2022 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective

[jknezek]

For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half.  The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games.  It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.

What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional.  I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.

The odd thing is that UC Santa Cruz already plays a lot of SCIAC teams.  This year, they played 6 of the 9 teams by traveling down to Los Angeles 2-3 times each season for multiple game weekends and they usually get at least a couple to make the trip up north by arranging a tournament with some teams from Oregon/Washington and/or Wisconsin/Minnesota.  Presumably, SCIAC doesn't want to let them in as a full member.

I was about to make a comment about how it seems unfair that the soccer tournaments for this conference seem to be loaded up on the East Coast, (I believe it was Mary Wash last year), but... That's just how the rotation worked out. Next year they are in Santa Cruz.

I really don't understand how they do the seeding in the C2C... Salisbury is 4-11-2... How are they seeded #6? Can't be Massey. I wonder if a lot of these schools just decide not to participate in the tournament?

It is done by Massey. They link to the Ratings they used on the sport page on the C2C website:

if you go here: https://www.c2csports.com/sports/msoc/2022-23/standings
The click on Massey ratings, you end up here:
https://masseyratings.com/csoc2022/coast-to-coast/ratings

[Hopkins92]

Wow. Thanks for that, sorry for being lazy.

[Gregory Sager]

Such a weird conference. A team from California facing off against a team from Wisconsin... In Salisbury, MD.

The Warthogs squaring off against the Banana Slugs... Fitting, I guess, that the mascots are also pretty random.

Are there warthogs in Wisconsin?

UWW is the Warhawks, not the Warthogs ... although "Warthogs" as a school nickname is certainly both more distinctive and more amusing.

[Hopkins92]

Ha! That makes a lot more sense, thanks!

[Hopkins92]

Going to OT down (well for me) in Salisbury.

[Gregory Sager]

For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half.  The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games.  It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.

What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional.  I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.

The NCAA really has nothing to do with it. The organization's hands are tied, because the C2C's members are all members in good standing of NCAA D3 and can organize themselves any way that they like. There's really no fundamental difference between the C2C and any other league in the division according to the NCAA statutes. Besides, since the NCAA isn't paying airfare and hotel bills for the C2C tourney, it's really no skin off of Indy's nose.

All of the schools you've mentioned within the C2C are state schools that have no nearby state-school conferences to rescue them from orphanhood, were there no C2C. The ODAC is all private schools, and its bylaws automatically exclude state schools. In America's Dairyland, UWEC, UWW, and UW-Platteville are all unwanted children as far as neighboring D3 soccer leagues are concerned, for a slightly different reason than CNU's. Although there is one nearby D3 conference, the UMAC, that has a mixed polity (state schools UW-Superior and UM-Morris are part of the conference), it is extremely unlikely that the UMAC would accept the three WIAC refugees for men's and women's soccer. When UW-Superior was a member of the WIAC, it was the league's all-sports doormat, dwarfed in size by its sister schools (which range from UW-River Falls at a bit under 6,000 to UW-Oshkosh at more than 15,000 -- UW-Superior has about 2,500 students) and located in the most remote corner of the state from Wisconsin's major population centers. It left the WIAC for the UMAC because it simply couldn't compete in sports with its much bigger and more felicitously-located sister campuses. And Minnesota-Morris has never really been much of a threat to dominate the UMAC in any sport, because it's so small (1,500 students) and so remote (it's in the west central Minnesota farm belt, near the South Dakota border) that it's unlikely to ever be a destination spot for student-athletes from any of Minnesota's main population centers. UWS and UMM are competitive but not dominant within the UMAC as a whole; although UWS is very good at men's soccer by UMAC standards, it doesn't come anywhere close to being what, say, Messiah is to the MAC Commonwealth. Bethany Lutheran has been very much a viable rival of UWS at the top of the UMAC men's soccer table over the past few seasons. But if you put the three WIAC exiles from a broken-up C2C into the UMAC, with their massive size, resources, locations, and strong athletics traditions, UWEC, UWW, and UW-Platteville would make mincemeat out of the rest of the UMAC on the soccer pitch, and everyone knows it. That's why it would be highly unlikely for the UMAC to invite them in as associate members for the two sports of men's and women's soccer.

UCSC is the loneliest outpost in D3, even lonelier than UMPI way up there in the northern wastes of Maine. The Banana Slugs not only have the inconvenience of being the only state school on the West Coast within D3, they're also a five-and-a-half-hour busride up the coast from the nearest SCIAC school and a ten-and-a-half-hour busride down the coast from the nearest NWC school. Ain't no way that UCSC is ever going to get invited to join either league.

As for the national tournament, the C2C's rep or reps will get slotted within the D3 tourney field within the same geographical constraints as anybody else.

If what you're proposing is that these C2C schools be allowed to play as independents during the regular season and then be folded into other schools' leagues for conference tournament purposes, I can't imagine why any league would ever agree to that. There's no upside; it's all downside. Why would you invite an outsider to come into your tournament and possibly steal your league's AQ from an actual member?

It's a long way away from being an ideal solution, but, given the exigencies of the schools involved, the C2C is really the ideal setting to handle the needs of D3 soccer's various orphans.

[Chargers96]

Salisbury with the upset over UW-Platteville in PKs 7-6.  Salisbury will face CNU tomorrow in their 3rd matchup of the year.  CNU won both previous games 3-0.  Can sometimes be tough to beat a team 3 times in a row.

I think the other semifinal is a rematch from last year, UMW vs. UW-Whitewater.  UMW prevailed in a closely contested game.

[Chargers96]

Salisbury with the upset over UW-Platteville in PKs 7-6.  Salisbury will face CNU tomorrow in their 3rd matchup of the year.  CNU won both previous games 3-0.  Can sometimes be tough to beat a team 3 times in a row.

I think the other semifinal is a rematch from last year, UMW vs. UW-Whitewater.  UMW prevailed in a closely contested game.

Got that backwards -- CNU will play UW-Whitewater and UMW will play Salisbury.

[Hopkins92]

Now I'm just rooting for Salisbury to win out and get the AQ, but on PKs.

I wonder.  what is the worst record for a team going to The Dance?

[PaulNewman]

And so UW-Platteville moves on from Salisbury, MD to BDB (Big Dance Bubble).

[PaulNewman]

No way MW loses to Salisbury twice in two weeks.  But will keep a hat on stand-by.

[Hopkins92]

Now I'm just rooting for Salisbury to win out and get the AQ, but on PKs.

I wonder.  what is the worst record for a team going to The Dance?

How could I forget... Hopkins beat a 7-10-1 John Jay team in 2019.

(And, btw, on the topic of ties.. Middlebury had 7(!) ties that year.

ETA - And I went back a few more years and there's nothing that comes even close to what a Salisbury AQ would mean. It's really hard to think of a scenario where it could happen outside of the C2C. 

[coach analytics]

Let's see what happens this year.  Last year most agreed they deserved five and they got four.

Coach, what your detailed analysis does not do is show the draws that especially the top 2-3 NESCACs get.  Often the first weekend is almost a joke, and often the Sweet 16 opponent is good but manageable (or doesn't strike fear in your heart).  A couple of those years Tufts could have floated to the Elite 8.


Guys I appreciate the back and forth and the challenge to the thesis, but I am not sure I agree with your criticism.

In 2019 Tufts second and third round games were 1 goal victories against perennially strong NCAA tournament program WPI and W&L before getting to Conn.  In fact they were way more dominant in the final 4 with a 6-0 goal diff in two games.

In 2021 Conn had to go to PKs to advance against Salem St

This right here. No one's doubting the NESCAC quality and they deserve all their plaudits, but the eastern teams can fatten up against lesser competition due to the sheer number of schools in the area. The East Region in basketball (in the previous regional ranking system), for example, is a perennial joke.

Guys I really appreciate the back and forth as well as the challenging of the thesis but I am struggling to see what you mean about "easy" early rounds for NESCAC heavy weights.

In 2019 Tufts had an easy first game but then 1 goal victories over pretty strong programs like WPI, W&L to get to Conn in the elite 8.  In fact Tufts second and thrid round games were the only 1-0 victories en route to the final 5 where they had a 6-0 goal differential with Calvin and Amherst.

In 2021 Conn College had to go to PKs to beat Salem St and then play UAA foe NYU (3-0) and take down Redlands in a 1-0 game with an 88th minute goal.

In 2021 Tufts had an easy first game but then went to PKs with Stevens (a year later undefeated and #4 team) as well as take down Centennial foe Wash College in a 1 goal game.


This was hardly "cupcake city" in terms of scheduling.  It also ignores a 6-0 record against UAA and Centennial foes over 3 years....not a loss, not even a draw.


(modified by GS for formatting)

[PaulNewman]

Wilmington and Ohio Northern 1-1 headed to 2nd OT.  Too bad the camera doesn't move off the center line.

[PaulNewman]

And Wilmington wins it....oh wait...it's not sudden death.  4:25 left in 2nd OT.