2022 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective

[PaulNewman]

Yeah, for me, I think you have to factor in level of competition to some degree.  Last year I chafed at Chicago maintaining a fairly high ranking with 5 losses but I later accepted the reasoning.  Also some of these top teams have been playing each other.  Like as much as I love the Eau Claire story I can't put them ahead of Conn or Tufts or maybe even Montclair, Rowan, Cortland, etc.  I wouldn't have dinged Conn much for the draw with Tufts but I will a bit for the home Bowdoin loss, and the latter may well keep Conn out of my top 10-12 and I'm guessing mid to late teens for the NESCAC group.

I will repeat that imo Messiah, North Park, and Chicago are the clear top 3 at the moment.  The next group for me like Calvin, Kenyon, W&L, Hopkins, Oneonta, along with the NESCAC group, to varying degrees have not looked great but I do think most will be there in the end.  I also will rate teams like Stevens and Pac Lutheran (assuming the Lutes handle Willamette today) highly, but I can't quite pull the trigger on bumping them up (yet) beyond the 8-12 range.

Respectfully, feels to me that NESCAC is not being given its due.  As some have mentioned, Conn brings back pretty much the same team from last year and by the looks of their roster filled up with a bunch of talent.  It's quite a rare occurrence for an out of conference team to get a W against a NESCAC team and come the tournament the NESCAC teams have dominated the last several years - three out of the four NESCAC teams that got invited made the final 8 last year.  Wesleyan just beat Brandeis 3-0 and Hamilton beat Ithaca College (not having a good year) 3-0.  To me it seems that NESCAC is just getting stronger with better talent, resulting in more parity. Something to consider is that several teams have very strong 5th year seniors in addition to the 4 recruiting classes that came after them.  More talent.  Same for other schools but that is my guess for why more parity this year, which is still fairly young.

Not sure where you're getting that from.  In general there is continual gushing over NESCAC.  You quoted me so don't know if you're suggesting I've been disrespectful.. At the outset of season I said four NESCACs should be in the top 10, and I just submitted my ballot for the fan poll last night and had SIX NESCACs in my top 19.  Probably could have added a 7th but that did seem over the top.

Should not have quoted you.  Generally speaking that's the feeling I got over the past couple of years.  I'm guessing I'm still sore from last year's denial of a birth for Wesleyan, which obviously has nothing to do with you.

Yup, see addendum above....and I strongly agreed last year that Wesleyan deserved a bid.

[Kuiper]

Yeah, for me, I think you have to factor in level of competition to some degree.  Last year I chafed at Chicago maintaining a fairly high ranking with 5 losses but I later accepted the reasoning.  Also some of these top teams have been playing each other.  Like as much as I love the Eau Claire story I can't put them ahead of Conn or Tufts or maybe even Montclair, Rowan, Cortland, etc.  I wouldn't have dinged Conn much for the draw with Tufts but I will a bit for the home Bowdoin loss, and the latter may well keep Conn out of my top 10-12 and I'm guessing mid to late teens for the NESCAC group.

I will repeat that imo Messiah, North Park, and Chicago are the clear top 3 at the moment.  The next group for me like Calvin, Kenyon, W&L, Hopkins, Oneonta, along with the NESCAC group, to varying degrees have not looked great but I do think most will be there in the end.  I also will rate teams like Stevens and Pac Lutheran (assuming the Lutes handle Willamette today) highly, but I can't quite pull the trigger on bumping them up (yet) beyond the 8-12 range.

Respectfully, feels to me that NESCAC is not being given its due.  As some have mentioned, Conn brings back pretty much the same team from last year and by the looks of their roster filled up with a bunch of talent.  It's quite a rare occurrence for an out of conference team to get a W against a NESCAC team and come the tournament the NESCAC teams have dominated the last several years - three out of the four NESCAC teams that got invited made the final 8 last year.  Wesleyan just beat Brandeis 3-0 and Hamilton beat Ithaca College (not having a good year) 3-0.  To me it seems that NESCAC is just getting stronger with better talent, resulting in more parity. Something to consider is that several teams have very strong 5th year seniors in addition to the 4 recruiting classes that came after them.  More talent.  Same for other schools but that is my guess for why more parity this year, which is still fairly young.

The thing about NESCAC is that they can get away with playing fairly pedestrian non-conference schedules.  Wesleyan- Brandeis might have been the most notable non-conference game and there are a lot of games against teams that will do nothing for strength of schedule.  That's because the NESCAC schools can accumulate strength-of-schedule in conference, presumably based on past results and reputation of the teams in the conference.  In other conferences, the non-conference results basically seal a team's fate if they don't win their conferences, but in NESCAC they can start a little slower and still be in contention by season's end.  It also means that for at least the first couple of weeks of the season, the focus is going to be on the battles between traditional national teams in other conferences rather than on the NESCAC teams.  I don't think it's disrespect; rather, it's the recognition that the NESCAC race is just getting started.

[Gregory Sager]

^ This, precisely.

The notion that the NESCAC isn't given its due around here borders upon absurdity. Anyone and everyone who follows D3 men's soccer knows that the NESCAC is the premier circuit in the country, with both the overall tournament performance and the hardware over the past decade to back that up. That truth is clearly reflected in the posts on this board. But, as Kuiper said, right now the tenor of conversation reflects the fact that most of the interesting non-conference action is taking place elsewhere.

[SlideTackle]

Yeah, for me, I think you have to factor in level of competition to some degree.  Last year I chafed at Chicago maintaining a fairly high ranking with 5 losses but I later accepted the reasoning.  Also some of these top teams have been playing each other.  Like as much as I love the Eau Claire story I can't put them ahead of Conn or Tufts or maybe even Montclair, Rowan, Cortland, etc.  I wouldn't have dinged Conn much for the draw with Tufts but I will a bit for the home Bowdoin loss, and the latter may well keep Conn out of my top 10-12 and I'm guessing mid to late teens for the NESCAC group.

I will repeat that imo Messiah, North Park, and Chicago are the clear top 3 at the moment.  The next group for me like Calvin, Kenyon, W&L, Hopkins, Oneonta, along with the NESCAC group, to varying degrees have not looked great but I do think most will be there in the end.  I also will rate teams like Stevens and Pac Lutheran (assuming the Lutes handle Willamette today) highly, but I can't quite pull the trigger on bumping them up (yet) beyond the 8-12 range.

Respectfully, feels to me that NESCAC is not being given its due.  As some have mentioned, Conn brings back pretty much the same team from last year and by the looks of their roster filled up with a bunch of talent.  It's quite a rare occurrence for an out of conference team to get a W against a NESCAC team and come the tournament the NESCAC teams have dominated the last several years - three out of the four NESCAC teams that got invited made the final 8 last year.  Wesleyan just beat Brandeis 3-0 and Hamilton beat Ithaca College (not having a good year) 3-0.  To me it seems that NESCAC is just getting stronger with better talent, resulting in more parity. Something to consider is that several teams have very strong 5th year seniors in addition to the 4 recruiting classes that came after them.  More talent.  Same for other schools but that is my guess for why more parity this year, which is still fairly young.

The thing about NESCAC is that they can get away with playing fairly pedestrian non-conference schedules.  Wesleyan- Brandeis might have been the most notable non-conference game and there are a lot of games against teams that will do nothing for strength of schedule.  That's because the NESCAC schools can accumulate strength-of-schedule in conference, presumably based on past results and reputation of the teams in the conference.  In other conferences, the non-conference results basically seal a team's fate if they don't win their conferences, but in NESCAC they can start a little slower and still be in contention by season's end.  It also means that for at least the first couple of weeks of the season, the focus is going to be on the battles between traditional national teams in other conferences rather than on the NESCAC teams.  I don't think it's disrespect; rather, it's the recognition that the NESCAC race is just getting started.

Fair enough and appreciate your perspective.  Makes sense. 

[PaulNewman]

A true NESCAC expert should chime in but I think there are a number of points about NESCAC non-conference scheduling.

Some will immediately cite the week later season start which has been noted in discussions about why these teams don't do bigger intersectional games or invite more intersectional teams to come to them.  For instance, Denison came and played Springfield and Brandeis.  Could Denison have gotten a game with a NESCAC?  IDK, or maybe a team like Denison couldn't make a New England trip the 2nd week of their season to fit with first week of NESCAC.

In addition to the later start NESCACs also play less total games.

Another thing is NESCAC having 11 members, so that's already 10 tough to very tough games (maybe some years at least 8-9 tough games).  Babson for instance only has to schedule 7 conference games which leaves a lot of room and to Babson's credit they went to Jersey for two games and very ambitiously scheduled Brandeis, Williams, Amherst, Tufts, and Conn Coll.  That's a monster schedule but the NEWMAC also seems to be down some.  Like Tufts' first game was MIT, and usually in recent years that would have been considered strong scheduling at least locally.

As Kuiper suggested, many of these NESCACs don't need huge non-conference games because they already will enjoy some of the highest SoSs nationally so they are protected there. 

Another thing is geography...the Maine schools are at a real disadvantage although I would argue they could at play Brandeis, Babson, Wheaton, etc but there's only so many NESCACs that a Babson, Brandeis, or WPI can play in one season.  I don't think geography is a great excuse for the other NESCACs, however.  The three Connecticut schools could play NYU and Jersey teams and also probably some eastern NY State teams.  Hamilton has plenty of teams to play.  Williams and Amherst could, and sometimes do, play Skidmore, Vassar, RPI, and maybe a couple of SUNYACs. Midd definitely could have a stronger non-conference by playing some of those cited, including Plattsburgh and I'm not sure exactly how far SLU is.

Here's an odd one and my gut reaction is that it's not a good idea but maybe it is....Hamilton appears to be playing Oneonta St as their last game of the season. After going through the NESCAC gauntlet is Oneonta who you want to be playing going into the NESCAC tournament?

Anyway, at a minimum I do think NESCACs could more frequently schedule some NJAC, SUNYAC, LL matches.

One final point...while it's totally fair to say that for the first couple of weeks attention goes to many of the wonderful intersectional non-conference clashes, it's also seems fair to not overly punish (poll-wise) the NESCACs for starting 1-0-1, 2-0-2, 1-1, or 2-1, especially if those blemishes are against each other. 

[D3_Slack]

In terms of soccer conferences is it the general consensus that it's the NESCAC as a clear #1 and all other conferences behind?  What conference would be next?  Thanks.

[d4_Pace]

Yeah, for me, I think you have to factor in level of competition to some degree.  Last year I chafed at Chicago maintaining a fairly high ranking with 5 losses but I later accepted the reasoning.  Also some of these top teams have been playing each other.  Like as much as I love the Eau Claire story I can't put them ahead of Conn or Tufts or maybe even Montclair, Rowan, Cortland, etc.  I wouldn't have dinged Conn much for the draw with Tufts but I will a bit for the home Bowdoin loss, and the latter may well keep Conn out of my top 10-12 and I'm guessing mid to late teens for the NESCAC group.

I will repeat that imo Messiah, North Park, and Chicago are the clear top 3 at the moment.  The next group for me like Calvin, Kenyon, W&L, Hopkins, Oneonta, along with the NESCAC group, to varying degrees have not looked great but I do think most will be there in the end.  I also will rate teams like Stevens and Pac Lutheran (assuming the Lutes handle Willamette today) highly, but I can't quite pull the trigger on bumping them up (yet) beyond the 8-12 range.

Respectfully, feels to me that NESCAC is not being given its due.  As some have mentioned, Conn brings back pretty much the same team from last year and by the looks of their roster filled up with a bunch of talent.  It's quite a rare occurrence for an out of conference team to get a W against a NESCAC team and come the tournament the NESCAC teams have dominated the last several years - three out of the four NESCAC teams that got invited made the final 8 last year.  Wesleyan just beat Brandeis 3-0 and Hamilton beat Ithaca College (not having a good year) 3-0.  To me it seems that NESCAC is just getting stronger with better talent, resulting in more parity. Something to consider is that several teams have very strong 5th year seniors in addition to the 4 recruiting classes that came after them.  More talent.  Same for other schools but that is my guess for why more parity this year, which is still fairly young.

The thing about NESCAC is that they can get away with playing fairly pedestrian non-conference schedules.  Wesleyan- Brandeis might have been the most notable non-conference game and there are a lot of games against teams that will do nothing for strength of schedule. That's because the NESCAC schools can accumulate strength-of-schedule in conference, presumably based on past results and reputation of the teams in the conference.  In other conferences, the non-conference results basically seal a team's fate if they don't win their conferences, but in NESCAC they can start a little slower and still be in contention by season's end.  It also means that for at least the first couple of weeks of the season, the focus is going to be on the battles between traditional national teams in other conferences rather than on the NESCAC teams.  I don't think it's disrespect; rather, it's the recognition that the NESCAC race is just getting started.

I think the NESCAC certainly gets enough due and perhaps even too much attention for those not associated to bear. One thing that I think worth clarifying is that the NESCAC's SOS has nothing to do with past results or reputation. It is a formula used for all DIII teams based on Wins and Losses so the NESCAC teams build up a strong SOS by winning the majority of their out of conference games.

I know in the past we looked into trying to play a big out of conference game but it was difficult to make work. Brandeis already filled that role as a perennial top 10-15 program until their recent downturn. Then logistically we didn't have any open weekends so any marquee matchup would have to take place during the week (not really feasible due to travel) or on the weekend when we already had a NESCAC game creating another double header. Now this year for example Tufts are free October 8th but at that point most other schools are in the middle of conference play and unlikely to be free to travel.

Hopefully this will change because it would have been awesome to go play at Messiah or somewhere like that but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

[PaulNewman]

Would be interesting to see something similar for D3...

https://www.slamstox.com/en/insights-fun-more-english/top-10-college-soccer-facilities/

[EnmoreCat]

Obviously very new to all of this, but I understood that NESCAC is quite prescriptive about schedules.  Not sure if that's just start dates, but whether it extends to travel for non-conference games.  I think in some ways it's a shame we don't get to see some "bigger" non-conference games before the tournament, but to be fair, of the two NESCAC games I have seen so far, both were intense and pretty well supported. As an aside, you can overdo the travel too.  My son's former West Virginia team plays at Portland tonight, that's a pretty serious time commitment at the expense of study, for a non-conference game.

[SimpleCoach]

Would be interesting to see something similar for D3...

https://www.slamstox.com/en/insights-fun-more-english/top-10-college-soccer-facilities/

Like ... kinda sorta ... Fields of Dreams?

[Ejay]

Would be interesting to see something similar for D3...

https://www.slamstox.com/en/insights-fun-more-english/top-10-college-soccer-facilities/

I'm sure there are a ton of beautiful D3 facilities around the country. A few fields I've been on that would make my list include Lynchburg, Roanoke, and Cabrini. Any with a football field or track should be banned.

[camosfan]

Trinity in CT has the best grass field I have seen in college, Pingry and Episcopal for high school.

[Kuiper]

MSOE tied Elmhurst tonight 3-3.  Has the clock struck midnight and MSOE's carriage turned into a pumpkin or is Elmhurst better than their average results would suggest?

[Gregory Sager]

The former.

[Hopkins92]

In terms of soccer conferences is it the general consensus that it's the NESCAC as a clear #1 and all other conferences behind?  What conference would be next?  Thanks.

I feel like this is UAA, but curious if anyone has another contender?