Great Lakes Region Navigation Channel

[Kuiper]

P.S.  This question will expose just how unsophisticated of an observer I am, but I know there are a handful of GK experts, so what the heck.  I don't know exactly when the change happened, at least to the current extreme, but are GKs now required to do the short roll pass to a CB every single time???  It reaches a point where it just seems stubborn/obstinate, like we are not going to give in, lower ourselves, and occasionally get the ball out of one's own end to relieve a little pressure and allow the defense to catch a breath. I also do not need my 6'5 GK trying to be Neymar inside the six (or anywhere on the field).

Here is a long answer based upon what I have seen over the last couple of decades.  There has been a change in youth club soccer where at certain high-level, or aspiring high-level, teams and clubs (and even whole leagues - like MLS Next). Short balls are the primary option.  Punting has become a dying art, sometimes replaced by throws for quick distribution or putting the ball on the ground and kicking it instead, both of which are more accurate.  Long balls by the GK to relieve pressure are very rare, replaced by "pings" designed to break the first line and nicely deposit the ball off to a wingback or outside midfielder's feet.  Long goal kicks are almost forbidden, especially at the younger ages.  Mostly, these change are for an admirable reason - to prioritize development over winning.  Kids naturally panic at younger ages and boot the ball and booting the ball benefits the bigger, faster, more athletic, strikers who can outrun the defenders, so there are rewards for kicking the ball.  Coaches want to break that reward-return development cycle by forcing young players to be uncomfortable and learn to solve problems with their feet, with player movement, and by rewarding the development of technical skill.  Of course, that helps develop the technical foot skills of GKs too (who are significantly better with their feet than past keepers), but it hurts their goalkicking and punting skills.  It also hurts tactical development for all players.  This is because coaches make this a hard-and-fast rule since kids aren't really good at figuring out when it's appropriate to kick long (e.g., when you've drawn in the other team and now you've opened up space that leaves them vulnerable over the top). They tell parents that this may cost them some goals and if they don't like it they can find another team that prioritizes winning over development.  Still, sacrificing some tactical awareness for technical development might be a good tradeoff at a younger age.

Fast forward to older ages.  Most coaches don't really have hard-and-fast rules anymore, but they have primary approaches and they yell at players when they deviate from the primary approach in what the coaches consider are the "wrong" times, without much guidance about what times are right and wrong because film study is still uncommon or ineffective. Most coaches don't give praise when players do make smart adjustments (the best youth coaches at the older ages will call out "good decision" for a punt or long clearance by the GK or they will ask them after the game or at a break what they saw at the time that led them to choose that approach), leaving the player to interpret it as a hard-and-fast rule since they only get yelled at or ignored when they deviate.

In college, coaches are uber risk-averse. They only get rewarded for their record and not for the players' development and most D3 players are error-prone under pressure.  Plus, pressure is more common in college because of roster and substitution rules.  So, my observation is that there are far more coaches in the entirety of D3 who insist on long goal kicks, clearances, and punts, even when the short pass is available, then there are those who insist on always playing it short (plus, some coaches are old and still coach the way they used to play, including the "kick it to the flag" approach).  Some play short because their goalkeepers aren't good at punting/kicking it long given the youth development system.  Others play it short because center backs have gotten so dominant in the air that goal kicks are just giveaways higher up the field that often leave the defense on its heels facing waves of attacks.  Also, the new rules on being able to pass the ball to a defender in the box on goal kicks has opened up new tactical strategies that eschew long kicks. 

Regardless of the reasons, one of the tactical developments that has occurred - and Kenyon seems to have adopted it  - is that goalkeepers are taught to use their defenders as release valves as a way to prevent the other team from setting easily in one spot on the field.  It rarely involves kicking it long to the center of the field, which helps to keep the long balls away from the opponents tall center backs standing at midfield, while still keeping the short ball option to the midfielders available.  Typically, they eventually get the ball out to a right or left back or midfielders, which minimizes the cost of mistakes on short balls since the locus of play has shifted to one side of the field (reducing counter-attacking options if they lose the ball) and it unbalances the opponents by causing them to shift over.  Kenyon has a freshman left back from Los Angeles who has played most of his older youth career this way and you can see how his left foot is a real weapon on long balls, including on diagonal runs by the forwards that drag the center backs covering them out of the center and open up space for midfielders running through the center.  At the same time, he has the technical skill to play it short.  So, it creates indecision on the part of the other team. 

The GK should still play it long some of the time in this system to keep the other team off-balance, but it usually leaves the GK's defenders out of position since they routinely split out wide to receive a pass.  So, the GK often plays the ball to them since the alternative is to risk a ball being lost and coming straight back through an unprotected center.  Plus, the center back is the one moving and calling for the ball and, for most players, if you move and call for the ball, you're going to get the ball (there's probably a cognitive bias for that based on difficulty overturning the confidence/commitment of the player calling for the ball).

So, that's a way too long way of answering your question, but it offers some of the explanations for why it's occurring.

[PaulNewman]

Thx, Kuiper.  That's mostly consistent with what I thought.  My only quibble is that based on my limited sample kicking away long is not in the majority.  That may reflect the games I've found interesting enough to watch, but I believe I've seen even significantly challenged squads trying to rely on the short roll to a CB.

[Kuiper]

Thx, Kuiper.  That's mostly consistent with what I thought.  My only quibble is that based on my limited sample kicking away long is not in the majority.  That may reflect the games I've found interesting enough to watch, but I believe I've seen even significantly challenged squads trying to rely on the short roll to a CB.

I have seen plenty of long kicking (and not necessarily always by bad teams), but I also haven't seen enough teams to really know the actual percentages, so I wouldn't be surprised if you were right.  The reality is that most coaches have trouble finding higher-level club players who consistently play it long out of the back anymore.  I think there was a coach from upstate NY that Simple Coach interviewed once who was exasperated that he couldn't find a GK who could kick a long GK anymore.

[Freddyfud]

Interesting discussion and hard to argue with any of this.  Just to add the club perspective is often more than just goal kicks and extends to almost any restart such as free kicks.  I heard many coaches say "just put the ball in play" to support Kuiper's point of emphasis on problem solving.  If you think about a typical D3 90 minute game how many minutes are spent on restarts?  Goal kicks, free kicks to be placed in the box, even SC's favorite the long throw.  These minutes add up and take away from problem solving time at the club level.

Also as Kuiper mentions there is a mix of philosophy not only among coaches but the players themselves.  Ask 11 18-22 year olds the best way to solve a problem and you will get many different answers.  Even with direction from a coach.  The transition is probably more challenging for the players than we can comprehend.  Some get an early dose of this if they happen to play both club and high school.

I haven't seen as many D3 games as others here but for the ones I have I've yet to see one team completely bought into this philosophy.  (Glimpses here and there and will put Kenyon on my radar now as suggested.) When executed with success at the club level at least it is compelling but in a very subtle way. Strong midfield play can literally drive an opponent to exhaustion. It does not show up in the stats though. 

The opposite is also true.  Sprinting back from an opponent's box to defend a counter resulting in the ball rolling over the end line requires physical effort.  Two minutes later if the ensuing goal kick is launched as a 50/50 ball at best and results in the opponent regaining possession it can be mentally exhausting.

And substitution rules seem to be a variable as acknowledged by others.

[oacalum]

Midseason Region VII review and outlook time.

OAC - The usual top dogs of Ohio Northern (6-2-2) and John Carroll (6-2-2) once again are looking like strong contenders. Mount Union (6-3-1) built on the success of last year but will need results in conference play to prove themselves. Otterbein (4-3-2) with some questionable performances to start the year but have bounced back nicely to close out nonconference play. The biggest surprise is Wilmington sitting at 7-0-3, although they have had a pretty light schedule. 

NCAC - Kenyon (6-0-3) being undefeated heading into conference play with schedule they had is quite impressive. Ohio Wesleyan (5-3-1) seems to be slightly underperforming in Jay Martin's last year based on previous years but still have good results against Stevens, Calvin, Otterbein, and Mount Union. Denison (5-1-3) with a solid start to their year and should have themselves in the mix for the conference tournament. Wabash (7-2-1) and DePauw (6-2-2) both with solid records. Kenyon, OWU, and Denison should be the top 3 and I imagine Wabash and DePauw will battle for the last spot.

The HCAC, PAC, and AMCC are all the lesser discussed conferences in the region, but I'll try to give them a little love even though I'm in the dark about most of these teams.

HCAC - Hanover has usually been a strong presence in the conference in years past, but are off to a 2-5-2 start. I expect Rose-Hulman to take care of it like they have the last few years.

PAC - I expect it to be one of Franciscan, Geneva, or Grove City to win the AQ out of here, with more of a chance to Franciscan or Geneva who have both faced stiffer competition so far.

AMCC - Alfred St. seems to be the favorite. Previous years favorites of Mount Aloysius and Penn St. -Behrend don't seem to be at the level they usually are.

[PaulNewman]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HnTvkpLoiwiV8aU8A

[4KEEPSSAKE]

Looks good on you! I've been waiting for OWU to get a little love this season. They definitely earned it again on Wednesday. Now let's see what the big red can do at 1pm today...

[SimpleCoach]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HnTvkpLoiwiV8aU8A

Do I have you permission to post this picture?  Quite possibly the greatest thing I have seen...

SC.

[PaulNewman]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HnTvkpLoiwiV8aU8A

Do I have you permission to post this picture?  Quite possibly the greatest thing I have seen...

SC.

LOL....Have I ever objected to world-class (and free) advertising?

Watch to see if Bianco uses same strategy Martin brilliantly used to defeat the star pupil....keep defense very tight, allow Kenyon to have possession all day in their half, wait until Owls feel like they are progressing and pushing up, capitalize on turnovers by leaving Brooker and Guerra up high so that when OWU won the ball back those two were open in the Kenyon half with space to create and an advantage in numbers.  Just substitute Krueger and maybe one of the Kist boys up top and the Big Red will be pulling off yet another stunner in Gambier.  Also doesn't help (alert: whiny portion of the post) when your two senior AAs are sidelined.

[midwest]

Though I didn't see the match, sounds like Denison's second goal was off the counter attack, for a 2-1 win over Kenyon.

[PaulNewman]

Hopefully this will be my last post for a while if my massive support system can finally hold for once.

What a brutal week in Kenyonland...started week 56-0-4 in NCAC regular season play dating back to 2016 (2016!) when the then Lords dropped one to DePauw but went on to an Elite 8 finish and a 109th minute defeat in double OT in Medford, MA.  Welp, inside of four days in 2024 the now Owls are 56-2-4 since that DePauw match.  And it gets worse.  Fresh off of celebrating a rise to #2 in the country (which was always too high as the Owls even at full strength probably were a top 10-15 team and not top 5 despite the deceptively strong start to the campaign), again, inside of four days, the Owls now find themselves looking at a 3rd place finish in the NCAC AT BEST, and playing a NCAC semi on the road.  Going on the road isn't necessarily a negative as Kenyon lost its last two (or three?) NCAC finals at home.  They also barely (and fortunately) eked out a 3-2 win over DePauw, AT HOME, just over a week ago.  How quickly fortunes can turn.  #2 in the country a few days ago and now looking like a bubble team and/or a team that will need to win two tough games on the road to get the AQ.  Throw in injuries to the two AAs and you're in trouble.  Dujakovich should be fine, but Duratovic looks doubtful given how close we are to early November.  He tried to play yesterday, but after getting the initial assist for a 1-0 lead, he pulled up lame after 25 minutes.  I feel terrible for Duratovic as he was set to have a special senior season becoming one of the all-time leading Kenyon goal scorers, but injuries are often a major challenge for teams who at least in theory have a chance at a big run. Insult to injury was next as the replacement striker for Duratovic who had been playing well also got injured and could not return. 

Full credit to Denison.  The Big Red definitely have Kenyon's number.  Reminds me of when Kenyon was chasing OWU, pulled even, and then dominated the series for nearly a decade.  Denison is here to stay and at best Kenyon will try to keep pace over the next several years.  But if Denison has Kenyon's number, then Coach Bianco REALLY has the Owls' number.  In addition to three massive wins over Kenyon in the past three years, Bianco won a couple of huge games against Kenyon at CWRU, including a draw/5-4 PK win in a Sweet 16 match in Cleveland. 

Kenyon as they often do started out sharply, dominating the first 10-12 minutes but not scoring.  The game leveled out to the point of Kenyon going up 1-0, and especially after Duratovic was forced out (and btw he didn't really look right leading up to his exit) Denison carried more of the possession and I could tell at the half that Kenyon likely would lose or at best get a draw.  I thought Kenyon actually had a better 2nd half than the first, and despite some excellent chances they just couldn't score agaib. Dujakovich almost got one to level after Denison scored two on a gorgeous pass from one of the frosh that put Eamon right in on Prokos, the Big Red keeper, but the space was too tight to push the ball around Prokos. The first Denison goal was preventable (as the majority of goals are, including the Owls' in the 1st half).  But the second was a real killer.  Kenyon earned a very dangerous free kick after some shifty moves and footwork by Martinez, but his free kick iirc was poor and did not clear the initial defenders and 10 seconds later the ball was in the back of the Kenyon net as Denison exploited the apparent disadvantage by employing the Brooker/Guerra OWU strategy.  Somehow the Owls left Denison's most lethal threat wide open up the field with 30-40 yards of space and only one Kenyon player on that side of field as Denison walked in a goal.  Just brutal but imo reflective of the overall match and the current status of both teams.

Kenyon may be marginally more "talented" but Denison appears to be very connected as a team.  They're also more skiiled than they were in the pre-Bianco era.  I've sung his praises before but he really is excellent.  Are they too physical?  I wasn't there in person but I will say as a Kenyon fan that I thought the Owls got manhandled and punked quite a bit.  If Mavec had a logo at the center I'm sure the Big Red would have stomped on it (and maybe they did anyway).  Anyway, Bianco knows that building a top program involves winning, and the "prettiness" can wait.  In short, Kenyon looked like they wanted to win (maybe even expected to win) but Denison was determined to win.  Even being down 1-0 at the half, like I said, I already was prepared for a poor result.  The Kenyon players look like they get along fine and have a strong team spirit, but roles are still evolving and there has been a lot of trial and error.  The talent has not meshed yet.  When you have so many freshmen I'm not it's obvious about which ones to play and which ones will remain glued to the bench.  And then having your stars out is a problem of course.  My biggest gripes?  80% of the match was played in Kenyon's final third, often very close or even inside the Kenyon 18, and 60-80% of that 80% resulted from Kenyon CHOOSING to play in their own third.  I don't know if that is a lack of connectedness, arrogance, or what.  I almost lost it when one of the talented frosh who is playing heavy (too many?) minutes tried something like a Cruyff move inside their 18 and of course lost the ball.  That same player probably played at least 8-10 cheeky, blind heel passes and not a single one connected.  A handful of players kept trying to make plays in bad spots.  Imo looking for phenomenal when regular, smart, efficient plays usually carry the day.

I capped off my evening by watching Vanderbilt beat Kentucky at UK's Kroger field in a horrendously poor performance....and afterwards (like after press conferences and showers) the entire Vandy team came back out on the field to stomp on the UK logo.

And hello midwest, I know you're curious about what I might say. You seem to be far more invested and tuned in than you suggest. I'm sure you're thrilled...and rightfully so.  Congratulations!

Now back to my burgeoning pickleball career...

[midwest]

@Paul Newman, you have great insights into the game and are more than fair when it comes to Kenyon's match ups.  As a parent of a former Denison player (pre-Bianco, rough times), I realize I take a bit too much pleasure in seeing Kenyon off its stride, as that rivalry could get mean during my kid's four years. I don't follow the season anymore, but still get social media posts from Denison athletics, so I pay attention to the occasional surprise.

[Little Giant 89]

Wabash 0 - Denison 4.

They were better then we were.  Faster to the ball.  Cleaner with the touch. 

Lost a goal late in the first half on an offside call, but that would have only saved some blushes.

[PaulNewman]

A mini-addendum...

Can't believe I'm promoting Denison so much but I appreciated the deft, kind response from @midwest.

I didn't watch a minute of Denison @ Wabash today, but 4-0 is 4-0, especially given the take offered by a Little Giant legend above.

Very impressive, on short days and after a long bus ride, to beat Wabash on the historic site that was Mud Hollow Stadium (one of the great stadium names imho) in such a clear and decisive fashion.  Wabash is pretty good...something like 8-2-2 coming into the match albeit against a somewhat soft schedule.  Would have been easy for Denison to have a letdown, and now not of ton of NCAC left until the last day of regular season when Coach Martin takes his troops to Granville.  Denison has a stranglehold on the NCAC race and it's hard to see many hurdles for the Big Red until at least the NCAC tourney. 

Here's the riddle for Denison imo as they are flying higher than they have since (maybe ever?)....Seems like they are a veteran, very cohesive group and we know one of Bianco's strengths is having his team's ready to play and at or near their ceiling.  Can they ride their growing confidence and success to reach another level?  I'm personally not sure, but I am sure that Denison is a problem.

[SKUD]

Does anyone think that Adrian can get any type of result vs Calvin or Hope?

Tue 10-29 Calvin
Sat 10-26 at Hope
Wed 10-23 at Trine