The Big Dance

[WUPHF]

Go to a NESCAC school and study physics and then go to a research university for the one or two year Masters in Engineering.

[MaturinNYC]

D4, or others....

How do coaches of the kinds of programs we talk about here deal with social media, D3soccer.com, etc?  Are players prohibited from posting?  I'm surprised that there aren't even a bunch of alumni chomping at the bit to post?  What is the penalty if a coach figures out a kid is posting?

I do think that players observe these boards, but why they don't post i can't say. It may be an unwritten policy - but honestly, there isn't that much upside to them if they do, and the potential pitfalls are too numerous to count (not just from coaches, but opposition and teammates, their school and NCAA, etc.). My guess is that it is largely self-policing: These guys are all about their team, and they know that their words and actions reflect on that team. The actions they put out on the field, struggling to push their program to the next level - and that's what captures our attention. But why put yourself out there with words here with the only reward being getting your individual voice heard? The risk/reward ratio is too far off i'd think.

[blooter442]

I do think that players observe these boards, but why they don't post i can't say. It may be an unwritten policy - but honestly, there isn't that much upside to them if they do, and the potential pitfalls are too numerous to count (not just from coaches, but opposition and teammates, their school and NCAA, etc.). My guess is that it is largely self-policing: These guys are all about their team, and they know that their words and actions reflect on that team. The actions they put out on the field, struggling to push their program to the next level - and that's what captures our attention. But why put yourself out there with words here with the only reward being getting your individual voice heard? The risk/reward ratio is too far off i'd think.

This makes sense. I never played -- I was just someone loosely associated with a program through my time writing for and then editing the sports section of my college newspaper -- and for the first couple years I was on here I definitely didn't want people to know who I was. I even started writing for D3soccer.com during that time but wasn't trying to have my name out there. I eventually dropped the resistance when I thought about it and figured that anyone (particularly those associated with the program who could read between the lines about my experiences around the program/in college/etc.) could figure out who I was if they tried hard enough, so I kind of just went "eh, whatever." Regardless, I can understand why players wouldn't be eager to post -- I think you're absolutely spot-on that there's much more potential downside than upside, at least when one is currently playing.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

*The elephant in the room of this whole event is the back-to-back format.  It almost guarantees that the title game is going to be more ragged than the semifinal matches.  I am waiting (but not holding my breath) for the Final Four that features Calvin, Yeshiva, and two other teams.  They would have to play the semifinals on Friday and the final on Monday, right?

Close--but no cigar. Neither team would (presumably) object to playing the semifinals on Friday afternoon (early enough to ensure that it's over well before sundown) and the final on Saturday night (well after sundown, to ensure enough time to get dressed for the game after dark). In December, that's easy to do. You give Calvin the later game on Friday and all's well.

Not as simple as you think, Falconer, for Yeshiva. They have to be done with the game, packed up, on the bus, grab food, back to their hotels, and in their rooms (basically) by sundown. Not just the game being over. They aren't allowed to eat or travel, either. This was tackled in the NCAA tournament last year when Yeshiva had a game in the first round. They played the game at 1pm (if memory serves) just to make sure they were done and in their hotels before sundown ... in March! That time frame moves up a bit in early December when the sun is setting around 5pm.

Just an aside, the day-between-games model is being reviewed and discussed at the Division III level. Several sports have expressed an interest. The challenge becomes the costs associated with such a plan (extra hotel rooms and such - including production crews that put the game on). There is also the risk a Calvin, Wheaton, etc. can't play on one of the days. Example, currently the structure is Friday/Saturday. Extend that out to Friday/Sunday ... and you risk having a Sunday problem... pushing the game(s) and costs to Monday. No one wants to play on Thursday/Saturday, though soccer could absorb it better than a lot of other sports thanks to the time off between quarters and semis. Of course, that also means teams missing pretty much the entire week from school ... and don't get me started on how presidents (especially in the NESCAC) may react to that idea. (Teams arrived as early as Wednesday, I believe, for this year's tournament.) In sports like basketball and others, moving up those dates is not really a great idea since the turn-around time is harder and shorter. The reason I bring up other sports, this is going to end up being an across-the-board decision, I suspect, to avoid sport-specific complaints or challenges. If one sport is going to have the chance to do it, all of them will be given that chance.

Interestingly enough due to Mother Nature, women's lacrosse did have an extra day built in to the schedule. The championship was at 10am on Memorial Day. I hated the time. I also couldn't tell you if we had a better game or not with the day in between.

One other note: is this for just the championship weekend or for the entire tournament? That isn't for this group to debate or decide. I know that is another question that is being debated (having talked to a few committee members and chairs in a few sports about this topic). If it is for the entire tournament, the costs are going to be very significant. If they do it for just the championship weekend, the costs might be lower, but the complaint of "fairness" is going to be raised.

This is a complicated topic and I do not have any sense at this time where it is headed. I do NOT believe it will change for next season as it is not a topic to be voted on in January at the NCAA Convention last I checked. However, it is being talked about which means it may be a topic for January 2020. DIII budgets costs and such for the next five years have been known and planned out - this would add a significant wrinkle to those budget plans.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Paul Newman you're right Tufts is as good of as school as it was 10 years ago and the running joke on campus is still that its a bunch of Brown rejects, but I think you're a little off on the engineering factor. While the school itself is more known for the majors you mentioned if a guy wants to play d3 soccer and be an engineer there aren't that many places to look. Can't go to another NESCAC so right away thats a distinguishing factor from the other conferences, you go can go to MIT but the coach there described his situation as trying to find nobel prize winners that could also play sports, so thats a rare mix.

If the MIT coach actually said that, then he's making excuses for himself. The MIT men's basketball team has won 20 games in nine of the last ten seasons, reaching the Elite Eight last season and the Final Four seven seasons ago.

And many other MIT programs including football which have been successful. This very much feels like an excuse or bad wording. I've had many interviews and conversations with the MIT MBB coach who speaks about certainly looking for different talent .. AND the fact talent is on the campus but not interested in playing (he speaks about a couple of 6-6 brothers on campus currently who played basketball but aren't interested as of yet in playing). However, he's never said he's looking for Nobel prize playing students. He talks about how there are plenty of very good academic students who also have an interest in sport and how enticing those interested in MIT and sports is more challenging, but not difficult.

Not sure why the soccer coach is saying things his counterparts in other sports (many which, as pointed out, are successful) aren't.

[MaturinNYC]

Forgive the partisan pride that is impossible to disguise, but this news is also relevant to the discussion: A Rochester Captain, Bryce Ikeda, and the starting right-back, Nik Angyal, were just named Google Cloud Academic All-Americans, and they're both engineering students. And just as a reference point, 13 of Rochester's 30 players are currently declared engineering majors, and the program has earned 17 straight USC Team Academic awards.  So i agree with others that one of the great draws of DIII soccer is that you can pursue academically-rigorous degrees while also playing high-level soccer. My son was also looking at a high-level DI program, but the coaches there were very honest that they hadn't had an engineering student on the team for a few years, citing a 40-hour/week training/team curriculum. DIII is where you can be a student athlete, and excel at both. 

Further, Nik was named the Academic All-American of the Year. And he won the NCAA Elite 90 award in Greensboro.  Kid's got a 4.0 in Chemical Engineering. (I could've majored in Basket Weaving, but no way i'd earn a 4.0 in it...).

https://uofrathletics.com/news/2018/12/4/mens-soccer-angyal-ikeda-named-google-cloud-academic-all-americans.aspx - press release of the Google Cloud Academic All-America recipients:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p61-vNgmYCs  - brief interview with Nik Angyal

[Gregory Sager]

Calvin and Messiah both have large (for undergraduate colleges) engineering programs.

I have a nephew who graduated from Calvin as an engineering major. He was very pleased with his education, and he found work right away after graduation.

[Buck O.]

*The elephant in the room of this whole event is the back-to-back format.  It almost guarantees that the title game is going to be more ragged than the semifinal matches.  I am waiting (but not holding my breath) for the Final Four that features Calvin, Yeshiva, and two other teams.  They would have to play the semifinals on Friday and the final on Monday, right?

Close--but no cigar. Neither team would (presumably) object to playing the semifinals on Friday afternoon (early enough to ensure that it's over well before sundown) and the final on Saturday night (well after sundown, to ensure enough time to get dressed for the game after dark). In December, that's easy to do. You give Calvin the later game on Friday and all's well.

Not as simple as you think, Falconer, for Yeshiva. They have to be done with the game, packed up, on the bus, grab food, back to their hotels, and in their rooms (basically) by sundown. Not just the game being over. They aren't allowed to eat or travel, either. This was tackled in the NCAA tournament last year when Yeshiva had a game in the first round. They played the game at 1pm (if memory serves) just to make sure they were done and in their hotels before sundown ... in March! That time frame moves up a bit in early December when the sun is setting around 5pm.

Just an aside, the day-between-games model is being reviewed and discussed at the Division III level. Several sports have expressed an interest. The challenge becomes the costs associated with such a plan (extra hotel rooms and such - including production crews that put the game on). There is also the risk a Calvin, Wheaton, etc. can't play on one of the days. Example, currently the structure is Friday/Saturday. Extend that out to Friday/Sunday ... and you risk having a Sunday problem... pushing the game(s) and costs to Monday. No one wants to play on Thursday/Saturday, though soccer could absorb it better than a lot of other sports thanks to the time off between quarters and semis. Of course, that also means teams missing pretty much the entire week from school ... and don't get me started on how presidents (especially in the NESCAC) may react to that idea. (Teams arrived as early as Wednesday, I believe, for this year's tournament.) In sports like basketball and others, moving up those dates is not really a great idea since the turn-around time is harder and shorter. The reason I bring up other sports, this is going to end up being an across-the-board decision, I suspect, to avoid sport-specific complaints or challenges. If one sport is going to have the chance to do it, all of them will be given that chance.

Interestingly enough due to Mother Nature, women's lacrosse did have an extra day built in to the schedule. The championship was at 10am on Memorial Day. I hated the time. I also couldn't tell you if we had a better game or not with the day in between.

One other note: is this for just the championship weekend or for the entire tournament? That isn't for this group to debate or decide. I know that is another question that is being debated (having talked to a few committee members and chairs in a few sports about this topic). If it is for the entire tournament, the costs are going to be very significant. If they do it for just the championship weekend, the costs might be lower, but the complaint of "fairness" is going to be raised.

This is a complicated topic and I do not have any sense at this time where it is headed. I do NOT believe it will change for next season as it is not a topic to be voted on in January at the NCAA Convention last I checked. However, it is being talked about which means it may be a topic for January 2020. DIII budgets costs and such for the next five years have been known and planned out - this would add a significant wrinkle to those budget plans.

How about Saturday/Monday?  It works for Calvin and any other school that can't play on Sundays, and instead of having all four teams play on a weekday, only two have to.

[Ommadawn]

Great post.  You need to take a risk to post more next year.  You seem like one of the few who has an appreciation for D3 across regions.  Are you willing to reveal your primary region of interest?

Thank you for the kind words.  New England is probably my primary region of interest, but, thanks to the Internet and a "six degrees of Kevin Bacon" approach to following college soccer, definitely wind up appreciating D3 across regions.

Is JP Dellacamera up for grabs?  Julie Foudy?  I just want to be somebody....

Sure, I'm all for self-determination!

And another kudos for one of the best single things in the tournament....the woman who called the CWRU sectional (and even considering that she was in the bag for CWRU.....she was superb.

Agreed!

[Ommadawn]

Brother, I promise you I've watched the 2014 game many times over in addition to being there.  It is crazy to think the domino effect of that game. A loss that day and I don't think Tufts wins saturday. The current Juniors and Sophomores were recruited with the promise of championships. Tufts managed to win the first two championships on the back of a couple graduation classes that bought into Shapiros vision, but the classes that had already seen the promised land are on a whole different level. No disrespect to that 2014 team which I will remember for my whole life, but we have nothing on the current and future Jumbo editions.

That would be nice for the Jumbos sake!  Games still need to be played though... Stay hungry BOS!

All this talk of 2014 reminded me of another couple of details I forgot to post about yesterday.  In mentioning alumni support at the Final Four, I should have noted that there were rumors of a sighting of Ye Olde Dragon Slayer in attendance (no word if he had his slingshot).  Also, Aroh of Tufts was spied on crutches BEFORE the Rochester game.  I wonder what would have happened to the line in Vegas if that nugget had been made public.

[PaulNewman]

D4, or others....

How do coaches of the kinds of programs we talk about here deal with social media, D3soccer.com, etc?  Are players prohibited from posting?  I'm surprised that there aren't even a bunch of alumni chomping at the bit to post?  What is the penalty if a coach figures out a kid is posting?

I do think that players observe these boards, but why they don't post i can't say. It may be an unwritten policy - but honestly, there isn't that much upside to them if they do, and the potential pitfalls are too numerous to count (not just from coaches, but opposition and teammates, their school and NCAA, etc.). My guess is that it is largely self-policing: These guys are all about their team, and they know that their words and actions reflect on that team. The actions they put out on the field, struggling to push their program to the next level - and that's what captures our attention. But why put yourself out there with words here with the only reward being getting your individual voice heard? The risk/reward ratio is too far off i'd think.

To be clear, fellow Rochester parent, I don't think current players should be posting.  I'm just surprised that all (or most) have such great restraint when they do obviously pay attention.  I think they are often more mature than us parents.  I would think there would be more after graduating, and there is a history of some dipping their toes in for a month or a season or two but very few have become "regulars."  Again, this partly may be a function of how much more adept they are at moving on with their lives....or just a necessity.  My kid is a very proud alum but med school doesn't allow a lot of free time for even catching most of the streams much less scouring this board all day.

And, please, brag away.  I'm really happy to see Rochester get some very deserved attention (not just the soccer program but also the school).

[PaulNewman]

I wonder if the prior MIT coach, now doing very well at W&L, had similar concerns as the current coach in terms of recruiting or developing/maintaining a strong program.

[PaulNewman]

While we're in bragging mode, here's a nice article on David Anderson who was just named a 2nd team AA along with Brett Lowry.  I think Buck O mentioned that Anderson used to live in the Boston area and played club for the Greater Boston Bolts.

https://www.kenyon.edu/middle-path/story/lab-leader/

[Brother Flounder]

Just watched Pardon The Interruption on ESPN and Tony Kornhiser had a shoutout to coach Josh Shapiro and Tufts for winning the championship again... way to rep D3 Soccer (and Tufts if you're a Jumbo fan)!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

*The elephant in the room of this whole event is the back-to-back format.  It almost guarantees that the title game is going to be more ragged than the semifinal matches.  I am waiting (but not holding my breath) for the Final Four that features Calvin, Yeshiva, and two other teams.  They would have to play the semifinals on Friday and the final on Monday, right?

Close--but no cigar. Neither team would (presumably) object to playing the semifinals on Friday afternoon (early enough to ensure that it's over well before sundown) and the final on Saturday night (well after sundown, to ensure enough time to get dressed for the game after dark). In December, that's easy to do. You give Calvin the later game on Friday and all's well.

Not as simple as you think, Falconer, for Yeshiva. They have to be done with the game, packed up, on the bus, grab food, back to their hotels, and in their rooms (basically) by sundown. Not just the game being over. They aren't allowed to eat or travel, either. This was tackled in the NCAA tournament last year when Yeshiva had a game in the first round. They played the game at 1pm (if memory serves) just to make sure they were done and in their hotels before sundown ... in March! That time frame moves up a bit in early December when the sun is setting around 5pm.

Just an aside, the day-between-games model is being reviewed and discussed at the Division III level. Several sports have expressed an interest. The challenge becomes the costs associated with such a plan (extra hotel rooms and such - including production crews that put the game on). There is also the risk a Calvin, Wheaton, etc. can't play on one of the days. Example, currently the structure is Friday/Saturday. Extend that out to Friday/Sunday ... and you risk having a Sunday problem... pushing the game(s) and costs to Monday. No one wants to play on Thursday/Saturday, though soccer could absorb it better than a lot of other sports thanks to the time off between quarters and semis. Of course, that also means teams missing pretty much the entire week from school ... and don't get me started on how presidents (especially in the NESCAC) may react to that idea. (Teams arrived as early as Wednesday, I believe, for this year's tournament.) In sports like basketball and others, moving up those dates is not really a great idea since the turn-around time is harder and shorter. The reason I bring up other sports, this is going to end up being an across-the-board decision, I suspect, to avoid sport-specific complaints or challenges. If one sport is going to have the chance to do it, all of them will be given that chance.

Interestingly enough due to Mother Nature, women's lacrosse did have an extra day built in to the schedule. The championship was at 10am on Memorial Day. I hated the time. I also couldn't tell you if we had a better game or not with the day in between.

One other note: is this for just the championship weekend or for the entire tournament? That isn't for this group to debate or decide. I know that is another question that is being debated (having talked to a few committee members and chairs in a few sports about this topic). If it is for the entire tournament, the costs are going to be very significant. If they do it for just the championship weekend, the costs might be lower, but the complaint of "fairness" is going to be raised.

This is a complicated topic and I do not have any sense at this time where it is headed. I do NOT believe it will change for next season as it is not a topic to be voted on in January at the NCAA Convention last I checked. However, it is being talked about which means it may be a topic for January 2020. DIII budgets costs and such for the next five years have been known and planned out - this would add a significant wrinkle to those budget plans.

How about Saturday/Monday?  It works for Calvin and any other school that can't play on Sundays, and instead of having all four teams play on a weekday, only two have to.

I think for those who want to attend the championships and other reasons ... playing a title game on Monday, other than Memorial Day (lacrosse), is not a very attractive idea. DI men's basketball does it ... but we all know the reasons for that. DI women's used to play on Sunday/Tuesday ... they abandoned that recently for Friday/Sunday.

I just don't think presidents love the idea of playing on Monday ... but that's my theory.