2021 NCAA Tournament

[Novacat]

I wonder if there has ever been an NCAA tournament with the unusual result that we now have with this tournament.

Not a single NESCAC team was knocked out of the tournament by a non NESCAC foe.

[Gregory Sager]

Sigh.

[PaulNewman]

I wonder if there has ever been an NCAA tournament with the unusual result that we now have with this tournament.

Not a single NESCAC team was knocked out of the tournament by a non NESCAC foe.

Good catch. I don't think that means they would have won any non-conference game conceivable, but still notable and uniquely impressive.

[Novacat]

Totally agree Paul.  Mostly just a scheduling anomaly but I think also indicative of NESCAC's strength this year which I know has been discussed at nauseam.  But I do feel bad for Wesleyan who had a great year and deserved a bid.  I have not gone through all the NESCAC schedules but I do know they had some very notable out of conference victories like Hamilton over Oneata and Tufts over Brandeis/Babson/MIT and Amherst over Norwich/Stevens/St Joes.

I think it also shows that you need to test yourself during the season.  If you are W&L and in a less powerful conference, you need to find a way to get some strong out of conf games.

[PaulNewman]

Totally agree Paul.  Mostly just a scheduling anomaly but I think also indicative of NESCAC's strength this year which I know has been discussed at nauseam.  But I do feel bad for Wesleyan who had a great year and deserved a bid.  I have not gone through all the NESCAC schedules but I do know they had some very notable out of conference victories like Hamilton over Oneata and Tufts over Brandeis/Babson/MIT and Amherst over Norwich/Stevens/St Joes.

I think it also shows that you need to test yourself during the season.  If you are W&L and in a less powerful conference, you need to find a way to get some strong out of conf games.

We can agree that in any scenario the winning pct of NESCACs, particularly the top half/top 6 in any given year, would be very high versus most non-conference foes.

And yeah, W&L can't do anything about their conference but they DO schedule pretty well out of conference, as they've played CNU, Emory, Centre, Hanover, etc this year and Messiah, F&M, Brandeism Hopkins, etc in prior years. 

[camosfan]

Always thought W&L needed bigger tests before the playoffs to be considered serious contenders.

[PaulNewman]

Always thought W&L needed bigger tests before the playoffs to be considered serious contenders.

LOL. Who do you want them to play?  They've played Emory, CNU, Messiah, F&M, Hopkins, Brandeis, etc....just beat Messiah and lost in OT at the Final 4 in a game that easily could have gone either way.  They very easily could have won the whole thing.

How far do you have to get to be considered a serious contender?

[camosfan]

Don't think they played Brandeis  or FM this year, did  Emory made the playoffs? Now CNU on the other hand did a good job of playing stronger team out of their conference!

[PaulNewman]

Don't think they played Brandeis  or FM this year, did  Emory made the playoffs? Now CNU on the other hand did a good job of playing stronger team out of their conference!

Ummm....Emory not only made the tournament but hosted and were top 15 most of the year.

And are you saying you didn't consider them a serious contender?  Really?

[PaulNewman]

CNU played a great schedule...they also only had to schedule a handful or less of conference games.

W&L had very good to solid non-conference games with CNU, Emory, Mary Wash was scheduled but canceled, Centre, Hanover, and extra no-conference game with Lynchburg (all six of those NCAA teams), Oglethorpe (frequent NCAA participant)... only arguably soft game was NC Wesleyan that lost USAC final in PKs to another NCAA team Covenant.  W&L otherwise has same issue as Calvin and North Park in terms of limits caused by conference affiliation.

[PaulNewman]

Is the parade in New London today?

Gotta say I remain stunned at the deafening silence about Conn Coll winning the title as regards a large majority of frequent posters/visitors.

[Flying Weasel]

To summarize and expand on PN's defense of Washington & Lee's scheduling . . .

They have 9 regular season ODAC contests and a potential for 3 ODAC tournament games. That leaves them 8 games for non-conference play. While not as geographically isolated and limited as the Pacific Coast schools, for mid-week games they are just a little farther than most non-ODAC opponents would want to travel on a Wednesday evening.  Which is why they play back-to-back Friday/Saturday games in their non-conference schedule. But Friday is still probably not the most attractive game for teams from the Mid-Atlantic or Ohio who are typically playing a mid-week game (Tue. or Wed.) and a Saturday game. So Washington & Lee plays most of the top non-ODAC teams from their region and, as they are able, some top teams from the Mid-Atlantic/Ohio. For example, Messiah in 2015, Rowan/Oneonta/Ohio Wesleyan/Messiah in 2016, F&M in 2017 and 2018, Brandeis/Johns Hopkins in 2019. This year, 6 of their 8 scheduled non-conference opponents were NCAA Tournament participants in 2019 (the two that weren't: Emory & Lynchburg).  And as PN touched on, 5 made this year's NCAA tournament, 3 were ranked Top 25 entering the NCAA Tournament, and 5 were regionally ranked by the NCAA in the final regional rankings. All but Hanover were from their region (and Covid might have played a role here), but my guess is that Mike Singleton is constantly trying to schedule a few non-conference games with Top 25 caliber teams from the Mid-Atlantic and Ohio.

Washington & Lee played a very respectable .593 SOS and their tournament performance was on par with the other semifinalists both in the semifinals and earlier in the tournament. They were a legitimate contender.  Now I agree that more games against top level opponents would always be beneficial, especially when you play in a bloated ODAC that isn't that strong these days. But they were right there with Conn. Col. in the semifinal in a game that could have gone either way. I can't remember a Final Four in which the chances to become champions felt so nearly equal among all four of the teams as this year. They all were legitimate contenders.

While this purple patch for the NESCAC would seem to support the need to play a tougher schedule to be able to win a national title,  I would point out that (a) the UAA isn't winning national titles despite regularly having some of the national's highest SOSs, and (b) prior to the NESCAC's run, Messiah racked up 10 national titles in 13 years playing in a so-so conference and with a strength-of-schedule that often was questioned.

[PaulNewman]

Thanks, FW,  I was trying to figure out where I counted one NCAA team too many.  I was including Mary Washington because MW, UWW, CNU seemed
like a pod but of course was that crazy conference.  Anyway, MW counts a legit game W&L scheduled even though it was canceled.  Also interesting that W&L played ALL FOUR teams in the Emory pod.

Bottom line is that it's just ludicrous to suggest W&L didn't schedule well and that they weren't a serious contender.  If those four teams played again next weekend the odds for all four would be basically even.

[Novacat]

I am not suggesting that W&L was not a worthy contender, their performance speaks for itself.  However their conference is weaker than others so it puts a big onus on out of conference games.

Just a little data to consider.

Their Goals for and against in 6 out of conference games were 17-2 versus 8-1 for Amherst in 5 games and 11-3 for Conn in 5 games.

Also they played 6 games (conf and non conf) in which they won by 3+ goals versus 2 for Amherst and 2 for Conn.


While this data I am sure does not completely tell the story, its directional that their out of conference schedule appeared weaker and they had far more cupcakes.

[Flying Weasel]

I am not suggesting that W&L was not a worthy contender, their performance speaks for itself.  However their conference is weaker than others so it puts a big onus on out of conference games.

Just a little data to consider.

Their Goals for and against in 6 out of conference games were 17-2 versus 8-1 for Amherst in 5 games and 11-3 for Conn in 5 games.

Also they played 6 games (conf and non conf) in which they won by 3+ goals versus 2 for Amherst and 2 for Conn.


While this data I am sure does not completely tell the story, its directional that their out of conference schedule appeared weaker and they had far more cupcakes.

But no one suggested their schedule was as tough as Amherst's or Connecticut's.  We were responding to the statement that Washington & Lee were not serious contenders because they did not play a tougher schedule: 

Always thought W&L needed bigger tests before the playoffs to be considered serious contenders.

Our contention / rebuttal is (a) they were serious contenders and (b) they probably scheduled as tough as they were able.