The Niche of the Religious-based D3 Institution

[deutschfan]

So Falconer, in five pages or less what do you attribute the dominance of religious affiliated schools in men's d3 soccer with Messiah, Calvin, OWU, and Wheaton being prime examples?

[Caz Bombers]

So Falconer, in five pages or less what do you attribute the dominance of religious affiliated schools in men's d3 soccer with Messiah, Calvin, OWU, and Wheaton being prime examples?

what were the Crusades, all the Roman wars of conquest, the Moors in Spain if not the original UEFA Champions League?

[Falconer]

So Falconer, in five pages or less what do you attribute the dominance of religious affiliated schools in men’s d3 soccer with Messiah, Calvin, OWU, and Wheaton being prime examples?

deutschfan, the topic addressed in your fascinating question has been talked about just a little, and perhaps talked around or dodged a bit more, here. I am not at all personally reluctant to discuss it, and I probably know more about most schools of that type than most posters here, but certainly this thread is not well suited to it (even though many Liberty League schools began as strongly religious places), and a separate thread on soccer and religious colleges might seem inappropriate to many people who come here (understandably) looking to talk about D3 soccer, pure and simple, and mostly not other aspects of collegiate life, even academics (except for the occasional reference, where it seems to fit). As you imply, I could give you a lot more than five pages on this, but we might get ourselves thrown out if we took this conversation very far.

At the same time, it's a valid question. I'll do my best to offer a short answer, and if others find my comments stimulating (positively or negatively), then maybe I misjudge this forum as a whole. Here goes...

Two things about your question are immediately evident to me. First, OWU is (in 2019, not 1919 or 1842, when it was founded) absolutely an outlier in your group of 4 schools. Yes, they have a very strong religious heritage, and more than many other schools with similar origins they have sought to keep a strong religious presence on campus. But, OWU today is not at all similar to the other 3 schools. If you replaced OWU with NPU (for example), you'd have a clearer question. Granted, NPU's soccer success is only pretty recent, while OWU's is longstanding, but the roots of the religious differences go way back. To understand more fully what I am getting at, consider this fact: Calvin, Wheaton, and Messiah all have strict hiring guidelines for faculty and administrators: if you're not an active, believing Christian (or even, for Calvin, a member of a very specific small set of churches), then you're not going to be offered a job. That's not true for OWU, and hasn't been true for a long time.

Second, the fact that you've formulated your question in those words, "the dominance of religious affiliated schools in men’s d3 soccer," suggests to me that you have noticed those schools in this context, whereas in some other contexts unrelated to soccer you might not have noticed them--even in areas where they might actually excel, relative to many other colleges whose primary mission is to educate undergraduates. To make my point, suppose the recent tendency for Amherst, Tufts, and other NESCAC schools to win or compete for national titles were to continue for another 20 years (I hope not, if only b/c I enjoy watching the Falcons and other schools from other places win titles). Suppose that happens. Then, your question in 20 years time would be very differently formulated, and perhaps (to take this thought experiment further for a moment) the answer would have something to do with the role of soccer at the pricey private academies that send many of their students to NESCAC colleges--places that for the most part serve an almost wholly different demographic than places like the 3 Christian colleges in your question.

So, I offered an initial response that seeks further to refine your question, rather than giving an actual answer per se. I hope that's OK, at least for now. Again, I don't know how far to try the patience of others here.

[Hopkins92]

I am not a religious person, I'll say upfront. I'm not a table pounding athiest, either. Religious discussion doesn't offend me in any way. (It's kind of like most things where you have a choice... Don't like the show, song, play, etc -- don't watch or partake. Change the channel, walk away.

I, for one, would find a deeper dive on this topic very informative.

[PaulNewman]

I am not a religious person, I'll say upfront. I'm not a table pounding athiest, either. Religious discussion doesn't offend me in any way. (It's kind of like most things where you have a choice... Don't like the show, song, play, etc -- don't watch or partake. Change the channel, walk away.

I, for one, would find a deeper dive on this topic very informative.

I'd be interested as well.  Historically at least in soccer Messiah, Calvin and Wheaton are the big 3.  I didn't realize that North Park is a deeply religious school, and then there are Hope, Gordon, and I'm sure many others.  I would guess there are some deeply religious colleges that also are really bad at soccer....just as there are some upscale New England-style academic D3s that excel with soccer and some that don't.  Some of these different types of colleges also have some fairly circumscribed recruiting pipelines (Messiah/Calvin types from deeply religious high schools, the NESCAC type kids, the NJAC kids, etc, etc).

Another fascinating topic (to me at least) is the psychological hold that our interest has on us, and how strong that hold can be over a number of years....for the Falconer types, ex-parents like myself still following far more closely than our own kids who played, current parents, parents who you can tell are on the site every day long after their own kids' seasons have ended.  I know there is at least something to how we identify with our schools and become passionate to a degree that some of our narcissistic equilibrium (or lack thereof) fluctuates with the successes and failures of our teams.  And when our teams get bounced we're wounded to some degree.  There is something very personal at stake that leads many of us to keep coming back for more.

If there is further discussion maybe we should move out of the Liberty League thread.

[Hopkins92]

I am not a religious person, I'll say upfront. I'm not a table pounding athiest, either. Religious discussion doesn't offend me in any way. (It's kind of like most things where you have a choice... Don't like the show, song, play, etc -- don't watch or partake. Change the channel, walk away.

I, for one, would find a deeper dive on this topic very informative.

I'd be interested as well.  Historically at least in soccer Messiah, Calvin and Wheaton are the big 3.  I didn't realize that North Park is a deeply religious school, and then there are Hope, Gordon, and I'm sure many others.  I would guess there are some deeply religious colleges that also are really bad at soccer....just as there are some upscale New England-style academic D3s that excel with soccer and some that don't.  Some of these different types of colleges also have some fairly circumscribed recruiting pipelines (Messiah/Calvin types from deeply religious high schools, the NESCAC type kids, the NJAC kids, etc, etc).

Another fascinating topic (to me at least) is the psychological hold that our interest has on us, and how strong that hold can be over a number of years....for the Falconer types, ex-parents like myself still following far more closely than our own kids who played, current parents, parents who you can tell are on the site every day long after their own kids' seasons have ended.  I know there is at least something to how we identify with our schools and become passionate to a degree that some of our narcissistic equilibrium (or lack thereof) fluctuates with the successes and failures of our teams.  And when our teams get bounced we're wounded to some degree.  There is something very personal at stake that leads many of us to keep coming back for more.

If there is further discussion maybe we should move out of the Liberty League thread.

Not sure how many folks here were around for the heyday of bigsoccer.com, but this place has the late-90s to early 2000s vibe of that place. Hard for "kids" today and maybe even some older folks to understand what it was like to follow and have a passion for a sport that really was seen as a niche sport with little/no coverage on TV or in the media.

D3 soccer is kind of where soccer was in general back in the 90s... Not like it's complete media blackout, but you have to dig around to find the games and coverage is often provided or augmented a great deal by amateur analysts on these boards.

[fishercats]

I agree...very interesting information for a thread of its own. I'm happy to start one.

I am not a religious person, I'll say upfront. I'm not a table pounding athiest, either. Religious discussion doesn't offend me in any way. (It's kind of like most things where you have a choice... Don't like the show, song, play, etc -- don't watch or partake. Change the channel, walk away.

I, for one, would find a deeper dive on this topic very informative.

I'd be interested as well.  Historically at least in soccer Messiah, Calvin and Wheaton are the big 3.  I didn't realize that North Park is a deeply religious school, and then there are Hope, Gordon, and I'm sure many others.  I would guess there are some deeply religious colleges that also are really bad at soccer....just as there are some upscale New England-style academic D3s that excel with soccer and some that don't.  Some of these different types of colleges also have some fairly circumscribed recruiting pipelines (Messiah/Calvin types from deeply religious high schools, the NESCAC type kids, the NJAC kids, etc, etc).

Another fascinating topic (to me at least) is the psychological hold that our interest has on us, and how strong that hold can be over a number of years....for the Falconer types, ex-parents like myself still following far more closely than our own kids who played, current parents, parents who you can tell are on the site every day long after their own kids' seasons have ended.  I know there is at least something to how we identify with our schools and become passionate to a degree that some of our narcissistic equilibrium (or lack thereof) fluctuates with the successes and failures of our teams.  And when our teams get bounced we're wounded to some degree.  There is something very personal at stake that leads many of us to keep coming back for more.

If there is further discussion maybe we should move out of the Liberty League thread.

[Michel Bernstini]

Somebody may have already mentioned this but the Messiah coach wrote a book about why they're so successful and, so to speak, faith plays no small part.

[Flying Weasel]

Somebody may have already mentioned this but the Messiah coach wrote a book about why they're so successful and, so to speak, faith plays no small part.

The book is entitled The Messiah Method: The Seven Disciplines of the Winningest College Soccer Program in America and it wasn't written by the current or former coach but by a Messiah College professor, Michael A. Zigarelli.  He later penned a related book titled Soccer Field, Mission Field: 100 Coaches Reveal How They Play for Something More.

[Falconer]

So, it looks like some folks want to talk about this topic. I appreciate the initiative taken to start a separate thread. Full story: I wasn't going to write anything else unless someone did that, and I wasn't going to start the tread myself.

In my other post, I suggested that we might get some interesting data by comparing the high schools attend by players from NESCAC schools vs players from the 3 Christian colleges named in deutschfan's original post. Certainly we could expand the pool of data, but I leave that for others if they are so inclined. Probably most people here would agree that the top 4 programs in recent years are (alphabetically) Amherst, Calvin, Messiah, and Tufts. Two NESCACs, two Christian colleges. I'l throw in Wheaton (IL), b/c undeniably their winning tradition goes back much further than any other similar school, and the have been in the Final Four as recently as 2014, when they lost to Tufts: https://www.ncaa.com/game/soccer-men/d3/2014/12/06/tufts-wheaton-il/. And, they can boast of having arguably the greatest D3 soccer teams ever, when they ran off a zillion games without a loss. I didn't take time to look up that number, but someone else will easily find it. They are also usually considered the flagship Christian college.

Here are links to each roster this season:
Messiah https://gomessiah.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster
Tufts https://gotuftsjumbos.com/sports/msoc/2019-20/roster
Amherst http://athletics.amherst.edu/sports/msoc/2019-20/roster
Wheaton https://athletics.wheaton.edu/sports/mens-soccer/roster
Calvin https://calvinknights.com/sports/msoc/2019-20/roster

You will see the occasional player from a top private school on each roster, but most of those guys are NESCAC players--tons of them, relatively. Since this isn't about any of them as individuals, I won't name the player, but it's illustrative to note that one of the better NESCAC players hails from central NJ, but his parents sent him to the oldest school in PA, Penn Charter in Philly. I know Penn Charter very well. My father and his brother went there, as day students I think since they lived in the city. I'd be very surprised if Messiah has ever had one single student from Penn Charter, though of course I don't have the raw data to prove it; certainly I can't recall any soccer players from there or a school as elite as that one.

For the moment, my point is that NESCAC and the 3 Christian colleges have very little in common, when it comes to the schools that feed their soccer programs. Not quite nothing in common--after all, Messiah SR Shay Quintin went to Milton Academy (MA), where an Amherst player also graduated. For now, that's all I have time to mention.

[blooter442]

The book is entitled The Messiah Method: The Seven Disciplines of the Winningest College Soccer Program in America and it wasn't written by the current or former coach but by a Messiah College professor, Michael A. Zigarelli.  He later penned a related book titled Soccer Field, Mission Field: 100 Coaches Reveal How They Play for Something More.

Was not aware of either book, but I bought the former on Kindle last night and I'm already halfway through (200 pages total). Really compelling read. I'm not particularly religious myself (UU) but I think there are a number of keys that are mentioned — getting the small details right, focusing on relationships, the idea of working for your teammates — that are "secular" in nature but have to be done deliberately, and Messiah has clearly figured out how to integrate all of those things into their greater mission. Additionally, the "Both-And" aspiration is something I found particularly interesting. I would highly recommend.

[Saint of Old]

I must add that there are also the "Saints" of St. Lawrence as well.

One of my memories of playing against Messiah was them playing "When the Saints Go Marching In" during our NCAA game in PA.

My other memory is the reason why Messiah has had the success it has.
It is the fact that a Messiah crowd are absolute crazy twisted fanatics in love with the game and their team.

I played @ Messiah before they won for the first time, and you wouldn't know it.
The fans were wayyyyy into it... not in a nasty way or obnoxious, but in TOTAL support and really played the role of a 12th man.

Great crowd support comes first and foremost from playing good soccer.
At the end of the day this thing we do is ENTERTAINMENT.
People want to enjoy a performance.
I think that religious affiliation and discipline it takes to live well can spill over to the game, but I think crowd passion is a very underrated part of it all as well.

[Gregory Sager]

Great crowd support comes first and foremost from playing good soccer.
At the end of the day this thing we do is ENTERTAINMENT.
People want to enjoy a performance.
I think that religious affiliation and discipline it takes to live well can spill over to the game, but I think crowd passion is a very underrated part of it all as well.

This is a very appropriate place for me to say "Amen!"

[Michel Bernstini]

http://www.christianity9to5.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/How-Excellence-Happens.pdf

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I am not sure if this was mentioned as I had to speed read so I could get back to a mountain of prep work I have for the next 10 days ... but the dominance isn't necessarily across the board. I would say some of these schools have it in particular sports, but (a) it isn't guaranteed to continue especially if coaches are changed and (b) the number of sports is dwindling.

In women's volleyball, Hope and Calvin have certainly been strong, but in the last few years other programs have caught up to them and I would argue they don't have the stranglehold they once had.

In basketball, Hope and Calvin used to always be Top 25 teams on the men's side and on the women's Top 10-15. Now on the men's side, Hope and Calvin have been occasional Top 25 squads with programs that have started to struggle to keep up with the talent across DIII. The parity in that sport is a significant factor, likely, but there have been other factors as well. On the women's side, both programs have slipped a bit thanks in part to coaching changes - though to be fair, Hope is still a darn good program who is always in consideration for a title. It is just that the power in WBB has been elsewhere primarily.

Messiah WBB have been a pretty good Top 25 team, but they haven't been a national powerhouse. Messiah MBB has it's moments, but it has been a number of years since they were in the national conversation - let along in the regional conversation (the MAC Commonwealth, though, is one of the most difficult top-to-bottom conferences in the country, the top just doesn't tend to produce a national contender in the last ten or more years).

Wheaton MBB and WBB have been strong (MBB making a miraculous run to the final four last year on the back of one unique player primarily), but neither team has really been a power either.

Off the top of my head, the "religious schools" haven't been a major factor in field hockey, either lacrosses (which are growing, of course), football, and other sports.

Per OWU - do you mean Ohio Wesleyan? I don't really consider them a "religious" school. The ones I consider are the ones we have to think whether they will play a game on Sunday (most have started to play in the post-season only). And nothing against OWU which I nearly went to myself, but I'm not sure I would put them at the top of the conversation in most sports.

In fact, when you look at departments on the whole, the NESCAC is one of the biggest powerhouses and they aren't considered "religious schools." UAA, ODAC (in a number of sports), even CCIW are not full of a lot of religious institutions that dominate.

I think because of soccer many think this is true across the board. In reality, I think there are, as the title hints at, niche situations where coaches have been able to recruit very well both taking advantage of their own (team) success and what the school offers to a young person. I think if coaches change at some of these places (Messiah being the one I am most carefully watching), they may lose that "niche" ... though one would argue Messiah has already lost that niche since they aren't necessarily dominating soccer like they used to not that long ago.

BTW - Mount Union, Mary Hardin-Baylor, and UW-Whitewater aren't exactly known as religiously strong schools in football (though, certainly UMHB has that deep-south religious aspect within the program).