Ties and Overtime

[College Soccer Observer]

Relevant to the discussion, here are some figures from the NESCAC men

2021 Season:  7 games went to OT, 4 ended up with a winner
2019 Season:  24 games went to OT, 13 ended up with a winner

Over these two seasons, 17 games that went to OT had a winner and 14 stayed as ties. 

[PaulNewman]

Comparing a 400+ team division where you try and crown a champion in 4 months with a 20 team league with a single or double 10 month long round robin is a fallacy. I do find it interesting that the people who said NCAA soccer shouldn't be like the rest of the world for subs are now consistently saying... "stop being so American about ties and look at the rest of the world."

It's entertaining if nothing else. And hockey does play overtime. At least the NHL does. One 5 minute period of 3v3 in the reg season. Playoffs are different.

The thing is that you are convinced that I (and I guess some others) are being contradictory, and I'm confident you're being contradictory.  I don't care much about the international standards.  We bring that up because that was the basis of the limit subs argument, to make things more like "real soccer."

And Greg, great analysis, but one question since we are dealing with two options here in this discussion.  Is a draw after two OTs preferable to a draw after 90 minutes?  If so, why exactly?  The two OTs don't solve the "American tie problem" if no one scores.  Or would everyone prefer that regular season games have the two OTs followed by PKs to match American tastes?

[Ejay]

And hockey does play overtime. At least the NHL does. One 5 minute period of 3v3 in the reg season. Playoffs are different.

That's the model I've been proposing from my barstool. OT should be 9v9.

[stlawus]

The big problem is going to be pool C bids.  There's always been controversy over pool C bids, but now we're going to have lots problems in deciding which team with 5 or 6 draws deserves to get in over the others and I think it's going to cause even more deserving teams in getting snubbed.  We already see Rochester get in with 4 or 5 losses and several draws, now how do we reconcile multiple teams with similar records and SOS with the included factor of a pile of draws? I don't envy the committee but the mid majors of the D3 world I fear will get screwed even harder.

[Gregory Sager]

And Greg, great analysis, but one question since we are dealing with two options here in this discussion.  Is a draw after two OTs preferable to a draw after 90 minutes?  If so, why exactly?  The two OTs don't solve the "American tie problem" if no one scores.  Or would everyone prefer that regular season games have the two OTs followed by PKs to match American tastes?

Good question. I think that even those with American sensibilities have their limits. In football and hockey, two frenetic contact sports that are incredibly physically draining on players, it's possible to end in a tie after attempting to break the tie with overtime (although the NHL refuses to cave on its antipathy for ties, using a shootout if OT does not end the game, high school and college hockey still have ties). Basketball never ends in a tie, which I think is a plus in basketball's favor, even though the end of a three-overtime game can look like the short-pants equivalent of the Bataan Death March. But basketball players are much less likely to suffer a concussion or a broken arm or torn knee ligaments in that third overtime than a hockey or football player would after that much playing time. And, of course, the only real danger in playing seventeen innings of baseball is running out of players. I think that most fans get that certain sports go over the line in terms of risks to life and limb if played to excess.

But at least baseball and basketball are true to themselves by insisting upon a standard-rules overtime outcome*, rather than employ a gimmick like the shootout in hockey or starting drives at the 25-yard line the way that college football does (How would you do this in basketball? Play a game of H-O-R-S-E?). Then again, as I said, football and hockey are contact sports where exhaustion heightens the likelihood of serious injury.

But the point, I think, in the eyes of most American sports fans is that the governing organizations of their favorite sports are at least trying to rid themselves of ties. Even if they're not accomplishing that goal 100% of the time, they come close enough for the fans to live with the once-in-a-blue-moon tie. That's why I think that the typical American sports fan would welcome the two ten-minute overtimes in soccer, even if half of them (if Simple Coach's memory is correct) do end in a draw.

Penalty kicks? That's another matter. I think that fans tend to be split on the gimmickry of breaking ties in a manner other than the normal run of play. Some fans consider a shootout of any kind to be an abomination, whether in soccer or hockey, since it's not really the normal unfolding of the game itself. But soccer fans, unlike hockey fans, can at least claim that their version of a shootout is a distillation of a genuine (but static) element of their sport, the penalty kick. Nevertheless, it still feels alien to the game itself. The intrinsic beauty of soccer lies in the movement of multiple players on a large field, and the shootout has none of that. But what it does have is drama, and drama is a very important part of the appeal of sports. Speaking as someone who has called D3 tournament shootouts as a play-by-play broadcaster, I can vouch for the powerful tension and release involved in a team's entire season coming down to one penalty kick. But it still feels strangely out of place, like settling a knife fight with a hand of gin rummy.

* Don't get me started on pro baseball's new start-with-a-man-on-second-base-in-extra-innings rule.

[PaulNewman]

I hope my last point tonight.  There's been an idea that most draws happen between a superior and an inferior team and that the superior team because of inferior team parking the bus are at a disadvantage in a 90 min game.  I would assert that most draws happen between equals or near-equals where most of the time neither team wanted a draw....see NESCAC (Tufts vs Conn, Midd vs Amherst), UAA, etc.  Like tonight Wash Coll vs Catholic...which one was the favorite? I'd say neither.  0-0 Final.  Same with Drew and Western CT.

[Gregory Sager]

And hockey does play overtime. At least the NHL does. One 5 minute period of 3v3 in the reg season. Playoffs are different.

That's the model I've been proposing from my barstool. OT should be 9v9.

Yeah, I've heard that proposal made several times as well. One half-amusing, half-intriguing counterproposal I've heard is that goals should be made with adjustable pipes so that they could be enlarged vertically and/or horizontally in overtime periods, the idea being that a bigger goal would encourage shooting from farther out and make packed-in defenses a less optimal choice for a coach in an extra session.

[Maine Soccer Fan]

Sorry to be late to the conversation but has the NCAA released an explanation as to why the rule was changed? Do we know the aim of the elimination of OT?

[camosfan]

There was an interesting draw earlier between Wheaton and Williams, where Williams came from behind late to secure the draw, anything but a dull draw!

[Hopkins92]

I mentioned in the other thread that I had a lot on this topic swirling in my head and the American culture issue was one I just didn't have time to get into. I do mention that the rest of the world doesn't look at Draws as a problem to solve, and I guess I'll kind of leave it at that for the moment.

It's fairly annoying from an outside the US perspective to constantly want to tinker with a game that is older than a good chunk of the states in our Union.

A great example of this hubris is an American buying one of the biggest football clubs on the planet and immediately suggesting the EPL implement an All-Star game. Just... No, don't do that. Super insulting. Leave the game alone, please.

[Kuiper]

I mentioned in the other thread that I had a lot on this topic swirling in my head and the American culture issue was one I just didn't have time to get into. I do mention that the rest of the world doesn't look at Draws as a problem to solve, and I guess I'll kind of leave it at that for the moment.

It's fairly annoying from an outside the US perspective to constantly want to tinker with a game that is older than a good chunk of the states in our Union.

A great example of this hubris is an American buying one of the biggest football clubs on the planet and immediately suggesting the EPL implement an All-Star game. Just... No, don't do that. Super insulting. Leave the game alone, please.

The issue isn't really that Americans have problems with ties, although they may; rather, it's that Americans are fascinated with playoffs, even in sports without single tables.  That means that people have to vote on participants beyond the winners of each league and ties make it harder for voters.  Ties also are a pain for individual conferences in determining conference tournament qualifiers, but at least they have a set formula and a tie-breaker system, rather than requiring voters to compare individual teams across conferences.

To be fair, Europeans also have now fully adopted the American fascination with playoffs without single tables - they call it Champions and Europa Leagues and they started long before Americans became owners of European clubs.  Difference is that the Europeans simply decide how many spots each league gets, so no need for "voters" (which is facially neutral, but not surprisingly gives more spots for the historically "elite" leagues and thereby institutionalizes their elite status against their upstart competitors - an idea that American college football now at least partly uses for the Bowl Championship Series).  That still puts some pressure on ties, but the European seasons are much longer than the college soccer season, so some ties here or there aren't going to decide things over the long haul.

Bottom line (removing the American v. European commentary), ties would matter less in college soccer if there were more games and/or if there were only conference tournaments and not NCAA tournaments with some bids not based on a pure formula.

[Gregory Sager]

I wouldn't use the word "hubris" to describe the American attitude towards soccer. Lots of cultures put their own twist on sports. Canadian football is played on a bigger field, with an extra man per side, and with one fewer down per possession than American football. In Puerto Rican volleyball, the libero is not allowed to serve and there are only six substitutions permitted per set, as opposed to the fifteen substitutions permitted in American and international volleyball. Volleyball was invented in the U.S. (in a Massachusetts YMCA, to be exact), but I've never heard an American gripe about the exotic rules of voleibol puertorriqueño. I've already mentioned that Japanese baseball allows ties. Basketball? There is a bewildering variety of different rules from one country to another. Indeed, international rules are different than American rules -- and, remember, this is a sport invented in Springfield, MA, in the gym of what is now a D3 school -- which Americans notice when they watch the Olympics and see that, for example, the international basketball court is smaller than an NCAA or NBA basketball court.

I also wouldn't attach the presumptuous designs of one EPL-club-owning billionaire to his native country as a whole. On the contrary, I think that most American soccer fans respect the EPL for what it is and would not want to taint the inherent Englishness of its format.

I think it's perfectly fine if countries wish to tailor a sport to their own liking with regard to in-house competition under their own jurisdiction. The world would be an ugly place if FIBA could dictate to Ghanians when a bonus free throw could be awarded in Ghana's Sprite Ball national high school hoops tourney, or if FIFA had the power to demand that the NCAA alter its substitution rules. As long as everybody's on board with international rules when competition crosses borders, what's the problem?

(Also, tinkering with stuff invented by people in other countries, including everything from the automobile to pizza to denim to decaffeinated coffee to the electric battery, is kinda our thing as Americans. )

Bottom line (removing the American v. European commentary), ties would matter less in college soccer if there were more games and/or if there were only conference tournaments and not NCAA tournaments with some bids not based on a pure formula.

This.

[Hopkins92]

I mentioned in the other thread that I had a lot on this topic swirling in my head and the American culture issue was one I just didn't have time to get into. I do mention that the rest of the world doesn't look at Draws as a problem to solve, and I guess I'll kind of leave it at that for the moment.

It's fairly annoying from an outside the US perspective to constantly want to tinker with a game that is older than a good chunk of the states in our Union.

A great example of this hubris is an American buying one of the biggest football clubs on the planet and immediately suggesting the EPL implement an All-Star game. Just... No, don't do that. Super insulting. Leave the game alone, please.

The issue isn't really that Americans have problems with ties, although they may; rather, it's that Americans are fascinated with playoffs, even in sports without single tables. 

Maybe it's where I grew up (MI in the 70s), but I heard a boat load of stuff about how soccer was a communist sport because it allows/rewards ties.

I really like your post, overall and agree with much of it. But there is absolutely a stigma with many when it comes to ties... Kissing your sister and all that.

[SimpleCoach]

I mentioned in the other thread that I had a lot on this topic swirling in my head and the American culture issue was one I just didn't have time to get into. I do mention that the rest of the world doesn't look at Draws as a problem to solve, and I guess I'll kind of leave it at that for the moment.

It's fairly annoying from an outside the US perspective to constantly want to tinker with a game that is older than a good chunk of the states in our Union.

A great example of this hubris is an American buying one of the biggest football clubs on the planet and immediately suggesting the EPL implement an All-Star game. Just... No, don't do that. Super insulting. Leave the game alone, please.

The issue isn't really that Americans have problems with ties, although they may; rather, it's that Americans are fascinated with playoffs, even in sports without single tables. 

Maybe it's where I grew up (MI in the 70s), but I heard a boat load of stuff about how soccer was a communist sport because it allows/rewards ties.

I really like your post, overall and agree with much of it. But there is absolutely a stigma with many when it comes to ties... Kissing your sister and all that.

First day I walked onto campus at Mount Union, I was introduced to the AD who's first words to me "So you are the guy who plays that communist sport..." or some such.

SC.

[jknezek]

The illustrious Jack Kemp shortly after the U.S. was awarded the 1992 World Cup...

"I think it is important for all those young men out there, who someday hope to play real football, where you throw it and kick it and run with it and put it in your hands, a distinction should be made that football is democratic, capitalism, whereas soccer is a European socialist sport."
— Jack Kemp to Congress in 1988

Of course, Jack Kemp has a stadium named after him at Occidental College in California, his alma mater. Shame Oxy gave up football a few years ago and now Jack Kemp Stadium which encompasses W.C. Patterson Field is used for men's and women's soccer, lacrosse and field hockey.

Kind of poetic in a way.