2022 Season Game Notes

[Ejay]

This East Coaster knows St Johns. Played there against them and Wheaton (Il) and got smoked. Snowing in early October too. Not a great introduction to Minnesota.

[northman]

Btw, in referencing St Johns (MN) a week or two ago I mentioned that there was one other D3 in a different state based in a town called Collegeville.  That other school was Ursinus. 

I have learned so much about my own elitism over the past decade (and still admittedly very much a work in progress).  Most East Coasters know nothing about St John's (MN).  For folks in MN and ND and surrounding states it's considered an excellent school that often several generations of families attend.  When the vast majority of people in the country (and even the majority of people in the states where these schools are) hear the names Williams, Swarthmore, Bowdoin, Carnegie Mellon, Brown, etc those names don't register with them at all....not out of disdain for privilege/elitism but truly because they have never heard of them.  I remember one time driving to Gambier after renting a car at the Pittsburgh airport and I was at a Wendy's drive-thru I think in Coshocton, OH about 25 minutes away and I asked the kid which direction to get to Kenyon and they kid looked at me like I had four heads. Most people who live in Mt Vernon, OH literally 2 miles from campus would not know any difference between Kenyon and Mt Vernon Nazarene College.  I guarantee if I go to my closest McDonalds just outside Boston there will not be a single employee (or maybe patron inside the restaurant) who has ever heard of Williams or Colby or Wesleyan.

Actually, I'm a lifelong New Englander, but lived and worked in Minneapolis for several years.  I'm very aware of St. Johns and it's a great school.  And let's not forget Carleton in Northfield, MN (location of the demise of the James Gang by the way), which is one of the absolute top liberal arts colleges in the country.

[PaulNewman]

Of course, any New Englander who is really into elite schools knows about Carleton...and Macalester...and Grinnell...but most would not know St John's or that there are families who feel about St John's the same way you do about Bowdoin and Brown.

[PaulNewman]

This East Coaster knows St Johns. Played there against them and Wheaton (Il) and got smoked. Snowing in early October too. Not a great introduction to Minnesota.

Right, but how many folks in your town, on percentage basis, who aren't into D3 sports or have some tie to MN know about St John's?  And to be honest I don't much about it other than what I know from MIAC soccer and that it has a women's affiliated college, Benedictine.

[Falconer]

The thread here about Messiah's depth is getting frustratingly fatter as earlier posts are copied with comments, so I'll just resume that thread without copying it to save eyeballs. 

The Falcons have an outstanding group of new players this year, the kind of overall quality that is higher than their usual highly talented incoming class. Except to replace injured starters in one or two instances, none of the newbies have started—unlike some earlier banner years. For example, future AA defender Cooper Robbins and another D1 level player, Shay Quinton, both started right from the gate in their first season. Starting as a FY for Messiah indicates the real possibility of being an AA down the road, though only rarely in that season (Groothoff and Kai Kasiguran were AAs as FY players).

This year's group includes a player who was a finalist for HS POY in Tennessee (the winner went I think to Maryland or another ACC power), POY in West Virginia, and a terrific two-footed player from central PA (Davis Padgett) who's better than advertised. Three or four of the incoming players are indeed good enough now to start for most NESCAC or Centennial teams—and at least two are good enough now to start for Messiah even though they don't.

The three super-seniors are the backbone of the club, playing the 3 central positions: Groothoff up front, where he is a Messi-type player; Brautigam behind him, where his steady presence and deep knowledge of his teammates are evident; and Swartz in the DMF though he often comes up into the box. Except for Groothoff's irreplaceable ball skills and aerial dominance, each guy could play the other guys' roles without skipping a beat. They will be sorely missed next year, but (yes) most of the seniors plan to play again, including the very dangerous striker Macdonald. My very reliable source for that information seconds the reliable source above. No rumors yet about who might be coming in next fall, but with this year's version of the Falcons being a throwback to the Uber-high scoring teams of 20 years ago, I imagine some potential recruits on the borderline between Messiah and D1 or somewhere else will be persuaded to become Falcons.   

[4samuy]

Pn

Thanks for your thoughts!

I just really dislike the word elite or elitism as well as privileged class, upper class or high society, so I used the synonym best of the best to describe the acceptance rates at MIT and Chicago.  That's just me.

As for soccer being an upper income sport I have to disagree.  Now if your talking ice hockey I can go with that. IMO, at least in the Midwest, hockey is the upper income sport.

I totally agree with you on the faith based institutions and their pipelines to great soccer players and their reasons for selecting where they want to spend their next four years.  Heck, I almost attended wheaton to pursue my soccer career. 

So, I guess best of the best can be parsed in many different ways depending on the culture your looking for as well as the program and your faith.

One other question I had relating to your podcast.  You had mentioned that there were some signs during COVID that Kenyon may have some difficulties, but with Kenyons endowment, I was trying to figure out how that would be.

Be good.  Thanks

[PaulNewman]

Pn

Thanks for your thoughts!

I just really dislike the word elite or elitism as well as privileged class, upper class or high society, so I used the synonym best of the best to describe the acceptance rates at MIT and Chicago.  That's just me.

As for soccer being an upper income sport I have to disagree.  Now if your talking ice hockey I can go with that. IMO, at least in the Midwest, hockey is the upper income sport.

I totally agree with you on the faith based institutions and their pipelines to great soccer players and their reasons for selecting where they want to spend their next four years.  Heck, I almost attended wheaton to pursue my soccer career. 

So, I guess best of the best can be parsed in many different ways depending on the culture your looking for as well, the program and your faith.

One other question I had relating to your podcast.  You had mentioned that there were some signs during COVID that Kenyon may have some difficulties, but with Kenyons endowment, I was trying to figure out how that would be.

Be good.  Thanks

Yeah, there's no need for us to get hung up over certain words.  And my point was not whether people here on a very specialized board have heard of certain schools.  The point was that 90% of people in Western Mass don't know or react to the words Williams or Amherst...just like the vast majority of people in Maine could not care less about Bowdoin, Colby or Bates.  If you don't know D3 soccer and are part of secular America you most likely have never heard of Messiah either.

Maybe someone will post the spreadsheet SC and I mentioned.  There were like maybe five tiers listed...a top tier where all schools were expected to continue thriving, another one like almost thriving, another like feeling the pain, another for like borderline in distress, and then a last one for deep, deep trouble.  I think they got Kenyon wrong (in the middle group maybe iirc) but of course I'd think that.  Also may have had something to do with prognosticating about what states would struggle more, and maybe elite to highly elite schools in New England would have better odds than similar places in the Midwest.

[PaulNewman]

Messiah sure better win the national title or at least get to the final.  Given that they are three deep with AAs at every position a few injuries even to "key" players won't be a legitimate excuse given what we've heard here.  And how in the world did Tufts win four titles without the crutch of that Muhlenberg field?

[PaulNewman]

To get us a bit back on topic, let's compare Conn Coll and Trinity (CT).  If you asked most folks 15 years ago which one would win a national title their first answer would probably be neither, but in a forced choice I'd guess that most would have picked Trinity.  Same state, very much peers, with probably a ton of overlap applicants.  If anything Conn might be a little harder to get in and at this point might be preferable for many but not necessarily 15 years ago.  So what's the difference?  Why did Conn win a national title while Trinity has gone two full years without winning a conference game?

[Another Mom]

The Coach?

I don't have historical knowledge,  only know Ruben Burke is super highly regarded as someone who is straightforward and transparent during recruiting-- and he works hard at it. I definitely saw a correlation with successful programs and coaches that put effort into recruiting.  I know that's only one element of a successful program, but I expect that effort carries over to the other aspects.

[PaulNewman]

The Coach?

I don't have historical knowledge,  only know Ruben Burke is super highly regarded as someone who is straightforward and transparent during recruiting-- and he works hard at it. I definitely saw a correlation with successful programs and coaches that put effort into recruiting.  I know that's only one element of a successful program, but I expect that effort carries over to the other aspects.

Yes, I absolutely believe the coach is the biggest factor (presuming relatively similar desirability of the schools being discussed).  But what goes into getting that coach?  Burk is incredible...could not have been more impressed with him.  But who picked him and why?  His resume certainly wasn't glaringly obvious.  Maybe more importantly, what are the factors that result in ending up with a less than stellar coach?

[Saint of Old]

The Coach?

I don't have historical knowledge,  only know Ruben Burke is super highly regarded as someone who is straightforward and transparent during recruiting-- and he works hard at it. I definitely saw a correlation with successful programs and coaches that put effort into recruiting.  I know that's only one element of a successful program, but I expect that effort carries over to the other aspects.

Yes, I absolutely believe the coach is the biggest factor (presuming relatively similar desirability of the schools being discussed).  But what goes into getting that coach?  Burk is incredible...could not have been more impressed with him.  But who picked him and why?  His resume certainly wasn't glaringly obvious.  Maybe more importantly, what are the factors that result in ending up with a less than stellar coach?

All about the coach in college soccer.
Coach is the Coach.
Coach is also the GM as well as the PR guy.
In mu opinion, the best coach is the guy who was a good player based on effort more than ability, but with that eye to catch and scout the ability when he sees it.
They can then get into the mindset of those talented players and give them and the team what is necessary to succeed at that high level. Work ethic.
The mind game is where a coach has to succeed even more than X and O coaching.
You have a diverse bunch of young men 17-22 who are already super confident (a good thing) in their abilities.
The coach has to: caress/build -up/manage those egos at a time in life for young men where this is not easy to do.
Foster competition while maintaining a high degree of love and respect in the team. Hard balance


Some of the best in the business over the past 30, from Williams to Tufts and Ohio Weslyan and Messiah and Wheaton  in between have had coaches that built more families than programs. The men who know how to do this are the real good coaches.

[Ejay]

^^^^ This.

[Gregory Sager]

What seems like a disadvantage for the most academically elite is in some ways a huge advantage....soccer in many areas tends to be an upper income sport where families spend a lot of money on club soccer, camps, SAT tutors, etc, etc and there are natural pipelines from some of the most elite prep schools, most elite public schools, various Catholic schools with strong academics and athletics programs, etc.  The exclusivity becomes a plus for recruiting actually as the elite seek the elite and nothing says elite more than being center-mid at Phillips Exeter, or Phillips Andover, or Choate Rosemary Hall, or Woodberry Forest or Harvard Westlake and the like, and oh, btw, I also play for MLS Next somewhere.

Yep. The irony of American soccer is that the sport for the world's working-class and poor people has traditionally been a sport for the upper crust here in the States. Of course, that's been changing for at least a generation now, as the sport's popularity increases in the U.S. and the soccer-mom phenomenon steers kids who would've played football in past generations away from the gridiron and towards the soccer pitch. And in some metropolitan areas -- Chicagoland is a great example of this -- the combination of a large immigrant population hailing from soccer-mad countries with the huge expansion of local club soccer (and the commensurate shift in the affordability of club fees due to competition) has led to a large wave of outstanding D3 soccer players whose parents up in the stands speak broken or heavily-accented English.

[Gregory Sager]

This East Coaster knows St Johns. Played there against them and Wheaton (Il) and got smoked. Snowing in early October too. Not a great introduction to Minnesota.

Right, but how many folks in your town, on percentage basis, who aren't into D3 sports or have some tie to MN know about St John's?  And to be honest I don't much about it other than what I know from MIAC soccer and that it has a women's affiliated college, Benedictine.

It's a very good school with a large and passionate fan base in the one sport that really matters there, football. Even though the Johnnies tend to be good in all sports, that campus eats, sleeps, and breathes football.

BTW, the affiliated women's college next door to SJU is College of St. Benedict, not Benedictine. Benedictine is the coed NACC school in the southwest Chicago suburbs.