USC Rankings

[Midwest Fan]

Curious, is anyone able to explain how North Central University (not North Central College, #14) is still receiving votes after 3 (bad) losses and a tie? They've seemed to stay in RV throughout the season thus far... fully aware I might be missing something here. And I've seen the noise around taking these rankings with a grain of salt. Still, this one just seems... perplexing.

[Kuiper]

National - Poll 3 - September 26, 2023
Rank    School    Prev    W-L-T
1    Messiah University    3    7-0-1
2    University of Mary Washington    1    6-1-0
3    Amherst College    7    6-0-1
4    Montclair State University    5    7-0-1
5    University of Chicago    6    5-1-1
6    SUNY Oneonta    12    8-0-0
7    Carleton College    11    9-0-0
8    University of Saint Thomas (Texas)    10    6-0-1
9    University of Mount Union    18    8-0-0
10    Emory University    19    6-1-2
11    Trinity University (Texas)    14    5-0-2
12    University of Rochester    7    5-0-2
13    Lebanon Valley College    20    6-1-0
14    North Central College    22    9-1-0
15    Middlebury College    17    5-0-2
16    Bowdoin College    RV    5-0-2
17    Gustavus Adolphus College    16    3-1-3
18    Babson College    15    5-3-1
19    Widener University    RV    7-0-0
20    SUNY Cortland    24    7-1-1
21    Macalester College    23    6-1-2
22    Muhlenberg College    NR    5-1-1
23    Williams College    2    5-1-1
24    Calvin University    13    7-2-0
25    Franklin & Marshall College    9    5-1-2

Records shown are through games of September 24, 2023

Also receiving votes: North Central University, University of Lynchburg, Texas Lutheran University, John Carroll University, Kean University, Denison University, Rowan University, Emerson College, Christopher Newport University

[PaulNewman]

Just one great example of how mechanical the process is here....  Babson at #18 with Conn (who just beat Babson) and Tufts, both with better records, not only not ranked ahead of Babson but not even making the RV category.  They needed to have someone in there from Reg 2.  I guarantee you 95% of coaches do not consider this poll legitimate.  By contrast, the D3soccer.com poll was generally excellent...year after year.

[Coach Jeff]

Curious, is anyone able to explain how North Central University (not North Central College, #14) is still receiving votes after 3 (bad) losses and a tie? They've seemed to stay in RV throughout the season thus far... fully aware I might be missing something here. And I've seen the noise around taking these rankings with a grain of salt. Still, this one just seems... perplexing.

North Central (IL) is 9-1 on the season and they play in the CCIW DIII.  Should not be perplexing at all.  They do not have 3 losses or a tie.  Check out this team's information.  I believe you are looking at North Central UNIVERSITY in MN not North Central College in IL.

[Coach Jeff]

I am confused by Babson being rank in the Top 25 at 18 with a record of 5-3-1.  Are they saying that no other universities/colleges are better then this team at 18?

Just one great example of how mechanical the process is here....  Babson at #18 with Conn (who just beat Babson) and Tufts, both with better records, not only not ranked ahead of Babson but not even making the RV category.  They needed to have someone in there from Reg 2.  I guarantee you 95% of coaches do not consider this poll legitimate.  By contrast, the D3soccer.com poll was generally excellent...year after year.

It is crazy that the beavers get in the top 25 over schools like Mt Union 8-0 & Texas Lutheran 9-0...I agree with your Reg 2 statement it is just still wrong.

[Kuiper]

Curious, is anyone able to explain how North Central University (not North Central College, #14) is still receiving votes after 3 (bad) losses and a tie? They've seemed to stay in RV throughout the season thus far... fully aware I might be missing something here. And I've seen the noise around taking these rankings with a grain of salt. Still, this one just seems... perplexing.

North Central (IL) is 9-1 on the season and they play in the CCIW DIII.  Should not be perplexing at all.  They do not have 3 losses or a tie.  Check out this team's information.  I believe you are looking at North Central UNIVERSITY in MN not North Central College in IL.

I thought the poster was very clear they were asking about North Central University, which is in the "receiving votes" section, rather than the North Central College you are referring to from the CCIW that the poster indicates is #14.  North Central University is 3-3-1 and it is not ranked in any USC regional ranking, nor has it received votes in any regional ranking as far as I can tell.  Only thing I can think of is that it started out the season 3-0 before going winless in the last four games and someone is keeping them up there and not updating their ballot (which suggests a voting process that is not as mechanical as @PaulNewman described it).

[Midwest Fan]

Curious, is anyone able to explain how North Central University (not North Central College, #14) is still receiving votes after 3 (bad) losses and a tie? They've seemed to stay in RV throughout the season thus far... fully aware I might be missing something here. And I've seen the noise around taking these rankings with a grain of salt. Still, this one just seems... perplexing.

North Central (IL) is 9-1 on the season and they play in the CCIW DIII.  Should not be perplexing at all.  They do not have 3 losses or a tie.  Check out this team's information.  I believe you are looking at North Central UNIVERSITY in MN not North Central College in IL.

Thanks, sorry if I wasn't clear. I am looking at and talking about North Central University in MN. If you take a look at the below link, North Central UNIVERSITY has been in the "Also receiving votes" category for the past 3 weeks now. Maybe the first week makes sense, since they started 3-0. But still in RV? That is perplexing, because to me that means they are on the cusp of making the top 25. Which doesn't make sense given their history and recent results that I outlined.

https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/rankings/college-rankings/ncaa-diii-men/

[Coach Jeff]

Curious, is anyone able to explain how North Central University (not North Central College, #14) is still receiving votes after 3 (bad) losses and a tie? They've seemed to stay in RV throughout the season thus far... fully aware I might be missing something here. And I've seen the noise around taking these rankings with a grain of salt. Still, this one just seems... perplexing.

North Central (IL) is 9-1 on the season and they play in the CCIW DIII.  Should not be perplexing at all.  They do not have 3 losses or a tie.  Check out this team's information.  I believe you are looking at North Central UNIVERSITY in MN not North Central College in IL.

Thanks, sorry if I wasn't clear. I am looking at and talking about North Central University in MN. If you take a look at the below link, North Central UNIVERSITY has been in the "Also receiving votes" category for the past 3 weeks now. Maybe the first week makes sense, since they started 3-0. But still in RV? That is perplexing, because to me that means they are on the cusp of making the top 25. Which doesn't make sense given their history and recent results that I outlined.

https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/rankings/college-rankings/ncaa-diii-men/

I got it now thanks.  Not sure other than they need teams from all the regions just to feel good about their poll???

[Kuiper]

Curious, is anyone able to explain how North Central University (not North Central College, #14) is still receiving votes after 3 (bad) losses and a tie? They've seemed to stay in RV throughout the season thus far... fully aware I might be missing something here. And I've seen the noise around taking these rankings with a grain of salt. Still, this one just seems... perplexing.

North Central (IL) is 9-1 on the season and they play in the CCIW DIII.  Should not be perplexing at all.  They do not have 3 losses or a tie.  Check out this team's information.  I believe you are looking at North Central UNIVERSITY in MN not North Central College in IL.

Thanks, sorry if I wasn't clear. I am looking at and talking about North Central University in MN. If you take a look at the below link, North Central UNIVERSITY has been in the "Also receiving votes" category for the past 3 weeks now. Maybe the first week makes sense, since they started 3-0. But still in RV? That is perplexing, because to me that means they are on the cusp of making the top 25. Which doesn't make sense given their history and recent results that I outlined.

https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/rankings/college-rankings/ncaa-diii-men/

I got it now thanks.  Not sure other than they need teams from all the regions just to feel good about their poll???

That is actually the process as I understand it, but they already have Carleton, Gustavus Adolphus, and Macalester in this ranking (I think North Central University is in Region IX) and there are 7 other teams in the Region IX regional rankings that would come before North Central University, including two who are receiving votes in the region, if this was strictly about regional representation.  This suggests that, contrary to assertions about the process, there must be some agency to voters in voting within certain parameters.

[PaulNewman]

OK, mechanical + sloppiness.  I would be very hesitant to ascribe intentionality.  Is it possible there's a rogue coach/voter on the loose? Sure, I suppose... but that would be a bug rather than a feature.

[Kuiper]

OK, mechanical + sloppiness.  I would be very hesitant to ascribe intentionality.  Is it possible there's a rogue coach/voter on the loose? Sure, I suppose... but that would be a bug rather than a feature.

If so, the "receiving votes" section is where you would see it.  It's sort of like when one voter ranked Illinois Wesleyan and Bard first and second in the first D3Soccer.com Board poll of the year.  Difference there is that they dropped out completely in the second ranking of the year, which suggests it was a mistake or placeholder (although both teams arguably had better starts to the season than normal, but probably not #1 and #2 in the country starts), while North Central University has been receiving votes in the national ranking every week. So, just enough ability to vote in a way that screws with the system (intentionally or unintentionally) to give conspiracy theorists room to rail against their team's ranking! 

I should add that I say this as someone who doesn't put stock in or care much about rankings except insofar as they influence who gets in the NCAA tournament.  If we're going to have one, we should be fair about who gets selected.  And on that subject, I'm also probably one of the very few people on this board (and perhaps anywhere in D3) who would be fine if we got rid of D3 national tournaments (and really college national tournaments at all levels) and just focused on conference tournaments only.  The national tournament is what incentivizes schools to travel crazy distances during the season to build up strength-of-schedule and to create crazy conferences just to secure an automatic bid.  And in D3, there isn't even a revenue reason to do it like in D1 football and basketball.  Of course, eliminating national play would really kill traffic on this Board since it does provide a reason for people to follow what's going on in other conferences! 

And if Simple Coach is listening, the national tournament concept is what drives a lot of the craziness in youth soccer too in terms of expenses/travel etc.

[Flying Weasel]

North Central UNIVERSITY (Minn.) is in Region IX.  They have not appeared in the Region IX rankings (or receiving votes) any week this season.  Thus it is completely inexplicable how they would be listed as receiving votes in the national ranking.

If they were in the same region with North Central COLLEGE (Ill.) and they received votes in the regional rankings, then you could put that down to voter error/mix-up.  But that clearly is not what's happening.  So who knows what's happening, but it really is ridiculous.  Apparently there are some non-D3 soccer fans involved in the process of preparing and publishing the rankings, because otherwise that should/would be easily caught and corrected.

[Kuiper]

National Rankings for Oct 3

https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/rankings/college-rankings/ncaa-diii-men/

National - Poll 4 - October 3, 2023
Rank    School    Prev    W-L-T
1    Messiah University    1    9-0-1
2    University of Mary Washington    2    8-1-0
3    Montclair State University    4    9-0-1
4    SUNY Oneonta    6    9-1-0
5    Emory University    10    7-1-2
6    Lebanon Valley College    13    8-1-0
7    Middlebury College    15    6-0-2
8    Bowdoin College    16    6-0-3
9    Babson College    18    7-3-1
10    University of Chicago    5    6-1-2
11    North Central College    14    10-1-0
12    Widener University    19    9-0-0
13    Carleton College    7    10-1-0
14    University of Mount Union    9    9-1-0
15    SUNY Cortland    20    9-1-1
16    Muhlenberg College    22    7-1-1
17    Calvin University    24    7-2-1
18    Franklin & Marshall College    25    8-1-2
19    Texas Lutheran University    RV    11-0-0
20    Case Western Reserve University    NR    7-1-1
21    Connecticut College    NR    6-0-2
22    Amherst College    3    7-2-1
23    Gustavus Adolphus College    17    2-1-5
24    University of Lynchburg    RV    8-1-0
25    Trinity University (Texas)    11    6-1-2

Records shown are through games of October 1, 2023

Also receiving votes: University of Saint Thomas (Texas), Colorado College, University of Rochester, Kean University, Macalester College, Suffolk University, Tufts University, John Carroll University, Christopher Newport University

[Kuiper]

National Rankings for Oct 3

https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/rankings/college-rankings/ncaa-diii-men/

National - Poll 4 - October 3, 2023
Rank    School    Prev    W-L-T
1    Messiah University    1    9-0-1
2    University of Mary Washington    2    8-1-0
3    Montclair State University    4    9-0-1
4    SUNY Oneonta    6    9-1-0
5    Emory University    10    7-1-2
6    Lebanon Valley College    13    8-1-0
7    Middlebury College    15    6-0-2
8    Bowdoin College    16    6-0-3
9    Babson College    18    7-3-1
10    University of Chicago    5    6-1-2
11    North Central College    14    10-1-0
12    Widener University    19    9-0-0
13    Carleton College    7    10-1-0
14    University of Mount Union    9    9-1-0
15    SUNY Cortland    20    9-1-1
16    Muhlenberg College    22    7-1-1
17    Calvin University    24    7-2-1
18    Franklin & Marshall College    25    8-1-2
19    Texas Lutheran University    RV    11-0-0
20    Case Western Reserve University    NR    7-1-1
21    Connecticut College    NR    6-0-2
22    Amherst College    3    7-2-1
23    Gustavus Adolphus College    17    2-1-5
24    University of Lynchburg    RV    8-1-0
25    Trinity University (Texas)    11    6-1-2

Records shown are through games of October 1, 2023

Also receiving votes: University of Saint Thomas (Texas), Colorado College, University of Rochester, Kean University, Macalester College, Suffolk University, Tufts University, John Carroll University, Christopher Newport University

By the way, it looks like our "North Central University" voter has disappeared!

[camosfan]

 Is this record correct   "Gustavus Adolphus College    17    2-1-5"