2021 NCAA Tournament

[d4_Pace]

Did anyone see Redlands this weekend?   Seems they have some goal scorers but can they commit to defending? The usual problem for these West teams coming East is they are not as committed defensively as the teams in the East and Midwest.

I love this boxscore. Check out the 2nd page with the % of time in each zone. I have not seen that yet in D3.


https://redlands.prestosports.com/sports/msoc/2021-22/files/21msoc-PLU-ncaa-boxscore.pdf

Saw a little of the game against Lutheran and my main take away was how bad Lutheran was. Honestly made it hard to assess Redlands when their goals were coming off of defensive errors. Credit for punishing those mistakes and taking their chances. I think Conn is going to romp to an easy win similar to when Trinity (tx) flew out to Tufts to get stomped by kenyon.

[southsidejet]

No details about the JCU-JHopkins game so I'll add a little color since I attended. Lots of snow, especially early on. Field conditions were bad in the beginning but much better in the second half as the field staff took an extended halftime to clear them off pretty good. A few chances by both sides early, then a borderline pk call (I've seen it several times and still not totally convinced) gave JH the lead on a rebound score. JCU had a bunch of late first half chances as they pressed, but couldn't equalize. A couple of really nice saves by the JH keeper! In the second half, JCU gradually took control of the game and the momentum shifted for good. 2 goals within 5 minutes of each other midway through the half sealed the deal. Somewhat physical game, especially once the players realized the ref was not going to call much. Also a long game... original kickoff time was supposed to be 3:30 but due to the snow and field conditions (delayed start, delayed half) it didn't end until almost 6:30.

[southsidejet]

No stands and the field will be below average at best, downright bad if any inclement weather strikes.

Perfect for hosting a weekend of soccer in November then.   Thanks for the heads-up.

[PaulNewman]

Some things have to be answered.  Since I've been following Kenyon soccer in 2011 there's only been two times I've heard allegations of Kenyon being dirty or borderline-dirty.  Both times during and after Messiah games and both times when Messiah folks were freaking about the game.  That doesn't mean it's not true or that it might even be well known, but would have thought we'd catch a whiff of this from OWU, Denison, or even Tufts fans (none of whom have any love for the Lords).  The announcers this time rebounded better than last time (as was reported to me at the time).  Now, yes, they did make complaints today....BUT, they also said, BEFORE the Lords dominated the second half even more than the first, that it felt like Kenyon was up 2-0 rather than being down 1-0.  They talked about being in a state of panic and fans watching being panicked.  They said multiple times that Kenyon had dominated and deserved to win, and they repeatedly commented about Kenyon's possession, pinpoint passing both long and short, and team speed that equaled or exceeded Messiah's speed.  Was Kenyon fouling when Messiah was chasing them all over the field?  At the end, and these are legit Messiah folks, the announcers were almost apologizing for Messiah winning and admitting that on the day Kenyon was the superior team.

@Paul Newman.  Kenyon clearly deserved the game.  Soccer wise they were much better than Messiah on the day.  Ultimately soccer is a game of goals, and they came up short on that.

I will say having watched the whole game, I didn't think Kenyon was fouling or getting away with rough tackles.  I thought it was a hard fought game and if Messiah was complaining I think it more a case that they are 1. not used to be challenged in a game, and 2. were just real  uncomfortable getting into a physical battle like the one Kenyon was giving them.  Like I said, on the other side of the ball, Kenyon gave a bit of a masterclass and all Messiah could do was chase.

@SimpleCoach, much appreciated.  Mixed feelings last night and today...clearly miserable that Kenyon didn't prevail but also thrilled with and incredibly proud of how they played. We can quibble about their finishing but overall just a stellar performance on a big stage.

Your take on Kenyon evolved over the season from pretty good but unsure if in the national mix, to seeing them outplay OWU, to yesterday when you posted your notes or at least wrote them I presume before you saw any comments here.  I would encourage anyone interested to read your notes.  You have praised Messiah and their superior style of play since Day 1, so I don't think any inherent bias from you can be presumed.

Kenyon lost fair and square despite significantly outplaying Messiah.  A bitter pill to swallow but one that has to be swallowed.  The Lords didn't get robbed or jobbed or anything.  A PK where a foul looked unnecessary and a single shot on goal in 90 minutes.  Hard pill to swallow but reality.  Given that Kenyon is yet again on the outside looking in perhaps the coaching staff needs to consider what else they can do differently going forward. 

The pill I'm not going to swallow is the other ridiculous nonsense that got expressed yesterday.  If I wanted to be petty I could argue that Messiah especially at home starts games like this on 1st or 2nd base because of the Messiah mystique and substantial home advantage and support.  But, just like Tufts, they've earned that mystique over the years, and the corresponding arrogance of they are never supposed to lose ever is also very well-earned.  That said, the panic and excuses, even in a win, are an insult not just to the opponent but also to the hard-earned greatness of the Messiah program.  Just offensive...especially in the immediate aftermath of being extremely fortunate to move on.

I would give Messiah a very slight edge over W&L (who I don't know well) or CNU, but if the Falcons get through and if Tufts is sitting there, I think it is highly unlikely that Messiah can beat Tufts who is a significantly bigger, more physical, and probably overall more talented version of Kenyon.  Not sure they'd beat Conn College either and there are several teams on the other side of the bracket who can play the Falcons straight up as well (although those will whittle themselves down to one obviously).

[D3SoccerTalker]

With for sure a slight bias towards Messiah, I would let on to say that the best 4 teams still in it are Amherst, Conn, Tufts, and Messiah. However, I have not been able to watch much of U Chicago or Cortland who have been historically very talented. Obviously based upon the pods, not all of those teams can make it to the Final 4. My Final 4 prediction would probably go Tufts vs. Messiah (been waiting for this), and Amherst vs. U Chicago. Although I would not be too surprised if Conn or Cortland were able to make their way into the Final 4.

[SlideTackle]

Swat of course might not get by Stevens, but if so would be two Shin brothers going against each other.

And how did the Centennial get 5 teams?  Is the Centennial the new NESCAC or UAA?  NESCAC couldn't even get 5. 

Btw, CSO, congrats on Midd getting in.  Feel really bad for Wesleyan but both were deserving especially that too many from conference isn't capped.

PN - You asked initially how did Centennial get 5 teams and whether it's the new NESCAC or UAA.  I think the results from the first weekend confirm that your question was justified, though the Centennial is clearly not the new NESCAC.  There is no league, at least this year, that can compete for league strength with NESCAC. Centennial and UAA got beat pretty handily by NESCAC teams.  F&M did not look very competitive. NYU was absolutely spanked by Conn in the second half. Hadn't watch NYU play before but based on discussions here I thought they were a powerhouse. Sure didn't look like it yesterday. Conn just dominated them in the second half.  They put in 3 on that supposedly tremendous GK.

As Mr. Right mentioned in the NESCAC thread, the 4 NESCAC teams are 6-0-2 while giving up one goal in the first two rounds.  Only 1 of the 5 Centannial teams is left. Same on the UAA side. It's really a shame that the NESCAC didn't get the respect it deserved this year from the selection committee.  I would say Wesleyan, Williams, Bowdoin and Colby all could have had a a legitimate shot at getting into the sweet 16 this year, at least based on the teams I saw compete against the NESCAC teams this weekend.  F&M I thought would be strogner based on their rankings all year.  NYU was ranked in the coaches' poll all year and got in with a 10-5-1 record.   

I know each year there are deserving teams that are left off.  Such a shame that the NESCAC got no respect this year.

[Hopkins92]

No details about the JCU-JHopkins game so I'll add a little color since I attended. Lots of snow, especially early on. Field conditions were bad in the beginning but much better in the second half as the field staff took an extended halftime to clear them off pretty good. A few chances by both sides early, then a borderline pk call (I've seen it several times and still not totally convinced) gave JH the lead on a rebound score. JCU had a bunch of late first half chances as they pressed, but couldn't equalize. A couple of really nice saves by the JH keeper! In the second half, JCU gradually took control of the game and the momentum shifted for good. 2 goals within 5 minutes of each other midway through the half sealed the deal. Somewhat physical game, especially once the players realized the ref was not going to call much. Also a long game... original kickoff time was supposed to be 3:30 but due to the snow and field conditions (delayed start, delayed half) it didn't end until almost 6:30.

Thanks for this! I was on a flight and just caught the first 20 minutes before boarding. Pk call seemed... about right? I dunno, the conditions were so gnarly at that point, it looked like the JCU defender slide about 3 yards and took out the Hopkins player... Even unintentionally, it still took out a player in the box. But it was a very strange play. Hopkins trying to play their possession in the first half all the way at their PK spot was pretty crazy. Just lump it up  the field, man. Classic Hopkins, man. Middle of a snowstorm and you're trying to push the ball 10 yards at a time.

[rudy]

Some things have to be answered.  Since I've been following Kenyon soccer in 2011 there's only been two times I've heard allegations of Kenyon being dirty or borderline-dirty.  Both times during and after Messiah games and both times when Messiah folks were freaking about the game.  That doesn't mean it's not true or that it might even be well known, but would have thought we'd catch a whiff of this from OWU, Denison, or even Tufts fans (none of whom have any love for the Lords).  The announcers this time rebounded better than last time (as was reported to me at the time).  Now, yes, they did make complaints today....BUT, they also said, BEFORE the Lords dominated the second half even more than the first, that it felt like Kenyon was up 2-0 rather than being down 1-0.  They talked about being in a state of panic and fans watching being panicked.  They said multiple times that Kenyon had dominated and deserved to win, and they repeatedly commented about Kenyon's possession, pinpoint passing both long and short, and team speed that equaled or exceeded Messiah's speed.  Was Kenyon fouling when Messiah was chasing them all over the field?  At the end, and these are legit Messiah folks, the announcers were almost apologizing for Messiah winning and admitting that on the day Kenyon was the superior team.

@Paul Newman.  Kenyon clearly deserved the game.  Soccer wise they were much better than Messiah on the day.  Ultimately soccer is a game of goals, and they came up short on that.

I will say having watched the whole game, I didn't think Kenyon was fouling or getting away with rough tackles.  I thought it was a hard fought game and if Messiah was complaining I think it more a case that they are 1. not used to be challenged in a game, and 2. were just real  uncomfortable getting into a physical battle like the one Kenyon was giving them.  Like I said, on the other side of the ball, Kenyon gave a bit of a masterclass and all Messiah could do was chase.

@SimpleCoach, much appreciated.  Mixed feelings last night and today...clearly miserable that Kenyon didn't prevail but also thrilled with and incredibly proud of how they played. We can quibble about their finishing but overall just a stellar performance on a big stage.

Your take on Kenyon evolved over the season from pretty good but unsure if in the national mix, to seeing them outplay OWU, to yesterday when you posted your notes or at least wrote them I presume before you saw any comments here.  I would encourage anyone interested to read your notes.  You have praised Messiah and their superior style of play since Day 1, so I don't think any inherent bias from you can be presumed.

Kenyon lost fair and square despite significantly outplaying Messiah.  A bitter pill to swallow but one that has to be swallowed.  The Lords didn't get robbed or jobbed or anything.  A PK where a foul looked unnecessary and a single shot on goal in 90 minutes.  Hard pill to swallow but reality.  Given that Kenyon is yet again on the outside looking in perhaps the coaching staff needs to consider what else they can do differently going forward. 

The pill I'm not going to swallow is the other ridiculous nonsense that got expressed yesterday.  If I wanted to be petty I could argue that Messiah especially at home starts games like this on 1st or 2nd base because of the Messiah mystique and substantial home advantage and support.  But, just like Tufts, they've earned that mystique over the years, and the corresponding arrogance of they are never supposed to lose ever is also very well-earned.  That said, the panic and excuses, even in a win, are an insult not just to the opponent but also to the hard-earned greatness of the Messiah program.  Just offensive...especially in the immediate aftermath of being extremely fortunate to move on.

I would give Messiah a very slight edge over W&L (who I don't know well) or CNU, but if the Falcons get through and if Tufts is sitting there, I think it is highly unlikely that Messiah can beat Tufts who is a significantly bigger, more physical, and probably overall more talented version of Kenyon.  Not sure they'd beat Conn College either and there are several teams on the other side of the bracket who can play the Falcons straight up as well (although those will whittle themselves down to one obviously).

I would just point out that it is rare to see a messiah player complain about a non call. Throwing up hands or asking the ref why no call. Announcers and posters on message boards do not speak for the players and coaches on the team.  Fouls occur with no call in many games. Refs are not perfect.

The tough calls to take are PK calls that could have been non calls, or vice versa. I don't think that happened in the game yesterday. Messiah couple years ago had PK against them playing RPI at Amherst. Fair call and it ultimately led to OT loss. Game they should have won. Yesterday similar fate for Kenyon. Some luck is required to make it through the gauntlet to the finals. Look at teams like Calvin and Chicago who have had great teams recently but can't quite get that championship.

[southsidejet]

No details about the JCU-JHopkins game so I'll add a little color since I attended. Lots of snow, especially early on. Field conditions were bad in the beginning but much better in the second half as the field staff took an extended halftime to clear them off pretty good. A few chances by both sides early, then a borderline pk call (I've seen it several times and still not totally convinced) gave JH the lead on a rebound score. JCU had a bunch of late first half chances as they pressed, but couldn't equalize. A couple of really nice saves by the JH keeper! In the second half, JCU gradually took control of the game and the momentum shifted for good. 2 goals within 5 minutes of each other midway through the half sealed the deal. Somewhat physical game, especially once the players realized the ref was not going to call much. Also a long game... original kickoff time was supposed to be 3:30 but due to the snow and field conditions (delayed start, delayed half) it didn't end until almost 6:30.

Thanks for this! I was on a flight and just caught the first 20 minutes before boarding. Pk call seemed... about right? I dunno, the conditions were so gnarly at that point, it looked like the JCU defender slide about 3 yards and took out the Hopkins player... Even unintentionally, it still took out a player in the box. But it was a very strange play. Hopkins trying to play their possession in the first half all the way at their PK spot was pretty crazy. Just lump it up  the field, man. Classic Hopkins, man. Middle of a snowstorm and you're trying to push the ball 10 yards at a time.

Yeah I agree. Those of us watching were somewhat shocked they continued to build from the back in those conditions, even under pressure. I mean, one little slip back there...

[Hopkins92]

The risk/reward ratio is off the charts in the direction of "don't do that" in that situation. Very surprised it didn't (apparently) bite them. Anyways, I always root for the team that knocks out me team so, Go *checks JCU website* Blue Streaks? Ok. Go Blue Streaks!!

[PaulNewman]

rudy, hello again and if iirc you may have a history as both a Messiah and Kenyon parent.

I have no interest in pushing this little debate further, but you're making an observation and implying/selling that means something particular.  If Messiah players were engaging in rare behaviors for them that could be for any number of reasons. It's also very rare for Messiah to be in the position they were in. They were in a panic and had no answers. That's when human beings including players start looking externally.  Kenyon players were throwing their hands up as well on non calls.  Messiah's own PbP guys estimated the Kenyon possession advantage at 70% or more so I presume the non calls for Messiah weren't during that time.  Messiah's best spell of possession was for about 10-15 minutes after the 1st goal when the goal gave them a little breathing room and Kenyon was stunned for a bit to be down against the run of play.  And Messiah had very little possession at all for the entire 2nd half during which Messiah's own coach acknowledged that Kenyon had been the better team.

[PaulNewman]

SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion.  They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get.  Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.

[PaulNewman]

Btw, for any Kenyon fans out there, don't take this as a for sure thing, but I'm hearing that Kenyon is only losing CB Hosmer-Quint (who was outstanding) and that several of the players like Muther, Upton, etc listed as seniors preserved a year of eligibility.  I maybe didn't recall this perfectly, but I think the Messiah announcers said Muther was the best right back they had seen in at least several years.

[rudy]

rudy, hello again and if iirc you may have a history as both a Messiah and Kenyon parent.

I have no interest in pushing this little debate further, but you're making an observation and implying/selling that means something particular.  If Messiah players were engaging in rare behaviors for them that could be for any number of reasons. It's also very rare for Messiah to be in the position they were in. They were in a panic and had no answers. That's when human beings including players start looking externally.  Kenyon players were throwing their hands up as well on non calls.  Messiah's own PbP guys estimated the Kenyon possession advantage at 70% or more so I presume the non calls for Messiah weren't during that time.  Messiah's best spell of possession was for about 10-15 minutes after the 1st goal when the goal gave them a little breathing room and Kenyon was stunned for a bit to be down against the run of play.  And Messiah had very little possession at all for the entire 2nd half during which Messiah's own coach acknowledged that Kenyon had been the better team.

Hi Paul
I did not see Messiah players arguing no calls was my point. Not trying to debate whether Kenyon fouled more or harder or not. Just saying that from what I could see on video they weren't complaining.  I never said anything about Kenyon playing dirty. And yes, I had a daughter at Kenyon ..played soccer a couple years. And I had daughter play at Tufts. So I have influences from several tournament teams...ha

[blooter442]

SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion.  They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get.  Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.

Yeah, to be fair, NESCAC got five bids in 2017 and Middlebury, Bowdoin, and Conn. all got bounced in the first round games, whereas Amherst and Tufts made it to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8, respectively (and three of the four advancements with Tufts receiving a bye were shootouts). Obviously the NESCAC has advanced to the Final 4 every year since 2010 barring that year, but no conference is immune to underperforming in such a randomness-prone environment as knockout tournaments are.