2021 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective

[PaulNewman]

Not going to inquire any further in an environment that doesn't clearly embrace inquiry except to clarify that I wanted to understand how the commitment that is the most overriding one informs or doesn't inform certain practices.  I never said what he or anyone else ought to do or not do.  I said I wanted to understand what I didn't understand.

I will add that I have commented numerous times over several years about far more than Souders' coaching acumen.  I've focused mostly on his leadership, the character he exudes, the way he talks about all of his players, the way they seem to love him and are inspired to perform at a high level, the way he at least acts like he genuinely appreciates opponents, etc.  Like I said, he's among the very best in the country and Calvin has been and will continue to be one of  the premier programs in the country.

[Gregory Sager]

It's not a matter of not wanting to embrace inquiry. It's really more a matter of not wanting to waste time and energy and cause ill-will in light of the fact that you and I have very different and well-entrenched worldviews, particularly in the area of religous faith. To me, a back-and-forth that involves that sort of thing is not only the textbook definition of creating heat rather than light, it also really doesn't have anything to do with D3 soccer in an intrinsic sense ... and that's what this board is for.

I did appreciate your clarification:

except to clarify that I wanted to understand how the commitment that is the most overriding one informs or doesn't inform certain practices.

... which is fair, because I don't view this at all as an issue, and I've never known any coach at a Christian school who does. Your original inquiry was thus absolutely alien to me, which is why I expressed puzzlement.

I think that the general idea for most D3 coaches, regardless of their faith background or lack of same, is identical -- play to win, don't jeopardize the win or any future games, and, within those parameters, get as many kids on the field or on the court as possible once the outcome has been securely decided.

  I never said what he or anyone else ought to do or not do.  I said I wanted to understand what I didn't understand.

I won't pretend to speak for Souders, or Brad McCarty, or any other coach on this score, but I'll venture to guess that they just don't see it as a faith issue at all. If I had to hazard a guess, coaches at Christian schools would probably to a man (or woman) say something along the lines of, "My job is to have my team perform to the best of its ability, using the talents God gave each player, by using my experience and my expertise in this sport and the ability that God gave me to be a leader and teacher." But because the nuts and bolts of how you manage a team with regard to playing time, injuries, preparing younger players for the next step, rewarding excellent practice performances and habits, etc., and doing all that within the context of how a game is playing itself out, is a universal thing that really doesn't involve faith in any direct way, I don't see how it plays out differently for them.

Of course, if any Calvin or Messiah fan wants to chime in and insist that their coach does coach his team's games along some specific Christian model with regard to playing time that contrasts with other models of in-game lineup management, I'm certainly not going to argue with someone closer to that particular situation than I am.

I will add that I have commented numerous times over several years about far more than Souders' coaching acumen.  I've focused mostly on his leadership, the character he exudes, the way he talks about all of his players, the way they seem to love him and are inspired to perform at a high level, the way he at least acts like he genuinely appreciates opponents, etc.  Like I said, he's among the very best in the country and Calvin has been and will continue to be one of  the premier programs in the country.

I agree. I interviewed him on the air two years ago after Calvin's win over Luther in the sectional final at NPU, and I was impressed by him. Not so much by what he said -- coachspeak is coachspeak, after all -- but by what he did. He brought his family with him into the Holmgren Athletic Complex press box, and I got the distinct impression from him that he did so to let his two little daughters share the experience. Nothing about the press box at Holmgren Athletic Complex would impress most adults, and I'm well aware that a D3 soccer webstream is pretty small potatoes as far as a television production goes, sectional final or not. But the mere fact that he wanted his little girls to be a part of that, to see Dad get interviewed with cameras and microphones and a lot of important-looking adults standing around, impressed me -- not because it was an ego thing on his part, but because it was a fatherhood thing. Besides any coaching testimonials, it speaks volumes about Ryan Souders as a man.

[d3closefollower]

This is an interesting discussion - I would submit that a genuine Christian faith should absolutely impact how one coaches.  Some key tenants in Christianity are:  sacrifice, selflessness, humility, valuing all people regardless of what they can do for you, love, and the list could go on. D3 coaches modeling those behaviors would be the exception rather than the rule, and one can live by those values and still pursue winning every possible game.  Some would say that style of coaching is transformational rather than transactional, basically that the coach coaches so that his players and programs are transformed individually and collectively, versus coaching so that the players make a transaction for the coach - which would be winning.

And yes anyone could coach according to those values.  But a genuine Christian faith would value these things already, and it would be expressed in all aspects of life - including the coaching profession.

[PaulNewman]

This is an interesting discussion - I would submit that a genuine Christian faith should absolutely impact how one coaches.  Some key tenants in Christianity are:  sacrifice, selflessness, humility, valuing all people regardless of what they can do for you, love, and the list could go on. D3 coaches modeling those behaviors would be the exception rather than the rule, and one can live by those values and still pursue winning every possible game.  Some would say that style of coaching is transformational rather than transactional, basically that the coach coaches so that his players and programs are transformed individually and collectively, versus coaching so that the players make a transaction for the coach - which would be winning.

And yes anyone could coach according to those values.  But a genuine Christian faith would value these things already, and it would be expressed in all aspects of life - including the coaching profession.

Thank you.

[Gregory Sager]

This is an interesting discussion - I would submit that a genuine Christian faith should absolutely impact how one coaches.  Some key tenants in Christianity are:  sacrifice, selflessness, humility, valuing all people regardless of what they can do for you, love, and the list could go on. D3 coaches modeling those behaviors would be the exception rather than the rule, and one can live by those values and still pursue winning every possible game.  Some would say that style of coaching is transformational rather than transactional, basically that the coach coaches so that his players and programs are transformed individually and collectively, versus coaching so that the players make a transaction for the coach - which would be winning.

And yes anyone could coach according to those values.  But a genuine Christian faith would value these things already, and it would be expressed in all aspects of life - including the coaching profession.

I have no argument at all with anything that you said here, aside from the caveat that I think a Christian coach would insist that transformational coaching doesn't hinder the will to win, or the ability to win, and that it in fact might enhance the creation of a winning team culture more than a transactional coaching model would.

Just a question, though: How does what you said apply to the specific question at hand, re: substitution patterns?

[d4_Pace]

So W&L retains their top spot in the national polls and may do so for the rest of the season since i suspect they should be favored in most contest moving forward. I do think are argument can be made that the winner of Tufts-Amherst in two weeks will have a strong claim if they can both take care of business this week.

I have to say I really don't believe Trinity is the second best team in the country. My opinion on their program is largely influenced by when they came to play at Tufts and were blown out by Kenyon 4-0 in the sweet 16 despite being ranked #1 in the country at the time. Ever since then I have been suspicious of their gaudy win loss records.

[PaulNewman]

So W&L retains their top spot in the national polls and may do so for the rest of the season since i suspect they should be favored in most contest moving forward. I do think are argument can be made that the winner of Tufts-Amherst in two weeks will have a strong claim if they can both take care of business this week.

I have to say I really don't believe Trinity is the second best team in the country. My opinion on their program is largely influenced by when they came to play at Tufts and were blown out by Kenyon 4-0 in the sweet 16 despite being ranked #1 in the country at the time. Ever since then I have been suspicious of their gaudy win loss records.

Mostly agree with your sentiments.  I'm trying to recall how W&L jumped Tufts (and maybe Messiah?), including in my own fan poll.  Maybe because W&L had their one blemish right out of the gate, and maybe because the draw with Emory was with a more highly rated opponent than Tufts' draw with Colby which also occurred later.  All of the top few teams had some close calls but Tufts seemed perilously close to another blemish or two with very late 2OT GWs.  That's not to say W&L wouldn't have been challenged in a game in Waterville.  It's also true that while W&L has had what I would term a nicely competitive schedule, it hasn't been as brutal as some have faced and the Generals certainly as you suggested are not facing a NESCAC-type schedule the rest of the way.  All that said, and perhaps this is wrong, but I don't necessarily think whoever is ranked #1 at any given time is the best team....sort of like the best player in the NBA doesn't necessarily win MVP.  I will probably keep W&L at #1 until they get another blemish barring something unforeseen, but that doesn't mean I think they are the best out of the top 4.  I do think the top 4 have separated themselves in my mind but in terms of best team or odds to win the title I'd probably put W&L 4th (with Tufts, Messiah, and Amherst in some order above them).

As for Trinity, I've already said they often seem to be mildly over-ranked but in imo they are consistently a top 10 team and sometimes banging on the door of the top 5.  You may be overly influenced by that one result in Medford.  I mean, after all, give those Lords their due  .....and consider that the year before they took Amherst (eventual champion) in 2015 to the 106th minute before NPL broke through.  That was an Elite 8 game AT Amherst, and the day before Trinity had knocked off a very good Brandeis squad.  Trinity also lost in the Elite 8 round in the two previous seasons.  In 2013, they lost a tight one to nemesis Loras, and then in 2014 they finally got by Loras only to lose to Wheaton.  So they made 3 Elite 8s in a row prior to the Kenyon game. I would agree, though, that #2 at this juncture is at least a few spots too high.

Addendum:  I can vaguely recall watching the 2013 Loras vs Trinity Elite 8 game.  That was the weekend of the bitterly cold front vortex (I know the word vortex is in there somewhere) that impacted multiple sectional sites, and in addition to playing at home at the Rock Bowl there was a sense that the weather was very much an advantage for the Duhawks as the Tigers were used to milder temps.  Trinity got the first tally but fell 2-1, playing a man down for the final 23 minutes.  They also picked up another couple of reds for their troubles near or at the final whistle.

[Gregory Sager]

I have to say I really don't believe Trinity is the second best team in the country. My opinion on their program is largely influenced by when they came to play at Tufts and were blown out by Kenyon 4-0 in the sweet 16 despite being ranked #1 in the country at the time. Ever since then I have been suspicious of their gaudy win loss records.

But that was five years ago.

Of course, whether or not you have a statute of limitations concerning which games influence your opinion is entirely your business and nobody else's.

[blue_jays]

So W&L retains their top spot in the national polls and may do so for the rest of the season since i suspect they should be favored in most contest moving forward. I do think are argument can be made that the winner of Tufts-Amherst in two weeks will have a strong claim if they can both take care of business this week.

I have to say I really don't believe Trinity is the second best team in the country. My opinion on their program is largely influenced by when they came to play at Tufts and were blown out by Kenyon 4-0 in the sweet 16 despite being ranked #1 in the country at the time. Ever since then I have been suspicious of their gaudy win loss records.

The 2018 season comes to mind for me. UChicago went down to Texas in the first week of the season and should have won, but couldn't hold a two-goal lead and settled for a 3-3 tie (the game had 9 total cards handed out and it definitely got contentious).
The two sides rematched in the Sweet 16 at UChicago. Trinity came out firing and had some close calls, but once the Maroons settled into their possession game, TUT dried up offensively. That game also featured 2 highlight goals in the second half from The Great Max Lopez, and 2-0 was the final.

[d4_Pace]

Yeah I recognize that that teams performance has nothing to do with this iteration. However, I think the same factors still exist that lead to them being overrated, namely dominating what is easily the weakest region of DIII soccer. I also think they benefit from an easy run to the sweet 16 almost every year due to the dearth of west coast teams. They usually end up in a first four pod of teams that have already handily defeated in the regular season.

[PaulNewman]

D4, just curious if you felt the same way after you guys blew out Montclair 4-0 in the Elite 8.   I was at that game and iirc Tufts was up 2-0 within first 10-15 minutes.  Strange game.  Montclair seemed remarkably anemic and IDK if because seemed already out of it after 15 minutes or not, but they looked almost disinterested.  I was very surprised....I thought Tufts would win but assumed it would be competitive.

[d4_Pace]

Oh yeah I also do not see Montclair st as a legitimate national championship contender but for different reasons. I think just based on the profile of the school and the way the program is run with kids transferring in and out they always have a few individual superstars but do not play together as a team. I just think its a recipe for good teams and seasons, but it falls short when put to the test at the highest level.

That game was 3-0 within 15 minutes and completely over. I think more than anything it was a poor tactical decision. They came out in a 3-4-3 with very little cover in midfield that played right into our hands and before them could make an adjustment the game was over.

[Hopkins92]

Yeah I recognize that that teams performance has nothing to do with this iteration. However, I think the same factors still exist that lead to them being overrated, namely dominating what is easily the weakest region of DIII soccer. I also think they benefit from an easy run to the sweet 16 almost every year due to the dearth of west coast teams. They usually end up in a first four pod of teams that have already handily defeated in the regular season.

Co-sign.

[PaulNewman]

Oh yeah I also do not see Montclair st as a legitimate national championship contender but for different reasons. I think just based on the profile of the school and the way the program is run they always have a few individual superstars but do not play together as a team. I think at this level that type of team will never be capable of winning it all.

That game was 3-0 within 15 minutes and completely over. I think more than anything it was a poor tactical decision. They came out in a 3-4-3 with very little cover in midfield that played right into our hands and before them could make an adjustment the game was over.

Yup...seemed like Tufts was playing 10 v 8 in a practice scrimmage with the coach telling the 8 to not play super hard.

I'd challenge just a bit on the pod thing.  I sort of agreed with you but then I remembered that the top seeds in New England get at least easy game and sometimes two pretty easy games....like you can pencil Tufts and Amherst into the second weekend almost like they got byes.

[PaulNewman]

I don't know how I got into advocating for Trinity a bit, but even if you think their pods are soft, they often end up getting screwed to a degree like ending up in Amherst and Medford in back to back years, and especially for the second where most would have said Trinity deserved to host but the NCAA didn't want to fly 3 teams, 2 from Boston area, to San Antonio.  Kenyon's had become infected with some fungus and couldn't host, and the obvious and only choice became Medford.