Schools that Should Be Better

[PaulNewman]

https://camelathletics.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster

Wonder why they list all of the ECNL and MLS NEXT clubs on the roster.  Surely just putting the school would suffice to let prospective recruits know the quality of the program

I agree with you.  The other part, the prep school part, is the desired accompaniment.  They go hand in hand in the world of elite resume building.

[Gregory Sager]

Glad I didn't touch too many nerves Greg.

Only the nerves involved in shaking my head.

You are right about the name Magnificent Mile

Well, of course I am. I'd be a pretty sorry Chicagoan if I couldn't properly name the most infamous tourist district in my hometown, wouldn't I?

although it is certainly one of the city's attractions as a commercial area and is the home of the one of the best art schools in the country.

Incorrect. The School of the Art Institute of Chicago is in the Loop, not on the Magnificent Mile. In other words, the SAIC is south of the Chicago River on Michigan Avenue, whereas the Magnificent Mile stretches north from the river to Oak Street Beach.

It is also unusual that a city's crown jewel of shopping has an out of control crime problem.

It's not unusual at all, sadly. As I said, property crime has become endemic in America's major cities, particularly but not exclusively in the high-end shopping districts. It's even worse than Chicago in places like San Francisco and Los Angeles.

There are schools other than DePaul in affluent areas of Chicago, most notably the current number one team in the country in Hyde Park,

Hyde Park is not a particularly affluent neighborhood, although it isn't poor, either. It caters to a community with lots of academic types (i.e., people who don't make money hand-over-fist). And even the higher-end housing within Hyde Park is always just a stone's throw from the 'hood.

and if we are including D1, Northwestern in bordering Evanston has an incredibly beautiful campus and is a short L ride from the best Chicago has to offer.,

Yes, it does. But Evanston isn't Chicago, so it doesn't count.

and Loyola University is right on the lake.

Yep. But that part of Rogers Park isn't exactly a destination neighborhood for yuppies. I'll never forget when my youngest brother and his wife moved into an apartment in South Rogers Park, two blocks from the Loyola campus, with the help of me and our parents. Right up the street I watched a crack deal take place in broad daylight on the sidewalk. I was horrified, but, fortunately my mother either missed it or was too naive to recognize what was happening.

NPU has achieved great results, far better than I would have expected given its JC roots and urban northwest Chicago location.  Kudos to its players and coaches.

Every sequoia began as a seedling.

[paclassic89]

It's crazy how this thread got so derailed.  Look, there is an academic and personal growth advantage to going to a prep school obviously.  The soccer instruction is also good enough and re: the recruiting aspect, there is probably a higher chance of playing with other decent players as opposed to a public high school.  My point was the youth soccer pipeline is at a point in this country where the most impactful development is coming from the MLS Academies and other top tier clubs.  I didn't think there was much to debate on that point but I guess I was wrong.  This will be my last post on the topic.

Another addendum, this thread has become nauseatingly elitist at points. 

[camosfan]

It's crazy how this thread got so derailed.  Look, there is an academic and personal growth advantage to going to a prep school obviously.  The soccer instruction is also good enough and re: the recruiting aspect, there is probably a higher chance of playing with other decent players as opposed to a public high school.  My point was the youth soccer pipeline is at a point in this country where the most impactful development is coming from the MLS Academies and other top tier clubs.  I didn't think there was much to debate on that point but I guess I was wrong.  This will be my last post on the topic.

Another addendum, this thread has become nauseatingly elitist at points.

The club system is not less elitist than prep schools, I have seen a lot of kids who can play at top clubs and even with free tuition they can't afford the 6000 -8000 per year for travelling.

[4231CenterBack]

It's crazy how this thread got so derailed.  Look, there is an academic and personal growth advantage to going to a prep school obviously.  The soccer instruction is also good enough and re: the recruiting aspect, there is probably a higher chance of playing with other decent players as opposed to a public high school.  My point was the youth soccer pipeline is at a point in this country where the most impactful development is coming from the MLS Academies and other top tier clubs.  I didn't think there was much to debate on that point but I guess I was wrong.  This will be my last post on the topic.

Another addendum, this thread has become nauseatingly elitist at points.

All in good fun     My kid is a public school kid who played MLS NEXT who is NOT going to a NESCACish institution.  So I have no skin in this game!

[SierraFD3soccer]

https://camelathletics.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster

Wonder why they list all of the ECNL and MLS NEXT clubs on the roster.  Surely just putting the school would suffice to let prospective recruits know the quality of the program

About 6 or 7 years ago, top level soccer prospects (or kids/parents who thought they were) were urged to move from the prep/high school soccer system (much like college and in most cases= super compressed schedules and poorly coached high school teams) to developmental academy systems where they play 8 or 9 months a year with games stretched out and with, in theory, better professional coaching.  While this was happening, top or even mediocre prospects were not allowed to play high school soccer.  So while they went to HS/prep school obviously, they did not play for their high schools/prep schools.  You will generally see this for all D1 programs now and some D3 programs have adopted this.

Top D1 and many top D3 programs now really only recruit from these DA programs which is why they list their DA clubs on the roster.  They never or only shortly played high school soccer.  No college coach goes to HS game to see prospect play.

This is all a generalization and there are many exceptions. Our son was one part of one the last really good club team that played on a club that allowed kids to play HS soccer (only because the club had many Balt. prep coaches).  From the '99 and '00 year group teams, all but one went to D1 programs ranging from Maryland, Navy, Air Force and many in between. The one that did not was big contributor to Tufts. He could have gone with a DA in Balt or DC, but really liked HS and it players, plus his coach ran Coerver for Maryland. So not your usual HS coach.

We were fortunate to be in the Baltimore area and we had a Coever coach for our son's high school.  Many of the better coaches for club are Balt. private school coaches.  So once the private school season ended immediately the couple of top clubs started with the same players.

[paclassic89]

It's crazy how this thread got so derailed.  Look, there is an academic and personal growth advantage to going to a prep school obviously.  The soccer instruction is also good enough and re: the recruiting aspect, there is probably a higher chance of playing with other decent players as opposed to a public high school.  My point was the youth soccer pipeline is at a point in this country where the most impactful development is coming from the MLS Academies and other top tier clubs.  I didn't think there was much to debate on that point but I guess I was wrong.  This will be my last post on the topic.

Another addendum, this thread has become nauseatingly elitist at points.

The club system is not less elitist than prep schools, I have seen a lot of kids who can play at top clubs and even with free tuition they can't afford the 6000 -8000 per year for travelling.

This is absolutely a major problem and one that needs to be addressed if the US ever wants to make the next step forward in competing internationally. 

[camosfan]

https://camelathletics.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster

Wonder why they list all of the ECNL and MLS NEXT clubs on the roster.  Surely just putting the school would suffice to let prospective recruits know the quality of the program

About 6 or 7 years ago, top level soccer prospects (or kids/parents who thought they were) were urged to move from the prep/high school soccer system (much like college and in most cases= super compressed schedules and poorly coached high school teams) to developmental academy systems where they play 8 or 9 months a year with games stretched out and with, in theory, better professional coaching.  While this was happening, top or even mediocre prospects were not allowed to play high school soccer.  So while they went to HS/prep school obviously, they did not play for their high schools/prep schools.  You will generally see this for all D1 programs now and some D3 programs have adopted this.

Top D1 and many top D3 programs now really only recruit from these DA programs which is why they list their DA clubs on the roster.  They never or only shortly played high school soccer.  No college coach goes to HS game to see prospect play.

This is all a generalization and there are many exceptions. Our son was one part of one the last really good club team that played on a club that allowed kids to play HS soccer (only because the club had many Balt. prep coaches).  From the '99 and '00 year group teams, all but one went to D1 programs ranging from Maryland, Navy, Air Force and many in between. The one that did not was big contributor to Tufts. He could have gone with a DA in Balt or DC, but really liked HS and it players, plus his coach ran Coerver for Maryland. So not your usual HS coach.

We were fortunate to be in the Baltimore area and we had a Coever coach for our son's high school.  Many of the better coaches for club are Balt. private school coaches.  So once the private school season ended immediately the couple of top clubs started with the same players.

The academies coach tell public school kids ,that if they play high school they can't play for the club but they are much more flexible with the prep school kids.

[SierraFD3soccer]

Back on topic, maybe.

We are asking why schools should be better.  Maybe a different way to look at it would possibly be looking at what a make a good program good?  And then look at why programs, which were good, have fallen.

IMO there are maybe three things that program has to at least have to be successful

1. A committed coach to one school who has integrity, soccer sense (naturally) and is a leader.  Further he has to be able to judge soccer talent and create a culture young men can become a part of.  In other words a positive culture for the team and everything surrounding it.
2. Facilities - a decent Field, access to weight room, competent trainers, trainer room.  College location might play a part here, but many kids are adaptable. 
3. Resources - Able to hire at least 2 competent asst. coaches who can effectively recruit. College admin support.  Along with this (and this may be as important) - an engaged alumni network that is committed to support the program financially as well as open to mentorship (soccer, summer and post college careers as well).

I think most successful programs have all three and perhaps even more as well. 

So where do the schools that should be better fall into these categories? I am guessing that coach that satisfies most of #1, but only has part of 2 and 3 then the program might succeed for a bit, but will most likely fall off.

Several maybe examples mentioned is board with the caveat that I don't know a lot about these programs -

1. Haverford - had a good coach who had success, but he left after in 2018 I think.  The field was disaster then and still is.
2. Muhlenberg - has a really, really bad field, but has had some success this year (made the Cent. Conf. playoffs, tied Hopkins - sorry Hopkins92, and has scored the most goals in the conference. Don't really know much about the coach other than his bio - successful until 2014 and it just fell off until recently.
3. Dickenson - second year coach
4. Ursinus - had some success last year - beat Hopkins (sorry again Hopkins92), but coach left the program in the lurch in May of this year.

[Another Mom]

That's because prep school has required sports. The kids can't go to prep school if they don't play. I can't speak to every school but the NEPSAC schools require sports (or equivalent activity,  like theater or working on the school farm). Which is why Black Rock was started by the former coach at Berkshire. Prep school kids can't fit in with a normal club soccer schedule,  can't make most practices etc. So Black Rock only played in tournaments,  no leagues. They played some MLS Next teams. They would have internal showcases (so, only Black Rock teams)  with 50-75 coaches from places like Stanford,  Dartmouth,  Harvard, Duke etc as well as D3s like Amherst, Connecticut College etc.

I do not know if the club still has its prep school arm, as it's also branched into residential academies and might be stretched thin.

*and by prep school, I'm talking about boarding school, not private day schools

[Maine Soccer Fan]

I guess I need to clarify a little.

Prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player in the same way they are great places to secure one's financial future. They facilitate (rather than hinder) playing at top clubs, they provide athletic training and excellent facilities, in the NE they play in competitive leagues, and they get you in the "selective" college pipeline.

I don't remember saying that they're better than residential academies...

And PN, thanks for your post. One of my favorite cocktail party games is to go as long as I can without asking someone where he works or where she went to college. I avoid asking the second for as long as I can when getting to know someone.

[WUPHF]

But that part of Rogers Park isn't exactly a destination neighborhood for yuppies. I'll never forget when my youngest brother and his wife moved into an apartment in South Rogers Park, two blocks from the Loyola campus, with the help of me and our parents. Right up the street I watched a crack deal take place in broad daylight on the sidewalk. I was horrified, but, fortunately my mother either missed it or was too naive to recognize what was happening.

Rogers Park and Edgewater along the lake are great neighborhoods.

And yuppies love Metropolis Coffee.

They are affluent neighborhoods by my standards, but I work in education so the baristas probably make more than I do.

It is a shame that they bulldozed the on-campus soccer field to build a smaller multipurpose field only to rent a field from one of the parish schools a mile away or whatever the arrangement is.

[College Soccer Observer]

Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

Middlebury has a large majority of its roster who did not attend New England Prep schools. 
If you take their normal starting lineup:
Deerfield IL HS
New Trier HS (IL)
Suffield HS (CT)
U New Hampshire (transfer)
Durham Academy (NC)
Seton Hall Prep (NJ--Catholic School)
South Kent School (CT--Prep school)
England
Niles North HS (IL)
Bullis School (MD--private school)
Sacred Heart Prep (CA--Catholic School)

[Maine Soccer Fan]

Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

Middlebury has a large majority of its roster who did not attend New England Prep schools. 
If you take their normal starting lineup:
Deerfield IL HS
New Trier HS (IL)
Suffield HS (CT)
U New Hampshire (transfer)
Durham Academy (NC)
Seton Hall Prep (NJ--Catholic School)
South Kent School (CT--Prep school)
England
Niles North HS (IL)
Bullis School (MD--private school)
Sacred Heart Prep (CA--Catholic School)

Half of those listed above are prep schools. Two have it in their name. Who's limiting the conversation to New England prep schools?

[Ejay]

FFS, can we take the prep school/NESCAC conversation to its own thread already? WTF???