Big Dance 2022 - Let's Go!

[Hopkins92]

After the pens, and F&M player seemed to sprint over to the Oneonta bench resulting in numerous cards and some sort of fight. Tough way to end your season.

Still hoping someone with some insight can chime in on the end of the F&M game. Sure got surly during and (I guess) after the shootout.

[PaulNewman]

I'm laughing Saint_Dad, because you've summed up about a decade worth of complaints (and both sides of the debate) about Amherst's soccer program, if you scroll through the archives of the NESCAC board.  On the one hand, the coach's personality, the rough / ugly style of play, and the field all receive, to put it mildly, very little love throughout NESCAC (and broader D3 circles, when they are exposed).  But on the other, Amherst wins big and does so consistently, brings in great players consistently, and the players seem (unlike the rest of the league) to enjoy playing for him.  Part of it can be attributed to the fact that it's never fun to lose consistently to any team, but on the other hand, Williams, Midd, Conn and especially Tufts have all had championship eras lead by HOF-caliber coaches over the past 30 years, and there was never the same sort of animosity directed towards any of those programs.  In short, it works for Amherst, but doesn't make a lot of friends outside of Amherst.

Yes, the complaints about Amherst have been detailed and entirely consistent from a range of sources for well over 10+ years.  You can't ask people to un-see and un-hear what they see and hear, often numerous times over.  And the Amherst program and its fans will concede nothing.  In that sense they are impenetrable and nearly cultish.

Saint-Dad, you're right, SLU could not have had a more disastrous start.  And then even with a one goal right away within the first five minutes the Amherst players, bench, and especially the coach were throwing tantrums on almost every foul call.  They tried to rough up everybody but especially Sibanda.  So then you're in a bind about how to defend yourself, how to combat what's happening, and then you unwittingly try to match them and get out of your own game.  ten Cate is a histrionic thespian...on literally almost every single call...one minute taking someone out and another minute writhing on the ground in agony.  And then even #8 and some others were mock-clapping Sibanda.  Just insufferable behavior and very painful to watch.  It's a bit like Messiah in a different kind of way....insofar as you get get so focused on the opponent and how difficult it is play them that you're almost immediately not playing your own game.

And then afterwards, Serpone sounds like a perfectly reasonable and even generous and gracious man, praising the opponent, praising SLU coach, praising Sibanda, praising how well SLU held the ball, etc.  You can see what recruits and parents would be infatuated.  And the same with the players.  The contrast is remarkable, stunning, and confusing...making you almost question if what you saw is what you saw.  And I've seen Serpone do this after a loss as well.  If you get a chance click on the video on the front of the Amherst soccer website. 

You SLU folks should feel proud.  At 3-0 I thought there was zero chance SLU was going to stay in the game, but they did.  Showed a lot of character and eventually a very skilled, attractive style.

Now one thing I don't understand is why the Amherst bench doesn't get more yellows.  I saw a lot of teams getting coach and bench yellows for far less.  Maybe they do and I I've missed it but one wonders if the refs adjust ot Amherst as well....like ref fatigue where they say we're not going to call fouls past 25....or at a minimum the bar moves and what is considered egregious moves.

[Hopkins92]

Now one thing I don't understand is why the Amherst bench doesn't get more yellows.  I saw a lot of teams getting coach and bench yellows for far less.  Maybe they do and I I've missed it but one wonders if the refs adjust ot Amherst as well....like ref fatigue where they say we're not going to call fouls past 25....or at a minimum the bar moves and what is considered egregious moves.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The bench antics are very purposeful, there's just no question that this not just encouraged but very much part of their overall strategy. It's chaos soccer and an extremely obnoxious bench is the fuel to the engine.

I really don't understand how a coach is allowed to chirp at the ref like that. I would be all over the 4th official about that. It's very clearly against the rules of the game.

[Ejay]

Personally, I find Amherst unwatchable. I was forced into watching this weekend because I wanted to see SLU play. I had to turn it off after 20 minutes. I don't have a horse in that race and just couldn't stomach any more than I did.  I have Amherst in my Final 4 because I think their style works for them, but I won't be watching any more of their games. It's just not enjoyable to me.

[Saint_Dad]

St Lawrence 2 Amherst 4

Sadly work interfered with my viewing in part, but I came away with nothing but respect for the way Saints play and the pro-Saints posters have every reason to be proud of their team. Nevertheless, it's not the first time Amherst has started hot and on the first goal, there were two other players who were ready to score.  The 3-0 scoreline was as much about momentum and Saints really took over about 30 minutes in and at 3-1, I felt nervous, knowing the potency of their attack. The 4th Amherst goal calmed the nerves, but everyone knew it wasn't going to finish 4-1.

4-2 not long into the second half and the Saints' tails were up and the Mammoths were pushed back.  It wasn't always pretty, but ultimately in my clearly biased view it felt like there wasn't lots of dangerous play in Amherst's area.  But of course, it only takes a moment to change that and Saints clearly have players who can unlock that particular door.  Amherst did create chances too and ultimately were rewarded for the ones they did take

Not sure what comes next and it's hard to believe we have seen the last of the upsets. 

Foul count was 26/12 and 4/3 in yellows, well above pace for Amherst.

I was on the RPI team that played Amherst in the Elite 8 in 2019 and had an eerily similar experience. I had never really seen anything like the intensity that Amherst brought to every aspect of the game. My impression of Serpone was that he was kind of an a-hole but that he had his guys firing on all cylinders and operating at their most intimidating. When we played them it was like 40 degees, pouring down rain, their grass field as essentially an unplayable mudpit, but these guys were fired up and swaggering. They had this palpable arrogance about them, like they knew they were the #2 team in the country and they were going to put us down, it was unreal. They scored their first goal and the kid did like a 15 foot knee slide right in front of our bench, and it was just over at that point.

They actually moved the game to the turf at halftime (don't get me started) and we got a goal back and arguably had the run of play in our favor the last 55 minutes or so, but I've got firsthand experience of seeing how their mentality, reputation, and intensity can catch teams off guard and get you boat-raced before you even know what hit you, even in a massively important match. I'm assuming it's a NESCAC thing, that the rivalries there are so intense and the conference is so high-quality that a) the intensity is just at peak levels and b) the top NESCAC teams come out of that conference with a certainty that they're better than anything else in the country has to offer.

Yes LL_Alum. 
Very similar situation.  SLU seemed to be intimidated from the start (even the coach), with two starters from Saturday's game sitting, most likely because of their size, or lack of.  A tall freshman defender who had only played in 7 games all year, was sent to the wolves (mammoths)  because of his 6'3" frame.  The poor kid immediately got beat and made a desperate slide tackle and yellow card foul right outside the box which led to first goal just 1:20 seconds into the game.  His NCAA game lasted all of 80 seconds as he seemed to pull his hamstring (was on crutches from the sidelines the rest of the game) and was helped off the field by the fouled player and good sportsman Ada Okorogheye.
The intimidation, physical size, and constant fouling and some dirty play was not something that SLU was used to.  It took 30 minutes and a 3-0 scoreline to wake the SLU players, who could have been very sleepy from being woken up, and made to go outside from the 4am fire alarm at their hotel.  Amherst also led in fouls, 26-12.  They led 1-0 in kicking a player when on the ground (Laurens ten Cate).  The refs let them play and they still got 26 fouls, to SLU's 12.  A quicker whistle would certainly have helped SLU.  Multiple fouls by players don't seem to give yellow cards either.  When SLU finally did wake up it was a great game to watch.  SLU played their hearts out.  This was probably the worst matchup in the NCAAs they could have had.  Amherst on their narrow grass field.  I would have given SLU a great shot against any other team in the NCAAs and truly believed, with a little luck, that they could have gone to the final weekend.  Once SLU realized that their talent and technical stills can outplay the size and physicality of Amherst, they were able to outplay them but were not able to put enough goals in the net.  The shorter defender came in and played a great game.  Miles Levy eventually came in and got an assist on a beautiful SLU goal that involved about 6 link up passes until finally a beautiful finish by their Dutch striker.
I'm curious what others think about a style that seems to work for Amherst.  Take a narrow grass field.  Keep the grass long.  Foul constantly and physically intimidate as the refs won't give yellows for accumulation. I believe Amherst leads the county in fouls with 332.  The average for the rest of Nescac teams is just under 200. Of course this ends up in ugly soccer but the name of the game is winning right?  Is this a problem?  Is this a problem with soccer?  Is this a problem with how soccer is refereed?  Is this not a problem at all?  The Amherst coach plays within the rules and wins games.  He is rewarded with winning for using this style of play.  He uses his home field to his advantage.  So why wouldn't he continue?   
How I would have loved to watch the game on their turf field, or any wider field, with a faster whistle.  I actually thought the refs were ok. But with so many fouls and then walking over and kicking a player on the ground, there should be red. 
I hope I don't sound like a sore loser, as SLU knew what they were up against and the coach and players needed to be confident that their talent, toughness and style of play was good enough to beat a bigger, kick, run, and foul team.  Believe me, Amherst is very talented and could easily play a game that shows it off. 
Would love to hear some thoughts?

I have to say I didn't see the kick, so I can't comment on that.  I was also surprised that the grass field wasn't in the really bad shape that I assumed it would be, although there was some amount of slipping and sliding by players on both teams.  The fouling and the general antagonistic play by Amherst, though - makes me respect that team and coach less.

Case in point is a play from Saturday I'm surprised nobody has mentioned yet - the yellow card on Amherst #17.  #17 got the ball on the wing and controlled it with his hand, the sideline ref immediately signaled a hand ball and the whistle blew and a good 3-4 seconds after the whistle #17 absolutely blasted a shot at the Husson goalie.  And then #17 ran into the goalie and roughed him up - yellow card for #17.  Complete bush league play, but that kind of play seems to be almost accepted by the Amherst coach.

From what I've heard I wouldn't say its accepted.  I'd say its encouraged and rewarded.  Refs seem to be intimidated and don't have the balls to hand out the yellows or reds.  Serpone was smart enough to get 17 out of the game right after that as that play alone was worthy of two yellows.  If the refs don't control the game by handing out the fouls and yellows, and intimidation from the bench, then its tough to play soccer when the other team is allowed to play rugby.  Very, very frustrating.

[Another Mom]

And then afterwards, Serpone sounds like a perfectly reasonable and even generous and gracious man, praising the opponent, praising SLU coach, praising Sibanda, praising how well SLU held the ball, etc.  You can see what recruits and parents would be infatuated.  And the same with the players.  The contrast is remarkable, stunning, and confusing...making you almost question if what you saw is what you saw.  And I've seen Serpone do this after a loss as well.  If you get a chance click on the video on the front of the Amherst soccer website. 

I think you've summed it up @paulnewman. Serpone's recruiting is a well oiled machine -- the biggest and best, most organized we came across. My son got a lot of love -- a couple of visits to campus, numerous calls and texts from Serpone -- by far the most from any program. In the end, my son didn't get an offer. My point is that Serpone expends a huge effort on recruiting.  I can only imagine the amount lavished on a top recruit! It's head-turning! Or, as you say, infatuation. If he got an offer my son probably would have gone, despite not loving the style of play, and the pre-game locker room hype that he saw.

Off the field, I think both Coach Serpone and his players are gentlemen and good people. As others have said, they also have the skill to play beautiful soccer, not the thuggish style they have. I can't comment on the field antics as I have no experience with them.

[nescacfan94]

How about we end this conversation, or move it the the NESCAC board?! Nothing new here, it's the same old trope, and giving them the airtime is what they want. Until the refs grow a set and put an end to games of 26-12 fouls, 4/3 cards, this will continue. Or perhaps the Amherst President grows a conscience and decides it isn't worth winning this way. Until one of those things happens, let's talk about soccer, not whatever it is Amherst plays.

[EnmoreCat]

How about we end this conversation, or move it the the NESCAC board?! Nothing new here, it's the same old trope, and giving them the airtime is what they want. Until the refs grow a set and put an end to games of 26-12 fouls, 4/3 cards, this will continue. Or perhaps the Amherst President grows a conscience and decides it isn't worth winning this way. Until one of those things happens, let's talk about soccer, not whatever it is Amherst plays.

Yes, the sheer thrill of it, that's what I turn up for.  My part time gig is as an Amfluencer, paid for by the Ammentions.  It's been a cracking year.

[PaulNewman]

A few impressions, mostly skipping my quad of greatest interest...

Not the best year to be undefeated...W CT didn't get in and Messiah and North Central are out (with the first two still unbeaten)

Kudos to Oneonta St.  I doubted them and doubted they would advance past Tufts and clearly I was very wrong.  I know Tufts wasn't as talented and experienced as in recent past years but they are still tough to break down and a lot to handle.

If Oneonta plays Amherst they should be more prepared than most, and the Tufts game should help as will the Bowdoin game if they get by Bowdoin.  The Polar Bears obviously know Amherst well.  So assuming MW can't trouble Amherst much at least the Mammoths will have to get through Oneonta or Bowdoin.

Shoutout to St Thomas.  The Celts made a splash early, went off the radar just a bit for a while, but they've only lost one game all year.  In Sweet 16 in very first NCAA D3 tournament.

GAC and St Olaf both get through very difficult games and now have a conference final rematch.  Heartbreak for North Central but the Cardinals had a phenomenal season.  UWEC showed well and took GAC to the brink.  Is there a better GK name in the country than Spencer Banks?

Chicago did what it needed to do and now has the full weight of tournament favorite all by themselves....which I think they will handle just fine.

I think like a few others, I made a mess of the Stevens quad.  Stevens wasn't necessarily convincing, but they advanced and that's the bottom line.  Not sure in hindsight why so many of us picked Middlebury here.  The Rowan game was a toss-up game but a toss-game that I thought Midd would win.  And Rowan might have deserved better with the Ducks game.

I did not see Catholic emerging but I also didn't trust CNU in a big spot.  Great weekend for the Catholic program.

Catholic gets Hopkins next and that just seems like a bridge too far.  Hopkins has got some nice momentum and now has a golden opportunity to reach the final 4.  I would expect a potential Stevens-Hopkins clash to go down the wire with Hop's newfound offensive punch perhaps the difference.  Cortland can score but will they be able to score on Stevens and then probably Hopkins?

Disappointing showing for three of the Ohio teams...CWRU, OWU, and JCU....expected OWU to advance and Serpone vs Martin would have been a storyline....didn't necessarily expect CWRU or JCU to advance but did fully expect them to show better.

Another winner.....grass fields...they held up better than many of us expected...from Bowdoin to Amherst to Grantham to Gambier..

[Another Mom]

No Kenyon or Washington and Lee predictions,  @PaulNewman?

[PaulNewman]

And then afterwards, Serpone sounds like a perfectly reasonable and even generous and gracious man, praising the opponent, praising SLU coach, praising Sibanda, praising how well SLU held the ball, etc.  You can see what recruits and parents would be infatuated.  And the same with the players.  The contrast is remarkable, stunning, and confusing...making you almost question if what you saw is what you saw.  And I've seen Serpone do this after a loss as well.  If you get a chance click on the video on the front of the Amherst soccer website. 

I think you've summed it up @paulnewman. Serpone's recruiting is a well oiled machine -- the biggest and best, most organized we came across. My son got a lot of love -- a couple of visits to campus, numerous calls and texts from Serpone -- by far the most from any program. In the end, my son didn't get an offer. My point is that Serpone expends a huge effort on recruiting.  I can only imagine the amount lavished on a top recruit! It's head-turning! Or, as you say, infatuation. If he got an offer my son probably would have gone, despite not loving the style of play, and the pre-game locker room hype that he saw.

Off the field, I think both Coach Serpone and his players are gentlemen and good people. As others have said, they also have the skill to play beautiful soccer, not the thuggish style they have. I can't comment on the field antics as I have no experience with them.

I agree with nescac94 about moving on, but it's amazing to me that you are STILL infatuated....and AFTER he didn't take your kid and AFTER everything you've read here. 

I do hope you get to go to Gambier especially if you've never been. 

And RE:  a prediction....absolutely not.

[regularguy]

How about we end this conversation, or move it the the NESCAC board?! Nothing new here, it's the same old trope, and giving them the airtime is what they want. Until the refs grow a set and put an end to games of 26-12 fouls, 4/3 cards, this will continue. Or perhaps the Amherst President grows a conscience and decides it isn't worth winning this way. Until one of those things happens, let's talk about soccer, not whatever it is Amherst plays.

"...Until the refs grow a set.."  this is just uncalled for.

[paclassic89]

Poor wording but there is a tendency for American refs to call a lenient game and be reluctant to issue cards.  Just the way it is.

[MNBob]

UWEC showed well and took GAC to the brink.  Is there a better GK name in the country than Spencer Banks?

Except that Spencer was not in goal during the shootout. Coach substituted in 6'6" Jakob Leonard who had very limited minutes all season. Jakob stopped 3 shots but the GAC keeper stopped 4. All 14 PK shots were on frame. I said it in my previous post about the game but keepers stopping 7 of 14 PK was very impressive.

[Hopkins92]

UWEC showed well and took GAC to the brink.  Is there a better GK name in the country than Spencer Banks?

Except that Spencer was not in goal during the shootout. Coach substituted in 6'6" Jakob Leonard who had very limited minutes all season. Jakob stopped 3 shots but the GAC keeper stopped 4. All 14 PK shots were on frame. I said it in my previous post about the game but keepers stopping 7 of 14 PK was very impressive.

Or... :-)

(I didn't see it, so I'll take your word... I saw some great PKs this weekend, and I saw a lot of guys tense up and put a ball on frame that was way too easy for the goalie... That's the nature of the beast.)