Slate: "Is Wesleyan Compromising ... to build an athletics cash cow?"

[jknezek]

On the contrary, W&L would LOVE to be in the UAA, but have been thwarted ... or basically ignored best I can tell. The UAA has no interest.

Never heard of this and it sounds like an awful idea to me. W&L and the UAA schools share very little. The travel would be atrocious. I suspect the UAA travel schedule only remotely works because all the schools are in major metro areas with conveniently close major airports. None of that describes Lexington VA.

I know the SAA came to W&L both pre and post formation to gauge interest. Prior to joining the ODAC, W&L was in a conference with Centre and Sewanee and W&L certainly fits better with the SAA schools than the ODAC. However, W&L supposedly didn't even give it much consideration due to travel time and costs and this was prior to the Texas contingent being invited back.

Given that info, I have a hard time believing W&L really wants in to the UAA. The only possible upside is reputation by association. Powerful in one sense, but I just don't see W&L and the UAA schools scrapping for the same kids. My sister went to Carnegie Melon but she would have hated W&L's rural and small college atmosphere. I applied and was accepted to Emory, but I had little desire to be at a large urban school having visited CMU and applying was more a parental nod at the time.

However, I'm happy to admit that Dave is tied in to the D3 scene in a way I'm not and never will be. There is a high probability his information is much better than my conjecture.

[WUPHF]

This is a bit of nitpick, but regarding the fact that UAA schools also compete in other leagues with Rochester being the prime example, to be clear, Rochester competes in the UAA in (correct me if I am wrong) basketball, volleyball, tennis, soccer, swimming and diving, cross country.

I think it is a bit misleading to refer to this as a handful of sports.

Especially since these are all the, I would argue, premier sports within the league.

I have a friend at Rochester who does not follow their varsity athletics, but he sees Rochester as a UAA school and that may be because Rochester used to host the UAA offices or still does.

As for the UAA in general, they do have one institution that is getting a new Chancellor and three others that have executives who are 70 or older.  Who knows what will happen over the next few years.  I'll be shocked if they lose a member, but who knows...

[Gregory Sager]

On the contrary, W&L would LOVE to be in the UAA, but have been thwarted ... or basically ignored best I can tell. The UAA has no interest.

Never heard of this and it sounds like an awful idea to me. W&L and the UAA schools share very little. The travel would be atrocious. I suspect the UAA travel schedule only remotely works because all the schools are in major metro areas with conveniently close major airports. None of that describes Lexington VA.

I know the SAA came to W&L both pre and post formation to gauge interest. Prior to joining the ODAC, W&L was in a conference with Centre and Sewanee and W&L certainly fits better with the SAA schools than the ODAC. However, W&L supposedly didn't even give it much consideration due to travel time and costs and this was prior to the Texas contingent being invited back.

Given that info, I have a hard time believing W&L really wants in to the UAA. The only possible upside is reputation by association. Powerful in one sense, but I just don't see W&L and the UAA schools scrapping for the same kids. My sister went to Carnegie Melon but she would have hated W&L's rural and small college atmosphere. I applied and was accepted to Emory, but I had little desire to be at a large urban school having visited CMU and applying was more a parental nod at the time.

However, I'm happy to admit that Dave is tied in to the D3 scene in a way I'm not and never will be. There is a high probability his information is much better than my conjecture.

That's kinda what I figured. I have no doubt that Dave's W&L source(s) is/are impeccable, but Washington & Lee really isn't a good fit at all for the UAA in terms of academic structure and mission. It's a highly exclusive liberal arts college, like the NESCAC schools, that has a large and well-regarded law school (and a much smaller social-sciences grad school) attached to it, making it a liberal arts university. It's not a research university, and I doubt that it will ever attempt to go in that direction, given the massive investment that it would take to transform the school into one. And, as you said, it's not in a location that is conducive to travel for other UAA schools.

The SAA would be a logical home for W&L if it wanted to deal with the extra travel, which it apparently doesn't. It's interesting how even financially well-off D3 schools that can afford the travel costs will eschew affiliation with far-flung schools that have similar profiles in favor of banding together instead with more locally-based schools that may be of a significantly different nature. Rating location more important than common profiles and missions seems to be a popular approach among D3 schools -- it's the same thing in Johns Hopkins's case, apparently, and I'm pretty sure that it's what's keeping Macalester and Carleton in the MIAC rather than returning to their old haunts in the MWC. To me, it speaks volumes about just how high a value presidents and other senior administrators place upon keeping student-athletes close enough to campus to avoid missing class time.

[jknezek]

That's kinda what I figured. I have no doubt that Dave's W&L source(s) is/are impeccable, but Washington & Lee really isn't a good fit at all for the UAA in terms of academic structure and mission. It's a highly exclusive liberal arts college, like the NESCAC schools, that has a large and well-regarded law school (and a much smaller social-sciences grad school) attached to it, making it a liberal arts university. It's not a research university, and I doubt that it will ever attempt to go in that direction, given the massive investment that it would take to transform the school into one. And, as you said, it's not in a location that is conducive to travel for other UAA schools.

The SAA would be a logical home for W&L if it wanted to deal with the extra travel, which it apparently doesn't. It's interesting how even financially well-off D3 schools that can afford the travel costs will eschew affiliation with far-flung schools that have similar profiles in favor of banding together instead with more locally-based schools that may be of a significantly different nature. Rating location more important than common profiles and missions seems to be a popular approach among D3 schools -- it's the same thing in Johns Hopkins's case, apparently, and I'm pretty sure that it's what's keeping Macalester and Carleton in the MIAC rather than returning to their old haunts in the MWC. To me, it speaks volumes about just how high a value presidents and other senior administrators place upon keeping student-athletes close enough to campus to avoid missing class time.

As far as I know, W&L has no graduate school programs beyond the law school. It is possible something has changed recently or they have some random affiliation for something else that I'm unaware of, but I don't think so.

As for the travel discussion, there is no doubt in my mind that schools should band together geographically when possible. The SAA is a nightmare. Yes, it's a better fit for W&L in mission and values, but other than the benefits to me personally of seeing W&L sports teams on a far more frequent basis at BSC, Berry, Sewanee, Ogelthorpe, and even Millsaps, it's a terrible idea to give up the easy one day bus rides of the ODAC for the nightmare flights or overnight bus rides of the SAA. To put it in perspective, only Centre is within 400 miles of Lexington VA, and that is 390+. There is not a single ODAC school more than 200 miles from W&L.

DIII presidents should be smart enough to realize that the money is far better spent in building impressive athletic facilities, which help attract student athletes to campus, versus spending money on buses and planes that just make students miss sleep, class, and practice time. W&L used to have a psuedo policy, or at least the general concept, that conference winners got big overnight athletic trips in following years when possible. This seems to have mellowed over the years and now most teams get pretty impressive OOC travel trips most years to brag about to recruits. The exception is generally football, given the scheduling challenges, but even there a home and home with CMS was a big deal a few years ago.

A local conference, with a brag worthy OOC trip, seems like a far wiser monetary and time outlay in DIII than a geographically disparate conference, even if it gets you to more similar schools. But I do admire the UAA's pursuit of common mission and value schools and the fortitude to pay for the travel schedule to make it happen. The SAA schools just tend to be screwed, in some sense, by being in low DIII density areas. So the options were limited.

[Ralph Turner]

Grad schools and PhD programs aren't that common in D-3. The UAA is an odd bird in D-3. I think most schools are where they want to be in terms of conferences and the match to the type of schools and program - or qualifying for an auto bid.

It shows elitism that association is an pretty presitgious group of schools (the AAU), and that Tufts is similar to them somehow besmirches Tufts.

My controversial opinion - the NESCAC is no better or worse for students than any other D-3 school. I know in the past I've poked fun at the OAC from an NCAC perspective, but my work at a D-2 state school that serves the underserved population kind of changed my thought process on this. Reputation means nothing if your students don't emerge as leaders and learners. I have seen the same result at CWU as I have at Wabash - it can definitely be transformative for students.

+1! 

[Gregory Sager]

This is a bit of nitpick, but regarding the fact that UAA schools also compete in other leagues with Rochester being the prime example, to be clear, Rochester competes in the UAA in (correct me if I am wrong) basketball, volleyball, tennis, soccer, swimming and diving, cross country.

I looked up the affiliations of each of Rochester's sports via their schedules. (Like a lot of schools, Rochester lists track & field as a unitary sport per gender, but it's really two -- indoor and outdoor -- since D3 holds two national meets and gives out two national titles per gender.) By my tally, Rochester's affiliation is in the UAA in ten sports (men's basketball, men's cross-country, men's swimming & diving, men's tennis, women's basketball, women's cross-country, women's soccer, women's swimming & diving, women's tennis, and women's volleyball) and in the Liberty League in twelve (baseball, football, men's golf*, squash, men's indoor track & field, men's outdoor track & field, women's field hockey, women's lacrosse, women's rowing, softball, women's indoor track & field, and women's outdoor track & field). Rochester actually competes in both the UAA and the LL in men's golf, but the UAA doesn't have an automatic bid (only four UAA schools compete in that league in men's golf), so the Yellowjackets participate in the annual Liberty League spring tournament for that league's automatic bid to the NCAA tournament.

It was an interesting and enlightening exercise. I came away with a much greater appreciation of just how involved Rochester is in the Liberty League, as well as puzzlement as to why the U of R doesn't have a men's lacrosse program in lacrosse-crazed upstate New York. I also wonder why Rochester doesn't sponsor women's golf, which is not exactly a deal-breaker in terms of budget outlay and which typically brings in student-athletes whose families have the means to pay full freight for a Rochester education.

I think it is a bit misleading to refer to this as a handful of sports.

Especially since these are all the, I would argue, premier sports within the league.

You're right. It isn't just a handful of sports. But it seems to me that Rochester is pretty deeply invested in having a Liberty League identity as well. Twelve sports is nothing to shake a stick at, either -- especially when one of the twelve is football, the largest sport on campus in terms of student-athlete numbers and typically one of the two biggest sports on any campus (if not the biggest) in terms of attendance and attention.

I have a friend at Rochester who does not follow their varsity athletics, but he sees Rochester as a UAA school and that may be because Rochester used to host the UAA offices or still does.

That's probably true, and my guess is that the U of R's administration, inasmuch as it cares to feature athletics as part of its general identity at all (as we're all aware, UAA schools don't seem to go out of their way to let the world know that they, too, have jocks), would prefer to highlight the UAA affiliation over the LL one. If you have to present an athletic identity to the world, it's much easier to do so as part of an academically prestigious peer group than as a part of some (sorry, LL fans) upstate catch-all of four-year private schools.

[Gregory Sager]

As far as I know, W&L has no graduate school programs beyond the law school. It is possible something has changed recently or they have some random affiliation for something else that I'm unaware of, but I don't think so.

I thought that the Williams School had a graduate program, but it turns out that it doesn't. My bad.

A local conference, with a brag worthy OOC trip, seems like a far wiser monetary and time outlay in DIII than a geographically disparate conference, even if it gets you to more similar schools. But I do admire the UAA's pursuit of common mission and value schools and the fortitude to pay for the travel schedule to make it happen. The SAA schools just tend to be screwed, in some sense, by being in low DIII density areas. So the options were limited.

What I respect the most about the UAA is that the league's member schools have made herculean efforts to ensure that the travel doesn't adversely affect the student-athletes in terms of their academic performance. For instance, I know that Chicago employs proctors who travel with teams and administer tests in hotel rooms when necessary, and I'm guessing that other UAA schools have similar provisions.

[Bishopleftiesdad]

If for some reason the UAA would cease to exist, I wonder if CWRU would come back to the NCAC. They were one of the founding members until they left completely for the UAA.

[Gregory Sager]

It would be their logical place to land. The same probably goes for Carnegie Mellon as well, although the NCAC might consider Pittsburgh to be a little too far outside the league's geographical footprint.

[WUPHF]

I looked up the affiliations of each of Rochester's sports via their schedules. (Like a lot of schools, Rochester lists track & field as a unitary sport per gender, but it's really two -- indoor and outdoor -- since D3 holds two national meets and gives out two national titles per gender.) By my tally, Rochester's affiliation is in the UAA in ten sports (men's basketball, men's cross-country, men's swimming & diving, men's tennis, women's basketball, women's cross-country, women's soccer, women's swimming & diving, women's tennis, and women's volleyball) and in the Liberty League in twelve (baseball, football, men's golf*, squash, men's indoor track & field, men's outdoor track & field, women's field hockey, women's lacrosse, women's rowing, softball, women's indoor track & field, and women's outdoor track & field).

Oddly, Rochester competes in the Liberty League for Men's Squash though they do not have a single Liberty League opponent on the schedule.  They will play the three other teams from the league in a championship.

I also wonder why Rochester doesn't sponsor women's golf, which is not exactly a deal-breaker in terms of budget outlay and which typically brings in student-athletes whose families have the means to pay full freight for a Rochester education.

Women's Golf is a relatively new sport for the UAA.

I would not be surprised if Rochester adds Women's Golf at some point.

[smedindy]

It would be their logical place to land. The same probably goes for Carnegie Mellon as well, although the NCAC might consider Pittsburgh to be a little too far outside the league's geographical footprint.

It's probably easier, logistically, to get to Pittsburgh for many of the NCAC members than Allegheny.

[Gregory Sager]

 I suppose that's true. Meadville's not exactly a transportation hub. And bringing in CMU alongside CWRU would keep the NCAC's numbers even.

[smedindy]

Well said, smeds. But, about that OAC thing ... does this mean that we can expect to find you tailgating at a Mount Union football game the next time you visit Ohio?

Um...unless I somehow find myself in that state for work, my only connection is a dear friend who lives near Kent. And then we'd probably tailgate wherever Wabash is playing.

And I'd rather support the downtrodden of the NCAC - I knew some folks that used to work at Muskingum. They need all the support they can get!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

--- Changing what I wrote for those who read my first version ---

Per W&L ... I do not think they are actively trying to get into the UAA. I believe it has been a thought and a dream, but they are also realistic. I don't think they feel they necessarily fit in the ODAC and it has been more of a necessity than anything else. I feel they respect the other schools in the ODAC and have done right by the conference, but they have loftier goals or loftier thoughts on their place in DIII.

I think if they could join the Centennial (they are an associate member in wrestling) they would be interested, but I don't feel the Centennial has any interest in an outlier travel wise.

I think W&L is a good fit in the SAA, but for whatever reason that hasn't come together either.

Ultimately, if W&L wanted to leave the ODAC they would ... and the only reason they haven't is they don't have a place to go. I feel they would love to be in the UAA, but also understand they don't exactly fit the mold. However, that is a place they would love to sit.

Had Southern Virginia been admitted to the ODAC, I do wonder if W&L would have left by now.

[Bishopleftiesdad]

It would be their logical place to land. The same probably goes for Carnegie Mellon as well, although the NCAC might consider Pittsburgh to be a little too far outside the league's geographical footprint.

That reminds me of a story. I was talking to a Dad at one of the OWU games. He was so excited he had heard what he thought was a juicy bit of gossip and he could not wait to share it. He had Heard CMU was joining the NCAC, and Ingles was going to come back to coaching as OWU's baseball coach. You see Ingles in all his years coaching at OWU had never beat CMU, and wanted another opportunity. He could not figure out why I was laughing so hard. I told him to go look up CMU's baseball program and get back to me. He did not talk to me the rest of the season.

Numbers would be even for Football, however not Baseball.