennis, and volleyball.

My bigger point about the UAA is when will costs become an overriding factor. I was given the example of a school (forget who) who's softball team traveled to Brandeis for a weekend series. The trip was four or five days ... they didn't play a single game. They couldn't be made up.

At some point, those costs and time away from class, especially in sports like baseball and softball, are going to become problematic in the current environment. Why would schools pay all that money and missed class time to risk not playing any games ... when they could have stayed closer to home and made it work.

I love the UAA and certainly wouldn't want to see it disappear, but the conversations I have had do make the landscape understandable. WashU and Chicago can easily find homes - most likely in the CCIW. Brandeis could easily join the NESCAC or NEWMAC. Emory could join the SAA (maybe entice W&L to join them). Case Western could join the NCAC or maybe the OAC. Carnegie Mellon could join the NCAC or OAC. Rochester could go full time into the Liberty League. NYU ... not sure where they would go.

Do I think the UAA will disappear in the short term? No. Do I think one or two schools could pull up stakes and change the complexion? Yes.

[jknezek]

--- Changing what I wrote for those who read my first version ---

Per W&L ... I do not think they are actively trying to get into the UAA. I believe it has been a thought and a dream, but they are also realistic. I don't think they feel they necessarily fit in the ODAC and it has been more of a necessity than anything else. I feel they respect the other schools in the ODAC and have done right by the conference, but they have loftier goals or loftier thoughts on their place in DIII.

I wouldn't think anyone who dreams W&L should be in the UAA really understands what the UAA is. W&L does not share their mission and values. Frankly they'd fit better in the NESCAC if all someone wants is to boost the school reputation, and their odds on joining the NESCAC versus joining the UAA both hover around 0.

I think if they could join the Centennial (they are an associate member in wrestling) they would be interested, but I don't feel the Centennial has any interest in an outlier travel wise.

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The Centennial is the only reasonable conference they could be part of for wrestling. The only other option is the Southeast Wrestling Conference, which is one of those made up things that is more a conference in name and attempt to get bids (6 members... so close) than something useful.

I think W&L is a good fit in the SAA, but for whatever reason that hasn't come together either.

See above. The travel would suck and what is it that you actually gain? Sure, slightly better reputation of the colleges, but we aren't talking about vaulting into the UAA or NESCAC area. So shell out big bucks, big time, create big problems, for very little? It just doesn't make sense.

Ultimately, if W&L wanted to leave the ODAC they would ... and the only reason they haven't is they don't have a place to go. I feel they would love to be in the UAA, but also understand they don't exactly fit the mold. However, that is a place they would love to sit.

I don't think they really would love to sit there when they look at the expense. A few people with overblown egos might think it would help, but I can't imagine the school actually doing it.

Had Southern Virginia been admitted to the ODAC, I do wonder if W&L would have left by now.

W&L has played SVa in most sports over the years at different times. It's pretty much an annual soccer match for at least the men, having played 15 times. The football teams played in 2008. Men's basketball has played 3 times. Women's basketball has played 8 times. Women's soccer has played 3 times. Men's baseball has played 33 times. It just depends. I think where W&L feels scheduling SVa is a useful opponent, either as a tune up (men's soccer) or as a general opponent (baseball), then they do. When they think it's a silly mismatch (lacrosse, tennis), they generally don't.

But I have no idea why the ODAC took on both Ferrum and SVa unless they are concerned about someone leaving in football. The obvious school to leave would be W&L, but I just don't see how the SAA would be better and the UAA is a pipe dream, and there isn't really another candidate.

[Gregory Sager]

It would be their logical place to land. The same probably goes for Carnegie Mellon as well, although the NCAC might consider Pittsburgh to be a little too far outside the league's geographical footprint.

That reminds me of a story. I was talking to a Dad at one of the OWU games. He was so excited he had heard what he thought was a juicy bit of gossip and he could not wait to share it. He had Heard CMU was joining the NCAC, and Ingles was going to come back to coaching as OWU's baseball coach. You see Ingles in all his years coaching at OWU had never beat CMU, and wanted another opportunity. He could not figure out why I was laughing so hard. I told him to go look up CMU's baseball program and get back to me. He did not talk to me the rest of the season.

Numbers would be even for Football, however not Baseball.

That's only one sport. The NCAC sponsors 23 sports, and CMU plays eighteen of them. Unless there's a rule written in the league constitution that each school has to sponsor baseball, it wouldn't be a deal-breaker for getting CMU into the league. And I can't imagine any NCAC member institution president saying no to Carnegie Mellon strictly on the basis that it would give the league uneven numbers for a specific sport out of that 23.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I think if they could join the Centennial (they are an associate member in wrestling) they would be interested, but I don't feel the Centennial has any interest in an outlier travel wise.

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The Centennial is the only reasonable conference they could be part of for wrestling. The only other option is the Southeast Wrestling Conference, which is one of those made up things that is more a conference in name and attempt to get bids (6 members... so close) than something useful.

I understand that. I was just pointing out there are some who feel W&L would be interested in joining the Centennial full time. The schools in the Centennial are very much alike to W&L.

I think W&L is a good fit in the SAA, but for whatever reason that hasn't come together either.

See above. The travel would suck and what is it that you actually gain? Sure, slightly better reputation of the colleges, but we aren't talking about vaulting into the UAA or NESCAC area. So shell out big bucks, big time, create big problems, for very little? It just doesn't make sense.

There are a lot of things that get decided in DIII that don't make sense. Sometimes I have to remove that thinking to see the landscape schools are seeing. They would possibly/arguably have easier access to AQs.

Ultimately, if W&L wanted to leave the ODAC they would ... and the only reason they haven't is they don't have a place to go. I feel they would love to be in the UAA, but also understand they don't exactly fit the mold. However, that is a place they would love to sit.

I don't think they really would love to sit there when they look at the expense. A few people with overblown egos might think it would help, but I can't imagine the school actually doing it.

Bingo. Those egos like to talk as well, thus why W&L tends to come up in conversations I'm having with people about unrelated conference moves.

Had Southern Virginia been admitted to the ODAC, I do wonder if W&L would have left by now.

W&L has played SVa in most sports over the years at different times. It's pretty much an annual soccer match for at least the men, having played 15 times. The football teams played in 2008. Men's basketball has played 3 times. Women's basketball has played 8 times. Women's soccer has played 3 times. Men's baseball has played 33 times. It just depends. I think where W&L feels scheduling SVa is a useful opponent, either as a tune up (men's soccer) or as a general opponent (baseball), then they do. When they think it's a silly mismatch (lacrosse, tennis), they generally don't.

But I have no idea why the ODAC took on both Ferrum and SVa unless they are concerned about someone leaving in football. The obvious school to leave would be W&L, but I just don't see how the SAA would be better and the UAA is a pipe dream, and there isn't really another candidate.

As for SVU, I was told by several in the ODAC they wondered (maybe feared) that W&L would leave the conference if SVU were to be admitted. I don't know why that concern. I just know it to be there.

The ODAC didn't take on both schools. They looked at both and chose Ferrum.

And I think the ODAC is trying to secure it's place in what has become a very challenging and ever changing conference landscape. Remember, they sit next door (or somewhat in) a conference landscape that has been shaken up. You just don't know what pieces could move next.

[PaulNewman]

Well, maybe I get at least 2 cents of credit for reviving an old thread that now is morphing into D3 fantasy conference realignments.

In terms of CMU and NCAC, CMU and Kenyon have had a home and away series in men's soccer going for several years now....exactly 3 hours from Pittsburgh to downtown Gambier.  Chicago, CWRU and Rochester also pretty doable for most NCAC schools.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Well, maybe I get at least 2 cents of credit for reviving an old thread that now is morphing into D3 fantasy conference realignments.

In terms of CMU and NCAC, CMU and Kenyon have had a home and away series in men's soccer going for several years now....exactly 3 hours from Pittsburgh to downtown Gambier.  Chicago, CWRU and Rochester also pretty doable for most NCAC schools.

No reason for Rochester to leave the Liberty League which they basically have controlled (just look at the football challenges). And Chicago? I highly doubt the NCAC would admit Chicago, nor would Chicago want to go to the NCAC unless a lot of conferences didn't want them - which I think would be odd.

[PaulNewman]

I didn't realize W&L is so far away from Centre.  If Centennial was in play,why not W&L, Centre, Kenyon, Oberlin, DePauw, Denison, Wabash, Wooster, OWU....?

[Bishopleftiesdad]

It would be their logical place to land. The same probably goes for Carnegie Mellon as well, although the NCAC might consider Pittsburgh to be a little too far outside the league's geographical footprint.

That reminds me of a story. I was talking to a Dad at one of the OWU games. He was so excited he had heard what he thought was a juicy bit of gossip and he could not wait to share it. He had Heard CMU was joining the NCAC, and Ingles was going to come back to coaching as OWU's baseball coach. You see Ingles in all his years coaching at OWU had never beat CMU, and wanted another opportunity. He could not figure out why I was laughing so hard. I told him to go look up CMU's baseball program and get back to me. He did not talk to me the rest of the season.

Numbers would be even for Football, however not Baseball.

That's only one sport. The NCAC sponsors 23 sports, and CMU plays eighteen of them. Unless there's a rule written in the league constitution that each school has to sponsor baseball, it wouldn't be a deal-breaker for getting CMU into the league. And I can't imagine any NCAC member institution president saying no to Carnegie Mellon strictly on the basis that it would give the league uneven numbers for a specific sport out of that 23.

I completely agree. I am sure the NCAC would never say, well they do not have Baseball, so we cannot. They would make it work. It is probably easier to do it in baseball then some of the other sports.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I didn't realize W&L is so far away from Centre.  If Centennial was in play,why not W&L, Centre, Kenyon, Oberlin, DePauw, Denison, Wabash, Wooster, OWU....?

Do not follow your logic what so ever. Create a new conference?

[PaulNewman]

I didn't realize W&L is so far away from Centre.  If Centennial was in play,why not W&L, Centre, Kenyon, Oberlin, DePauw, Denison, Wabash, Wooster, OWU....?

Do not follow your logic what so ever. Create a new conference?

My bad....thought we were sort of doing fantasy conferences.

[jknezek]

There are a lot of things that get decided in DIII that don't make sense. Sometimes I have to remove that thinking to see the landscape schools are seeing. They would possibly/arguably have easier access to AQs.

Given the way W&L has dominated the ODAC I just don't see this as the reason. The only sports W&L is not consistently in the mix for an ODAC title are the two basketballs and baseball as well as softball, the only ODAC sport W&L does not sponsor. W&L has won the ODAC Commissioner's Cup Overall 22 times. The only other school to win it is Lynchburg, twice. The men have won it 18 times, the closest competitor is Lynchburg with 5. The women have won it 18 times. The only other school to win it is Roanoke with 8. The women have won it the last 15 straight years, the men 5 of the last 6 years. And W&L has taken the overall 16 straight years.

Joining the SAA would make it more difficult to win the AQ. That might be attractive, but it certainly can't be easier.

As for SVU, I was told by several in the ODAC they wondered (maybe feared) that W&L would leave the conference if SVU were to be admitted. I don't know why that concern. I just know it to be there.

The ODAC didn't take on both schools. They looked at both and chose Ferrum.

And I think the ODAC is trying to secure it's place in what has become a very challenging and ever changing conference landscape. Remember, they sit next door (or somewhat in) a conference landscape that has been shaken up. You just don't know what pieces could move next.

I get this. But the ODAC is already a massive conference. Some sports are so overstuffed we can't even have a home and home in traditional home and home sports. In other sports we don't even have a full round robin anymore.  It's a little ridiculous outside of football. Adding Ferrum as a full time member made it worse. And the ODAC did accept SVa for football. We will see what is the next domino to fall.

[Ron Boerger]

Lordy - Emory in the SAA would destroy the competitive balance of that conference.    On top of their athletic prowess, their endowment is probably a multiple of all the current schools combined. 

[Gregory Sager]

Per Rochester and the UAA and Liberty League ... take some of the info at face value.

I do NOT suggest going to the conference websites and seeing where Rochester pops up on their "standings" and such. There is a nice new "trick" with conferences that is going on. I'll use the MAC as a great example. They now have ice hockey as a sponsored sport. However, all of the MAC schools are in another ice hockey conference. The MAC hands out awards and such, but they have no AQ. However if you go on the MAC website, it will make you think it is the home for the ice hockey teams and such. It is just a backup when and if there are enough teams for an AQ.

UAA has the same in football. They don't play a conference schedule per se and they don't have an AQ. They have four teams, but that doesn't keep the UAA from showing "standings" and handing out awards.

That's exactly why I went to Rochester's website and looked at the schedules of the Yellowjackets on a sport-by-sport basis. Men's golf listed both UAA and LL tourneys on the 2018-19 sked, which is why I went to the UAA site and found that there's only four schools participating in UAA men's golf.

The best way to see how many sports a school is in a particular conference is to look at the schedules and what they mark as official conference games. Per Sager's research, I do believe you found the sports they are members in the UAA - that number was higher than the one I thought I put together. However, I would argue you could condense that technically to six (you forgot men's soccer, BTW) to being basketball, cross-country, swimming & diving, soccer, tennis, and volleyball.

I don't think that you can figuratively condense eleven sports down to six upon the premise that five of the six are parallel sports differentiated by gender for both Rochester and the UAA.  Those sports may be parallel but they're distinct, with their own coaching staffs, rosters, budgets, schedules, support staff, etc. At most you can use the parallel aspect to save some dollars on transportation on road trips (i.e., men's and women's basketball teams traveling together), but I don't see it as realistic to extrapolate that into saying that the men's basketball program and the women's basketball program are really just one big super-program.

Eleven sports is a dramatically larger presence, both from a league standpoint and an individual school standpoint, than six.

My bigger point about the UAA is when will costs become an overriding factor. I was given the example of a school (forget who) who's softball team traveled to Brandeis for a weekend series. The trip was four or five days ... they didn't play a single game. They couldn't be made up.

At some point, those costs and time away from class, especially in sports like baseball and softball, are going to become problematic in the current environment. Why would schools pay all that money and missed class time to risk not playing any games ... when they could have stayed closer to home and made it work.

Even though a lot of endowment money is specifically designated by their donors for certain things, I have a hard time believing that schools as incredibly wealthy as the UAA's view cancellations as anything other than sunk costs within the usual travel budget that's been required by UAA membership for thirty years now. Maybe I'm wrong about that; maybe the powers-that-be in UAA boardrooms are so obdurately opposed to viewing athletics as anything other than a (very) minor auxiliary of the larger university -- somewhere between an appendix and a toenail -- that they're going to insist upon nickel-and-diming it into complete irrelevance.

The missed class time is another matter. No matter how hard and how well UAA schools get around it, there's still a few formidable chunks of time spent away from campus for each team in each UAA sport.

I love the UAA and certainly wouldn't want to see it disappear, but the conversations I have had do make the landscape understandable. WashU and Chicago can easily find homes - most likely in the CCIW.

The CCIW seems likely from a travel and competition standpoint -- it would be interesting to see if the CCIW would take in a third school along with Wash U and Chicago to make it an even dozen and then go to divisions, thereby cutting down further upon travel time -- but from an academic standpoint the two UAA refugees might decide to look at the MWC instead. Chicago was a MWC member from 1976-87, and it's currently an associate member in that league for football.

Brandeis could easily join the NESCAC or NEWMAC. Emory could join the SAA (maybe entice W&L to join them). Case Western could join the NCAC or maybe the OAC. Carnegie Mellon could join the NCAC or OAC.

It'd be a cold day in hell before either CWRU or CMU chose the OAC over the NCAC. And although I can't prove it, I suspect that if the two former UAA members couldn't get into the NCAC for whatever reason, they'd probably both opt for the smaller, less athletically cutthroat PAC than for the OAC.

Rochester could go full time into the Liberty League. NYU ... not sure where they would go.

The NEWMAC, maybe? It's got kind of a catch-all vibe, and there's at least one other highly exclusive school (MIT) already in it.

I completely agree. I am sure the NCAC would never say, well they do not have Baseball, so we cannot. They would make it work. It is probably easier to do it in baseball then some of the other sports.

Seems a shame that a school located in a great baseball town like Pittsburgh doesn't offer the sport.

[Pat Coleman]

Agreed that Carnegie Mellon has an NCAC profile. Back in the day, CMU was a member of the PAC.