Schools that Should Be Better

[Hopkins92]

I think it boils down to schools with a national or very strong regional footprint are able to attract and recruit at higher success rate. Quite frankly, I'm not really sure there's much of a debate, when strip it clear of focusing on the academic ranking or whatever. (And it's why places like Hood, Susquehanna and Salisbury struggle. They're barely a blip in their own state, let alone regionally and nationally.)

[4231CenterBack]

Re schools that are academic,  and therefore can attract students because of their stellar reputations-- yes, but the pool of top soccer players that also are at the top academically is not huge. Therefore while they can draw students towards them, they cannot recruit most soccer players. Swarthmore would be a great example:-)

I disagree. I think the consensus says that NESCSC and UAA are the two strongest conferences and they're certainly at the top of the academic heap.

And the NESCACs openly relax their admissions requirements to populate their sports teams.

Of course they do. But they cannot relax them beyond a certain point. High academic recruiting is something I know about, having gone through that journey for several years with my son.

Having worked in Higher Ed in New England I can tell you being a great athlete is a tremendous asset when trying to get into a high academic.  No dummies make it in but you'd be surprised.  I guess ultimately results on the field matter....and based on that it would appear that the NESCACs, UAAs and some others have something going for them 

[Gregory Sager]

As for North Park, Kedzie and Foster is not Old Town, Wrigleyville, or the Miracle Mile which happens to have been designated a high crime area.

First of all, it's the "Magnificent Mile", not the "Miracle Mile". The Miracle Mile is in Los Angeles.

Second, the Magnificent Mile is not a residential neighborhood. It's a shopping district. There are no residential colleges or universities on the Magnificent Mile. It's a high-crime area because of the breakdown of law and order with regard to property crime (in particular, organized theft rings) that would be the subject of a very different conversation than this one -- and which is endemic in large American cities, not just Chicago's Magnificent Mile.

Third, while you are quite correct that the North Park neighborhood isn't Old Town or Wrigleyville, that matters not a whit. NPU is a five-minute walk from the Brown Line el, which goes to Old Town and Wrigleyville (as well as a lot of other places, including the Loop) and connects to everything else, and there are also three buslines within that five-minute walk that can likewise take you into myriad other neighborhoods (some hip, some not-so-hip). In other words, the fact that the North Park neighborhood itself is a relatively sleepy bedroom community is irrelevant when you have public transportation available at your doorstep to take you wherever you want to go in minutes. (Plus, Lincoln Square, one of the trendiest and liveliest neighborhoods on the North Side, is within walking distance of NPU.)

Fourth, the only college or university located in a high-end neighborhood in Chicago is DePaul, which is located in Lincoln Park -- so if actually being located within tony environs was the selling point involved (which it isn't), there would only be one school in the city that could claim that distinction.

There are Christian schools outside the city in beautiful areas including Wheaton and Augustana.

You're seriously misinformed if you're classifying Augustana as a "Christian school", as that term is popularly understood in the United States. It's a nominally Lutheran institution that has, at best, a vestigial attachment to institutional Christianity and a limited, unobtrusive on-campus faith atmosphere. In fact, Augustana is very much known for being a "party school" with a high-profile frat presence on campus.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up the topic of Christian schools located outside of Chicago, anyway.

Augustana has Swedish roots and yet has an abysmal record

Schools founded by Swedish immigrants are supposed to automatically be good at soccer? Good news for NPU and Gustavus Adolphus, but it's going to come as some surprise not only to Augie but to Bethany College as well.

and a roster that doesn't include a bunch of Scandinavian impact players.

Not for lack of trying; Mick Regan has imported a number of Scandinavians over the past few seasons in his thus-far-fruitless attempts to bring soccer competence to a campus where, for reasons I'd love to hear you explain, good soccer is supposed to be a birthright. Their impact has been negligible. Is there a statute of limitations on Swedish colleges being good at soccer? After all, Augie was founded in 1860 (older than GAC by two years). Or perhaps they've lost the magic kanelbulle recipe that turns ordinary Swedes into Zlatan Ibrahimovic.

Same thing with Millikin, Carroll, and North Central, all of whom have imported several Scandinavian international players in recent years with little or no success. Where NCC is having better luck at the moment is with Italian players -- there's some really impressive Italian freshmen among this season's Cardinals -- which makes sense, given that North Central's head coach, Enzo Fuschino, is himself an Italian immigrant.

Dubuque is probably the midwestern D3 outfit aside from NPU that has had the most success with a Swede-heavy lineup.

North Park has done a remarkable job recruiting internationals and should be commended for it.  That being said, I would list it as one of the top over-achievers in men's D3 soccer.

That would've been true two decades ago, when NPU became good enough to compete with Wheaton and rose to the ranks of respectable regional power (i.e., a team that couldn't get out of the first weekend of the D3 tourney), but now it's no longer true. NPU isn't overachieving anymore, because the program has been good enough for long enough to sustain itself as a destination program. A lot of kids who would get playing time at other small-college programs in the tri-state area walk on or basically recruit themselves to NPU nowadays. And NPU is a known commodity in the realm of Scandinavian youth soccer, as a number of Vikings soccer alumni now work for sports academies and scouting services in Norway and Sweden and don't hesitate to tip off the Vikings coaches to a high-level prospect while selling the school to the kid on their own end. (It certainly doesn't hurt that NPU's head coach is himself a Swede.)

North Park might've even arguably been called an overachiever as recently as 2017 when the Vikings made it to the national championship game. But they've now reached the second weekend in three of the last four tournaments, and they've been a mainstay of the two national polls. North Park is not an overachiever anymore.

[Gregory Sager]

When you read the rosters of some of the highest end colleges they are flooded with kids from some of the most elite prep schools in the United States.  This is not to say that there isn't a huge industry that caters to this demographic for some obvious reasons like $$$, but the amount of focus on it I think tends to yield a very distorted picture.

This. Very much, this.

[camosfan]

Are people surprised that the" pay to play" system present in the US youth system creates the type of college landscape we currently witnessing? The recruiting is really easy for the elite schools, top players are largely at top academic high schools, from upper income families that don't need financial aid.

[Gregory Sager]

Agree on that.  Also totally disagree with Greg's take on soccer not being a thinking man's sport.  Here is just one description of the game--"Soccer is 90 minutes of system-thinking in action. Success relies on dispersed decision-making, constant communication, and the commitment of an entire team to a single system to reach a common goal. It is also the most popular sport in the world."  American football has set plays, baseball has standard responses to pretty much every scenario, and basketball is far less fluid than soccer.  I would submit that the reason why the NESCAC and UAA are successful in most sports is because their academic prowess has caused them to attract top athletes.  That doesn't mean that among the various sports soccer doesn't require the most thinking.

This makes no sense, for several reasons. First of all, you're aware that soccer is a working-man's and poor man's sport around the world, right? Right? Where's the "academic prowess" on the Brazilian national team? How many English Premier League players graduated at the top of their high-school class? Do you think that Bundesliga locker rooms are rife with hearty debates over Kantian deontology or the importance of "transformation of consciousness" in the Expressionst plays of Ernst Toller?

You should've just stopped at "The reason why the NESCAC and UAA are successful in most sports is because their academic prowess has caused them to attract top athletes," which has the virtue of being true, rather than postulating some connection between soccer and high-end intellect, which is completely spurious.

Fencing, squash, and equestrian (dressage, show-jumping, etc.) are also activities traditionally dominated by the upper classes in the United States. I suppose that each of those activities shows a correspondence to high intelligence as well, right?

I guess that if I really want my kid to succeed in the classroom I should tell him to put down the book and go pick up a croquet mallet.

[WUPHF]

Those schools with off the charts academics should be able to attract quality players both domestic and international. 

I am curious, are there examples of off the charts academics that recruit internationals well?  With students who would, in many cases, choose to pay tuition rather than staying home or going Division II?

Amherst!

8-9 international students including the Bermuda, the UK, Australia, Lithuania and Cypress.  Thanks, that is a good example.

[deutschfan]

Glad I didn't touch too many nerves Greg.  You are right about the name Magnificent Mile although it is certainly one of the city's attractions as a commercial area and is the home of the one of the best art schools in the country.  It is also unusual that a city's crown jewel of shopping has an out of control crime problem.  There are schools other than DePaul in affluent areas of Chicago, most notably the current number one team in the country in Hyde Park, and if we are including D1, Northwestern in bordering Evanston has an incredibly beautiful campus and is a short L ride from the best Chicago has to offer., and Loyola University is right on the lake.  NPU has achieved great results, far better than I would have expected given its JC roots and urban northwest Chicago location.  Kudos to its players and coaches.

[camosfan]

Those schools with off the charts academics should be able to attract quality players both domestic and international. 

I am curious, are there examples of off the charts academics that recruit internationals well?  With students who would, in many cases, choose to pay tuition rather than staying home or going Division II?

Amherst!

8-9 international students including the Bermuda, the UK, Australia, Lithuania and Cypress.  Thanks, that is a good example.

You meant Cyprus? think they also have a kid from Singapore!

[Maine Soccer Fan]

Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

[WUPHF]

You meant Cyprus? think they also have a kid from Singapore!

Indeed I did.

There is a kid with a Pennsylvania home town who went to school in Singapore.  I feel like there have a number of Americans who go to international schools on elite university rosters over the years.

[camosfan]

Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

There are kids from public schools, but those towns have comparable schools to the Preps, specialized public schools are another big supplier of students.

[Maine Soccer Fan]

Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

There are kids from public schools, but those towns have comparable schools to the Preps, specialized public schools are another big supplier of students.

You mean like maybe Greenwich, CT....where my wife grew up?

[Kuiper]

I think it boils down to schools with a national or very strong regional footprint are able to attract and recruit at higher success rate. Quite frankly, I'm not really sure there's much of a debate, when strip it clear of focusing on the academic ranking or whatever. (And it's why places like Hood, Susquehanna and Salisbury struggle. They're barely a blip in their own state, let alone regionally and nationally.)

Totally agree with this.  Academic ranking, as filtered through US News etc, is the most common way these national reputations develop because the rankings are easily accessible and broadly distributed and many people will travel away from home for college in search of academic prestige, but there are others.  For example, schools with strong religious missions (e.g., Calvin, Messiah, and Yeshiva) likely have strong brand names with people who are members of the same religious movement and perhaps schools with strong social justice missions (maybe Vassar and Oberlin) have the same network effect.  Alternatively, on a micro-level, reputations can develop in small pockets like individual high schools or soccer clubs if that high school/club has sent a number of its graduates to a particular college who then return to sing its praises. 

One way to raise a school's national reputation is athletic success, which translates into enrollment growth and is sometimes called the "Flutie Effect," although a more modern example would be Gonzaga in Spokane, Washington.  D3 Men's soccer probably doesn't have the same effect (for example, I'm assuming Washington College didn't experience a noticeable rise in applications that can be traced to its run to the third round of the NCAA tourney last year, assuming that was not expected).  Nevertheless, it might help push students in that sport to consider that school for that sport when they had never heard of it before and wouldn't necessarily consider it because it's outside of their region.

So, for me, I'm really using academic prestige as a proxy for something the school has that should make it easier for them to recruit nationally or regionally rather than just locally.  That's not the only reason a soccer program should be better, but it certainly gives coaches a leg up in making it better.

[paclassic89]

Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

I'm not sure there is any correlation here.  I haven't gone through the bios on any of the D3 NESCAC rosters but I picked Duke as an example because it also has a lot of recruited players from prep schools and the majority are listed as playing some form of MLS Academy or comparable in high school.  Likely you would see similar from top D3 programs.  Players aren't getting top tier soccer training from prep schools.  They're going to prep schools and are also competing on academy teams.