2022 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective

[PaulNewman]

Such a weird conference. A team from California facing off against a team from Wisconsin... In Salisbury, MD.

The Warthogs squaring off against the Banana Slugs... Fitting, I guess, that the mascots are also pretty random.

Are there warthogs in Wisconsin?  I know there are banana slugs in Santa Cruz, but the mascot was definitely chosen as a parody of the fierce mascots used in other schools that (over) emphasize athletics.

Incidentally, the reason that has national interest (outside of the fact that the conference is literally national) is that if anyone other than Christopher Newport wins the tournament, then I'm guessing that will push someone out of a Pool C bid.

CNU OR MW....I think both would be in line for a Pool C.

[Kuiper]

For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half.  The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games.  It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.

What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional.  I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.

The odd thing is that UC Santa Cruz already plays a lot of SCIAC teams.  This year, they played 6 of the 9 teams by traveling down to Los Angeles 2-3 times each season for multiple game weekends and they usually get at least a couple to make the trip up north by arranging a tournament with some teams from Oregon/Washington and/or Wisconsin/Minnesota.  Presumably, SCIAC doesn't want to let them in as a full member.

[Hopkins92]

I don't remember W&L getting hammered here, but I definitely remember them losing momentum, focus, whatever, and not playing well last year. It felt like that (loss of focus) most of this season, but the last 2 games it feels like the team has come together,  and is clicking.

Going back and reading up... You all are correct, it wasn't really a hammering, just popping off (from me, mostly :-)) because it was the first time I'd seen them play and they just weren't very good against Randolph. I was expecting a Messiah or Tufts-like performance and what I saw was a lot of nerves and no real plan.

They, obviously, fixed all that once they started dancing.

(I was also very annoyed with the camera person )

[stlawus]

For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half.  The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games.  It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.

What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional.  I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.

This has been brought up for other sports before.  The main reason it hasn't happened is because the ODAC likes their conference profile, and CNU doesn't fit it given they're a public school.  Combine that with the fact the ODAC is already too big as it is.

[PaulNewman]

I don't remember W&L getting hammered here, but I definitely remember them losing momentum, focus, whatever, and not playing well last year. It felt like that (loss of focus) most of this season, but the last 2 games it feels like the team has come together,  and is clicking.

Sometimes you need a kick in the rear. It's possible losing to Guilford was the kick they needed. Beating Guilford solidly in the ODAC first round didn't mean much, big revenge game against a fairly weak opponent, but Va Wes was having a solid season.

The Marlins are fifth in the Region VI standings this week, and with Lynchburg losing early (4th) a win over W&L would have given them some solid hope at a C as well as possibly an A. Plus it would have helped with the comparison with Sewanee (6th) as a common opponent. This game was huge for the Marlins.

Instead W&L stepped on their neck 3 minutes in and didn't let up, and since Va Wes had to chase at that point, it was very open for W&L to find those spaces and score.

Does this drastically change my opinion on W&L as a top 15 team in the country? Not really. But if W&L is back on the rise at the right time, the talent is there to do some damage to anyone's NCAA title hopes.

Agreed.  Iirc, W&L has never been outside the top 15 or so all season and I think most of us have assumed they would be a force to be reckoned with once we reached the NCAA tourney...especially with so much of last year's team returning (although, tbf, this WAS the time of year last year when Zimmerman became a D3boards household name. 

What confused me last night was what seemed like Hopkins' hot take that W&L fell off a cliff last year and was lost for a period of time, and it seemed he was making a point contrasting last season's "dip" with this year and opining that W&L actually has been more consistent, less uneven, (and maybe less lost?) THIS year.  Those are the points I don't see, in part because what seemed so remarkable last year was how remarkably well they handled being in the position of "top team in the country" for the first time of their history and did so basically wire to wire.  In my mind, there is no question their season this year has been more uneven than last year, which is evident in the significantly higher number of blemishes.

All that said, do I think W&L could land in the Final four again?  Yes, absolutely. 

[Hopkins92]

The other thing we talked a lot about last year was the idea of building a team that can compete well in November. The W&L coach clearly found a way to refocus that team last year, and it sure sounds like they've found a way to get things back on track this year. 

[jknezek]

For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half.  The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games.  It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.

What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional.  I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.

This has been brought up for other sports before.  The main reason it hasn't happened is because the ODAC likes their conference profile, and CNU doesn't fit it given they're a public school.  Combine that with the fact the ODAC is already too big as it is.

This exactly. The ODAC has written into the bylaws that public schools are not allowed. That would have to change and I don't think there is any sentiment in the conference to do so. Nor is there a need. The conference has expanded several times lately, adding Shenandoah, Ferrum, and Averett. All were football playing schools at a time when the ODAC was at or approaching the loss of bid limit for football and teams struggling to find enough non-conference games. With that limit now down to 6, and the conference comfortably at 8 football playing schools with no affiliates, I don't see the ODAC expanding again.

Most of the ODAC sports are ridiculously overcrowded and don't even play full round robins. Men's soccer is one of those.  Though women's soccer with 14 teams is particularly egregious and several other women's team sports have 13 teams as well.

[PaulNewman]

OK, OK.....well maybe the NJAC!  Just seems absurd for CNU to be so homeless and playing teams the NCAA would never send to even for the NCAA tournament.  I'm guessing the furthest West they've gone for the tournament was Gambier, OH.

[PaulNewman]

Btw, I buy the argument that the ODAC already is too big.  But I don't buy that the conference has some fidelity to particular types of institutions.  They're all private but otherwise there's not really some theme or status that binds them together.

[jknezek]

OK, OK.....well maybe the NJAC!  Just seems absurd for CNU to be so homeless and playing teams the NCAA would never send to even for the NCAA tournament.  I'm guessing the furthest West they've gone for the tournament was Gambier, OH.

You're not wrong. But there isn't an easy solution. CNU, Mary Washington, Salisbury... they were really hurt by Frostburg going D2, Wesley going under, and the CAC having to rebrand when York left. The C2C is a terrible idea. It exists mostly to avoid Pool B and to provide weekly honors to athletes. Everyone of those schools would bail in a heartbeat if they had a better option.

[jknezek]

Btw, I buy the argument that the ODAC already is too big.  But I don't buy that the conference has some fidelity to particular types of institutions.  They're all private but otherwise there's not really some theme or status that binds them together.

Who said there was? The mission statement, found here: https://odaconline.com/information/purpose is pretty boilerplate. However:

4. Maintaining competitive equity within the conference

involving private institutions, in geographic proximity to each other
emphasizing round-robin conference competition and excellence within the league, with national prominence a by-product rather than a primary emphasis
providing an efficient and effective conference administrative structure

[PaulNewman]

Btw, I buy the argument that the ODAC already is too big.  But I don't buy that the conference has some fidelity to particular types of institutions.  They're all private but otherwise there's not really some theme or status that binds them together.

Who said there was? The mission statement, found here: https://odaconline.com/information/purpose is pretty boilerplate. However:

4. Maintaining competitive equity within the conference

involving private institutions, in geographic proximity to each other
emphasizing round-robin conference competition and excellence within the league, with national prominence a by-product rather than a primary emphasis
providing an efficient and effective conference administrative structure

Didn't say that anybody did....just saying there isn't.

[Hopkins92]

For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half.  The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games.  It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.

What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional.  I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.

The odd thing is that UC Santa Cruz already plays a lot of SCIAC teams.  This year, they played 6 of the 9 teams by traveling down to Los Angeles 2-3 times each season for multiple game weekends and they usually get at least a couple to make the trip up north by arranging a tournament with some teams from Oregon/Washington and/or Wisconsin/Minnesota.  Presumably, SCIAC doesn't want to let them in as a full member.

I was about to make a comment about how it seems unfair that the soccer tournaments for this conference seem to be loaded up on the East Coast, (I believe it was Mary Wash last year), but... That's just how the rotation worked out. Next year they are in Santa Cruz.

[jknezek]

Btw, I buy the argument that the ODAC already is too big.  But I don't buy that the conference has some fidelity to particular types of institutions.  They're all private but otherwise there's not really some theme or status that binds them together.

Who said there was? The mission statement, found here: https://odaconline.com/information/purpose is pretty boilerplate. However:

4. Maintaining competitive equity within the conference

involving private institutions, in geographic proximity to each other
emphasizing round-robin conference competition and excellence within the league, with national prominence a by-product rather than a primary emphasis
providing an efficient and effective conference administrative structure

Didn't say that anybody did....just saying there isn't.

Not sure I agree. They are almost all small to medium sized private liberal arts schools in Virginia. Off the top of my head, H-SC, Hollins, and Sweet Briar are all single sex with less than 900 undergrads each. Randolph keeps the doors open with 700 coeds. Ferrum 800 I think. Averett, EMU, Va Wes, Guilford, Bridgewater 1200-1400. R-MC 1500. Roanoke, Lynchburg and W&L around 1800-2100 undergrads. Shenandoah has 2400 undergrads.

But that's the conference profile. There are outliers by different measures, the 3 single sex schools, W&L from an academic and endowment perspective, Shenandoah in size, Guilford being the only school outside Virginia. But mostly, small to midsize liberal arts schools in Virginia.

A public school with 4500 undergraduates would be quite the outlier.

[Hopkins92]

For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half.  The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games.  It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.

What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional.  I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.

The odd thing is that UC Santa Cruz already plays a lot of SCIAC teams.  This year, they played 6 of the 9 teams by traveling down to Los Angeles 2-3 times each season for multiple game weekends and they usually get at least a couple to make the trip up north by arranging a tournament with some teams from Oregon/Washington and/or Wisconsin/Minnesota.  Presumably, SCIAC doesn't want to let them in as a full member.

I was about to make a comment about how it seems unfair that the soccer tournaments for this conference seem to be loaded up on the East Coast, (I believe it was Mary Wash last year), but... That's just how the rotation worked out. Next year they are in Santa Cruz.

I really don't understand how they do the seeding in the C2C... Salisbury is 4-11-2... How are they seeded #6? Can't be Massey. I wonder if a lot of these schools just decide not to participate in the tournament?