2021 NCAA Tournament

[PaulNewman]

I am not suggesting that W&L was not a worthy contender, their performance speaks for itself.  However their conference is weaker than others so it puts a big onus on out of conference games.

Just a little data to consider.

Their Goals for and against in 6 out of conference games were 17-2 versus 8-1 for Amherst in 5 games and 11-3 for Conn in 5 games.

Also they played 6 games (conf and non conf) in which they won by 3+ goals versus 2 for Amherst and 2 for Conn.


While this data I am sure does not completely tell the story, its directional that their out of conference schedule appeared weaker and they had far more cupcakes.

Novacat, you've demonstrated a capacity to be reasonable, but some of you NESCAC/Tufts folks (and are these burner accounts?) just amaze me.  You had 4 of the last 8, the last 2, and have made very credible claims that you could or should have had 3 or 4 at the Final 4 and you're absolutely correct Wesleyan deserved a bid. You got another title.  95% of the board is about NESCAC.  You need more?  To quote Scott Seiss in his IKEA bit... "Where does it end, Diane??!"   And now you need to pick on W&L?  Like what is underlying this?  What is the point here?

The directional is pointing...schedule weaker and had more cupcakes?  What?  Why guess?  We literally just laid out W&L's entire out of conference schedule above...

Mary Wash -- canceled -- some good wins in Mid/South Atlantic, beat UWW, lost to CNU conference final
Emory -- NCAA pod host, few weeks ago considered one of hottest teams in the country, UAA big boy
Oglethorpe -- played one of toughest schedules in country themselves, frequent NCAA participant, won like 8 games in a row
NC Wesleyan -- give you this one although strong tradition and got to USAC final and lost in PKs to Covenant who beat Denison
Lynchburg -- NCAA team
Hanover -- NCAA team that knocked out Emory at Emory
Centre -- NCAA team and 2019 Final Four
Christopher Newport -- NCAA team and serious contender

That's it...so don't surmise...tell us where all the non-conference game cupcakes are.

W&L beat CNU and Messiah in the Sweet 16 and Elite 8...no surmising...they actually played and beat those teams.  They played Conn evenly and one could argue that they were slightly better, meaning that folks could reasonably differ. 

Now, let me give you some other names...and you tell me if there are any cupcakes...

Manhattanville, RIC, Mitchell, Salem St, Mt St Mary, Framingham St, Eastern Nazarene (do you even know where that is?), Keene St, Emerson, Clark, Fitchburg St, University of New England, Husson, Maine Maritime, Southern Maine, Thomas

And then 1st round heavyweights Rosemont, Salem St, New England College...

Enjoy your victory, your dominance and superiority.  Savor it.  Heck, some of you NESCAC folks can't even congratulate one of your own.  But don't try to diminish W&L which even being wildly conservative clearly was one of the 10 best teams in the country and most of us probably believe one of the top 5-6 teams, that reached the Final Four with very legit teams to beat to get there and with a bounce here or there could be holding the trophy right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cawa9AYdXE

[camosfan]

There is too much tension here! a lot about this great game is one opinion versus a next, Baca thought Suarez  was done, he went to Athletico and beat them twice in the same year ,leading the scoring on a title run.

[Novacat]

My point, which I tried to use actual data to back it up.....is that if you are a school like W&L in a weaker conference (that yes, produced cupcakes) than others (I did not say NESCAC) I think you need to go out of your way to schedule tougher competition out of conference (which looks like they tried but maybe failed) so you can get more battle tested.  Its an age-old strategy for basketball powerhouses like Gonzaga ( and Temple back in the 90s)who play in less competitive conferences.

In fact I actually said W&L's results speak for themselves. and in a prior thread I said how much I respected Conn's playing style and wished them well.

This is a message board where the only reason people join is to express opinions and share/learn information.  I shared both an opinion and some information... And get called out for enjoying my "superiority"...Really?

[PaulNewman]

My point, which I tried to use actual data to back it up.....is that if you are a school like W&L in a weaker conference (that yes, produced cupcakes) than others (I did not say NESCAC) I think you need to go out of your way to schedule tougher competition out of conference (which looks like they tried but maybe failed) so you can get more battle tested.  Its an age-old strategy for basketball powerhouses like Gonzaga ( and Temple back in the 90s)who play in less competitive conferences.

In fact I actually said W&L's results speak for themselves. and in a prior thread I said how much I respected Conn's playing style and wished them well.

This is a message board where the only reason people join is to express opinions and share/learn information.  I shared both an opinion and some information... And get called out for enjoying my "superiority"...Really?

You obviously can say whatever you want. But how did they "maybe fail"?  Why are you saying that?  Because they lost in OT in a national semi?

And neither one of you countered the very specific info presented to you about their non-conference schedule or how many more NCAA tourney teams you think they should have played.  And if they weren't battle tested how did they beat CNU and Messiah???  Or lose to Conn in OT.  You guys act like they got to the Final Four (which usually counts as a huge success) and lost to Conn 5-0.

[PaulNewman]

There is too much tension here! a lot about this great game is one opinion versus a next, Baca thought Suarez  was done, he went to Athletico and beat them twice in the same year ,leading the scoring on a title run.

No worries.  It's all good.  Now please pull up Lexington, VA on google maps and tell us who you would want them to play non-conference beyond FIVE NCAA tourney teams and a minimum of SEVEN legit non-conference games (out of total of EIGHT).

And given the horribly weak conference schedule how did they achieve a SOS at .593 which is virtually identical to Conn and Midd and higher than Wesleyan and Bowdoin (without the benefit of the boost of a NESCAC schedule)?

Maybe next year W&L can come to New England and take on Mitchell, Eastern Naz, Fitchburg St, and Southern Maine.

And either one of you please explain how you came to the conclusion that W&L wasn't "battle tested."  Can we conclude now that Tufts wasn't battle tested because they merely reached the Elite 8? 

[Saint of Old]

Careful boys. I got smoted a month back because I suggested that maybe the boys from Rochester who play in Yellow were maybe fortunate to get a bid.
Here is how I see it. If you can make the final4,then you can win a national championship.  I have seen teams, with my own eyes , who could  have easily lost in the semi and won the chip shutting out both teams faced in the final 4.

I recall Richard Stockton getting blanked by Wheaton 4-0 at a  final 4 and then telling everyone right after they were coming back to win it.Guess who were champs 2 years later?

Hats off to all final 4 teams, you dont get here by accident, thats for sure.
I can see CC repeating, I can also see any one of these 4 teams winning it all next season as well.

[PaulNewman]

Actually all four of the teams were quite battle tested.  Conn beat NYU and the defending champ on their own field.  Amherst has been there, went through the NESCAC and survived a Midd team that was tough as nails.  Chicago had the toughest or one of the 2-3 toughest schedules and had to get through Otterbein on the road, Calvin, and North Park.  And W&L merely had to beat an excellent CNU team followed by the ultimate gold standard in D3 history.  To beat Messiah in an Elite 8 game and have someone suggest they weren't battle tested is just beyond ludicrous.

But, after all this back and forth, we still have zero clue what prompted the comment that W&L wasn't battle tested...like we don't even know what that was supposed to mean.

[jknezek]

Well... it's been a long weekend. Twin boys 10th birthday on Friday here in AL, flew to CT first thing Saturday morning for my parents 50th anniversary, and finally got back tonight.

First off... congratulations Conn College. First National Championship and well deserved.

Second... man the Generals have had it tough the last 2 tournaments. 2 overtime losses to the eventual National Champion. Pretty clear to me a few bounces here or there and the Generals might have held that trophy. The same for Chicago and Amherst. There wasn't but a hair of difference between those teams, but the hair belongs to Conn College, so good job Camels. Super proud of the Generals for their big breakthrough season and I can't wait to see what comes next year.

Next, I've read through some of what I missed. I watched some of the other games, all of the Conn/Generals game. The announcing was fine. It was a bit more anecdotal than I prefer, I'd rather have the focus on the game 70% of the time and the anecdotes and tangential topic discussion 30%, but if it's flipped it's flipped and I thought it was ok.

The yellow card on the Generals was... regrettable for that foul, that offense, at that point in the game. Is it justifiable as either the tackle or timewasting, though I'm not sure why a ref would think a team is wasting time at that point? I think it is. Was it a good second yellow to give at that stage of a game of that importance? No. Just a bad break, but it happens. Do I think it's why the Generals lost? Not really. But you can't say absolutely either. There was space for that banger where there hadn't been much space all game, and that could have been because there were 10 on the field instead of 11.

Finally, the discussion of the Generals' schedule is ridiculous. You have to play your conference mates. The ODAC even tries to help the top teams by not having a full round robin and giving the stronger teams more of the top half of the conference. And the Generals scheduled Lynchburg twice. So they made the most they could out of the ODAC.

Then you look at the Region. In the final Regional Rankings for Region VI, which includes the Generals, they played #2 (Emory) away, #3 (CNU) in season OOC and tournament both in Lexington, #4 (Lynchburg) twice in the season, once for the conference and once OOC, #5 (Mary Washington) was scheduled but canceled for COVID, #7 (Randolph) in the ODAC tournament, and #8 (NC Wes) in OOC play. The only Region VI Regionally Ranked team the Generals didn't have on the schedule at least once is UW-Whitewater, and that's because they are in Region VI thanks to the ridiculous nature of the C2C conference.

Add Ogelthorpe, SAA runner up, Hanover Region VIII #7, and Centre, the SAA champion, and it's ridiculous to criticize the schedule for anyone who does rudimentary analysis of what is going on in the Mid-Atlantic and South. The Generals trip to Atlanta to play Ogelthorpe and Emory was farther than Conn College or Amherst travelled all season until the Final Four. So arguably, the Generals worked harder to put up a better schedule, traveled more, and took on everyone of note in their Region. That's pretty much what you are supposed to do in DIII.

Once again, congratulations to the Camels on their season and National Championship. Well done and well deserved!

[camosfan]

Well... it's been a long weekend. Twin boys 10th birthday on Friday here in AL, flew to CT first thing Saturday morning for my parents 50th anniversary, and finally got back tonight.

First off... congratulations Conn College. First National Championship and well deserved.

Second... man the Generals have had it tough the last 2 tournaments. 2 overtime losses to the eventual National Champion. Pretty clear to me a few bounces here or there and the Generals might have held that trophy. The same for Chicago and Amherst. There wasn't but a hair of difference between those teams, but the hair belongs to Conn College, so good job Camels. Super proud of the Generals for their big breakthrough season and I can't wait to see what comes next year.

Next, I've read through some of what I missed. I watched some of the other games, all of the Conn/Generals game. The announcing was fine. It was a bit more anecdotal than I prefer, I'd rather have the focus on the game 70% of the time and the anecdotes and tangential topic discussion 30%, but if it's flipped it's flipped and I thought it was ok.

The yellow card on the Generals was... regrettable for that foul, that offense, at that point in the game. Is it justifiable as either the tackle or timewasting, though I'm not sure why a ref would think a team is wasting time at that point? I think it is. Was it a good second yellow to give at that stage of a game of that importance? No. Just a bad break, but it happens. Do I think it's why the Generals lost? Not really. But you can't say absolutely either. There was space for that banger where there hadn't been much space all game, and that could have been because there were 10 on the field instead of 11.

Finally, the discussion of the Generals' schedule is ridiculous. You have to play your conference mates. The ODAC even tries to help the top teams by not having a full round robin and giving the stronger teams more of the top half of the conference. And the Generals scheduled Lynchburg twice. So they made the most they could out of the ODAC.

Then you look at the Region. In the final Regional Rankings for Region VI, which includes the Generals, they played #2 (Emory) away, #3 (CNU) in season OOC and tournament both in Lexington, #4 (Lynchburg) twice in the season, once for the conference and once OOC, #5 (Mary Washington) was scheduled but canceled for COVID, #7 (Randolph) in the ODAC tournament, and #8 (NC Wes) in OOC play. The only Region VI Regionally Ranked team the Generals didn't have on the schedule at least once is UW-Whitewater, and that's because they are in Region VI thanks to the ridiculous nature of the C2C conference.

Add Ogelthorpe, SAA runner up, Hanover Region VIII #7, and Centre, the SAA champion, and it's ridiculous to criticize the schedule for anyone who does rudimentary analysis of what is going on in the Mid-Atlantic and South. The Generals trip to Atlanta to play Ogelthorpe and Emory was farther than Conn College or Amherst travelled all season until the Final Four. So arguably, the Generals worked harder to put up a better schedule, traveled more, and took on everyone of note in their Region. That's pretty much what you are supposed to do in DIII.

Once again, congratulations to the Camels on their season and National Championship. Well done and well deserved!

CC went to Maine to play Bates and Colby!

[PaulNewman]

Here is a great win-win for everyone the first weekend NESCACs are permitted to play...

Conn goes to Ohio for OWU and Kenyon...

Tufts goes to Chicago for North Park and Chicago..

Midd heads to VA to take on CNU or Lynchburg and W&L or VA and GA to play W&L and Emory...

Amherst heads to TX and CO to play Trinity and Colorado College back to back...

Wesleyan goes to PA for Messiah and F&M...

Bowdoin goes to NY for Rochester and Oneonta...

Williams goes to MI for Calvin and Hope...

Hamilton goes to NJ for Rowan and Montclair..

Colby goes to CA for C-M-S and Redlands...

Bates goes to NY to play Vassar and RPI...

Trinity goes to PA for Gettysburg and MD for Hopkins...

And please, don't need to hear reasons why NESCACs can't travel....all of them got plenty of money and totally reasonably every other year or every third year.

[PaulNewman]

Well... it's been a long weekend. Twin boys 10th birthday on Friday here in AL, flew to CT first thing Saturday morning for my parents 50th anniversary, and finally got back tonight.

First off... congratulations Conn College. First National Championship and well deserved.

Second... man the Generals have had it tough the last 2 tournaments. 2 overtime losses to the eventual National Champion. Pretty clear to me a few bounces here or there and the Generals might have held that trophy. The same for Chicago and Amherst. There wasn't but a hair of difference between those teams, but the hair belongs to Conn College, so good job Camels. Super proud of the Generals for their big breakthrough season and I can't wait to see what comes next year.

Next, I've read through some of what I missed. I watched some of the other games, all of the Conn/Generals game. The announcing was fine. It was a bit more anecdotal than I prefer, I'd rather have the focus on the game 70% of the time and the anecdotes and tangential topic discussion 30%, but if it's flipped it's flipped and I thought it was ok.

The yellow card on the Generals was... regrettable for that foul, that offense, at that point in the game. Is it justifiable as either the tackle or timewasting, though I'm not sure why a ref would think a team is wasting time at that point? I think it is. Was it a good second yellow to give at that stage of a game of that importance? No. Just a bad break, but it happens. Do I think it's why the Generals lost? Not really. But you can't say absolutely either. There was space for that banger where there hadn't been much space all game, and that could have been because there were 10 on the field instead of 11.

Finally, the discussion of the Generals' schedule is ridiculous. You have to play your conference mates. The ODAC even tries to help the top teams by not having a full round robin and giving the stronger teams more of the top half of the conference. And the Generals scheduled Lynchburg twice. So they made the most they could out of the ODAC.

Then you look at the Region. In the final Regional Rankings for Region VI, which includes the Generals, they played #2 (Emory) away, #3 (CNU) in season OOC and tournament both in Lexington, #4 (Lynchburg) twice in the season, once for the conference and once OOC, #5 (Mary Washington) was scheduled but canceled for COVID, #7 (Randolph) in the ODAC tournament, and #8 (NC Wes) in OOC play. The only Region VI Regionally Ranked team the Generals didn't have on the schedule at least once is UW-Whitewater, and that's because they are in Region VI thanks to the ridiculous nature of the C2C conference.

Add Ogelthorpe, SAA runner up, Hanover Region VIII #7, and Centre, the SAA champion, and it's ridiculous to criticize the schedule for anyone who does rudimentary analysis of what is going on in the Mid-Atlantic and South. The Generals trip to Atlanta to play Ogelthorpe and Emory was farther than Conn College or Amherst travelled all season until the Final Four. So arguably, the Generals worked harder to put up a better schedule, traveled more, and took on everyone of note in their Region. That's pretty much what you are supposed to do in DIII.

Once again, congratulations to the Camels on their season and National Championship. Well done and well deserved!

CC went to Maine to play Bates and Colby!

W&L traveled to Boston a few years ago.  No reason that can't be reciprocated by a couple of NESCACs.

[jknezek]

Well... it's been a long weekend. Twin boys 10th birthday on Friday here in AL, flew to CT first thing Saturday morning for my parents 50th anniversary, and finally got back tonight.

First off... congratulations Conn College. First National Championship and well deserved.

Second... man the Generals have had it tough the last 2 tournaments. 2 overtime losses to the eventual National Champion. Pretty clear to me a few bounces here or there and the Generals might have held that trophy. The same for Chicago and Amherst. There wasn't but a hair of difference between those teams, but the hair belongs to Conn College, so good job Camels. Super proud of the Generals for their big breakthrough season and I can't wait to see what comes next year.

Next, I've read through some of what I missed. I watched some of the other games, all of the Conn/Generals game. The announcing was fine. It was a bit more anecdotal than I prefer, I'd rather have the focus on the game 70% of the time and the anecdotes and tangential topic discussion 30%, but if it's flipped it's flipped and I thought it was ok.

The yellow card on the Generals was... regrettable for that foul, that offense, at that point in the game. Is it justifiable as either the tackle or timewasting, though I'm not sure why a ref would think a team is wasting time at that point? I think it is. Was it a good second yellow to give at that stage of a game of that importance? No. Just a bad break, but it happens. Do I think it's why the Generals lost? Not really. But you can't say absolutely either. There was space for that banger where there hadn't been much space all game, and that could have been because there were 10 on the field instead of 11.

Finally, the discussion of the Generals' schedule is ridiculous. You have to play your conference mates. The ODAC even tries to help the top teams by not having a full round robin and giving the stronger teams more of the top half of the conference. And the Generals scheduled Lynchburg twice. So they made the most they could out of the ODAC.

Then you look at the Region. In the final Regional Rankings for Region VI, which includes the Generals, they played #2 (Emory) away, #3 (CNU) in season OOC and tournament both in Lexington, #4 (Lynchburg) twice in the season, once for the conference and once OOC, #5 (Mary Washington) was scheduled but canceled for COVID, #7 (Randolph) in the ODAC tournament, and #8 (NC Wes) in OOC play. The only Region VI Regionally Ranked team the Generals didn't have on the schedule at least once is UW-Whitewater, and that's because they are in Region VI thanks to the ridiculous nature of the C2C conference.

Add Ogelthorpe, SAA runner up, Hanover Region VIII #7, and Centre, the SAA champion, and it's ridiculous to criticize the schedule for anyone who does rudimentary analysis of what is going on in the Mid-Atlantic and South. The Generals trip to Atlanta to play Ogelthorpe and Emory was farther than Conn College or Amherst travelled all season until the Final Four. So arguably, the Generals worked harder to put up a better schedule, traveled more, and took on everyone of note in their Region. That's pretty much what you are supposed to do in DIII.

Once again, congratulations to the Camels on their season and National Championship. Well done and well deserved!

CC went to Maine to play Bates and Colby!

I don't know where you live... but Conn College to Bates is a whopping 239 miles. Colby is a whopping 282. Generals to Emory is 472 miles...  It's a darn big country when you leave New England.

[Gregory Sager]

CC went to Maine to play Bates and Colby!

Conn College to Bates = 4 hours
Conn College to Colby = 4 1/2 hours
W&L to Atlanta (Oglethorpe & Emory) = 7 1/2 hours

[Gregory Sager]

Hmmm. Great minds think alike.

[Gregory Sager]

Here is a great win-win for everyone the first weekend NESCACs are permitted to play...

Tufts goes to Chicago for North Park and Chicago..

I'd circle the date twice on my calendar, in red pen, if I had the chance to call a Tufts @ North Park game.

And I'm 100% certain that NPU head coach Kris Grahn would juggle his schedule as much as necessary to make it happen, on whichever date Tufts chose.