Big Dance 2022 - Let's Go!

[PaulNewman]

My two cents on this other topic...

Some of our conflicts and disagreements are well earned.  But others are often at least substantially a function of semantics, misinterpretation of questions and answers, and conflation of what sometimes are different questions.

Saint and I often are not exactly on the same page but here I saw no disrespect intended for Messiah...even though I understood the reaction.  Imo the "is some good fortune" and sometimes "bad fortune" a factor in tournaments is pretty indisputable.  That doesn't mean Saint doesn't believe Messiah has been a very worthy champion or that Messiah isn't the gold standard (sorry for the double and triple negatives).  I found that interaction somewhat ironic because there are few posters here who give more of a nod to tradition and the significance of "stars on your jersey" than Saint.  I mean, like sometimes I don't care who were the great programs in the mid to late 90s especially when that becomes an argument for current superiority.  And Messiah has had its share of bad luck as well...this year and other years when they got knocked out by very inferior opponents in PKs or otherwise.  Tufts had good fortune  and at least a couple of times extremely good fortune.  Calvin has had good fortune and bad...and so on and so on.

In terms of the conflation, it's like asking who has been the most dominant program since 2014....to me, that's easy...it's Tufts.  But if you asked me who is still the gold standard I'm gonna say Messiah.  Two different questions.

[Hopkins92]

For the record (what record?), I agree with the main crux of that PN... I think another aspect to acknowledge is that some people get REALLY offended when you ascribe "luck" to the success of a team (or even a person or business). And I'm not even criticizing that reaction, because I understand that to SOME people, you are devaluing the success by saying factors other than the superiority of the team lead to that success. That is absolutely an approach that people use to undercut success. "Oh, you just got lucky."

But I read Saint's post as you did... It's pretty rare that an entire run to the F4 and a championship don't involve any number of factors that are simply out of the team's control. Let's just call it randomness instead of luck.

[PaulNewman]

For the record (what record?), I agree with the main crux of that PN... I think another aspect to acknowledge is that some people get REALLY offended when you ascribe "luck" to the success of a team (or even a person or business). And I'm not even criticizing that reaction, because I understand that to SOME people, you are devaluing the success by saying factors other than the superiority of the team lead to that success. That is absolutely an approach that people use to undercut success. "Oh, you just got lucky."

But I read Saint's post as you did... It's pretty rare that an entire run to the F4 and a championship don't involve any number of factors that are simply out of the team's control. Let's just call it randomness instead of luck.

Agreed.  I could write a 5 page post explaining in excruciating detail (excruciating for me and the reader) about how the turn of a few plays here and there, a slightly different draw, a home field preventing hosting because it's invested with some rare bacteria, and a butterfly flapping its wings in Mongolia would have resulted in Kenyon having a couple of titles or at minimum a couple of Final 4 appearances. 

[coach analytics]

No doubt - Lady Luck is super important to get through 6 (or at least 5) competitive games to win the whole thing.  Look no further than 01 champion Conn College who needed 2 PK shootouts, another OT victory and 2 one goal victories (1 in the 89th minute) among their 6 wins en route to a national championship.

Even the Tufts 2019 Championship run, one of of the most dominant in recent memories (18-4 goals against in 6 games and 6-0 GA in Final 4), included an OT victory and a 89th minute game winner.

[Hopkins92]

No doubt - Lady Luck is super important to get through 6 (or at least 5) competitive games to win the whole thing.  Look no further than 01 champion Conn College who needed 2 PK shootouts, another OT victory and 2 one goal victories (1 in the 89th minute) among their 6 wins en route to a national championship.

Even the Tufts 2019 Championship run, one of of the most dominant in recent memories (18-4 goals against in 6 games and 6-0 GA in Final 4), included an OT victory and a 89th minute game winner.

I'm not going to go back and do this, but it would be interesting to see what runs DIDN'T require an OT, PK or late one goal winner to win a championship in the last 20 years or so. Which is to say nothing about teams that needed a good deal of fortune/randomness to break their way just to get into the tournament and make a run in the first place.

[PaulNewman]

OK, OK, OK, I'll give one example...

2014 Kenyon was ranked #2 most of the year (behind Messiah) and went into tournament #2.  They had just finally, finally overcome OWU in the NCAC tourney final in OT (after drawing in regular season). The one team you don't want to play two weeks later even on your home field is your biggest, bad blood rival that you just beat in a big spot for the first time in years...and as we learned shortly before the game from a D3soccer.com guru and lead OWU advocate via an early preview reveal of the golden nugget in his to-be-published sectional review, OWU had not lost to the same team twice in the same season in 67 years (OK, 40 years).  I was hysterical and no doubt very distorted, and despite multiple efforts to later mend the fences, the OWU alum who was a great player and I never recovered.

Just to get to that game, OWU had to hold off PS-Behrend in the 1st round in OT on a 94th minute goal by Taylor Rieger (also point guard for OWU bball team).  Then in the 2nd round OWU got 4th ranked Calvin.  Any of the following events could have turned the outcome.  First, Calvin had to move the game from their home field to Hope's home field because of weather.  Calvin went up 1-0 and held that lead to the 81st minute when OWU drew what seemed like an iffy PK call which AA Colton Bloecher buried.  Game goes to OT.  Late in OT1 Calvin legend Travis Vegter (older brother to Calvin legend Trent Vegter) hits the crossbar.  In the 2nd OT Calvin hits another crossbar.  Of course OWU goes on to prevail in PKs, setting up the rematch with Kenyon.  Clearly no guarantee Kenyon would have beaten Calvin but the psychology of the OWU game was all in OWU's favor.  Throw in an ice storm where the OWU bus slid off the road and Jay Martin driving separately helped some people who had an accident.  Game got delayed by a full day because of the ice on the roads and the Lords had another day to get even more anxious about playing OWU again.  There was also the "bad luck" of Kenyon's 1st team AA CB playing on one leg due to a pretty severe hamstring injury.  No guarantee Kenyon would have beaten CNU in the Elite 8 or Tufts in the national semis, but I absolutely believe the Lords would have been more competitive with Tufts that year than OWU (btw, a game where our resident Tufts guru D4 as a Jumbo freshman scored the first goal from his right back position).

[northman]

My two cents on this other topic...

Some of our conflicts and disagreements are well earned.  But others are often at least substantially a function of semantics, misinterpretation of questions and answers, and conflation of what sometimes are different questions.

Saint and I often are not exactly on the same page but here I saw no disrespect intended for Messiah...even though I understood the reaction.  Imo the "is some good fortune" and sometimes "bad fortune" a factor in tournaments is pretty indisputable.  That doesn't mean Saint doesn't believe Messiah has been a very worthy champion or that Messiah isn't the gold standard (sorry for the double and triple negatives).  I found that interaction somewhat ironic because there are few posters here who give more of a nod to tradition and the significance of "stars on your jersey" than Saint.  I mean, like sometimes I don't care who were the great programs in the mid to late 90s especially when that becomes an argument for current superiority.  And Messiah has had its share of bad luck as well...this year and other years when they got knocked out by very inferior opponents in PKs or otherwise.  Tufts had good fortune  and at least a couple of times extremely good fortune.  Calvin has had good fortune and bad...and so on and so on.

In terms of the conflation, it's like asking who has been the most dominant program since 2014....to me, that's easy...it's Tufts.  But if you asked me who is still the gold standard I'm gonna say Messiah.  Two different questions.

I think this is one of those instances where everyone is right.  No matter the quality of the team, it absolutely takes some luck to make it all the way through the tournament to a championship.  That said, Messiah's record speaks for itself.  You don't win 11 national championships without being a sustainably superior team.

As a New England sports fan, I'll refer to the Patriots in their last nine Super Bowl appearances.  They are rightfully considered to be dynasty, and won six...and most of those were by 4 points or less...and some were decided on one of the last plays of the game.  They lost three...two by 3 points each to the New York Giants...and the Giants victories came down to one or two fluke plays.

[Hopkins92]

There was also the "bad luck" of Kenyon's 1st team AA CB playing on one leg due to a pretty severe hamstring injury. 

Yes, I'm being very picky...  Curious what he actually did to be able to play. If you've ever tweaked your hamstring or your groin. It's like walking on borrowed time until it "snaps." And once you've pulled or strained either one, they kind of never truly go away.

[Coach Jeff]

There was also the "bad luck" of Kenyon's 1st team AA CB playing on one leg due to a pretty severe hamstring injury. 

Yes, I'm being very picky...  Curious what he actually did to be able to play. If you've ever tweaked your hamstring or your groin. It's like walking on borrowed time until it "snaps." And once you've pulled or strained either one, they kind of never truly go away.

So true.  No excuses but Messiah's back up target had a pulled hamstring and was unable to play.  He could barely run and cut. 

[PaulNewman]

There was also the "bad luck" of Kenyon's 1st team AA CB playing on one leg due to a pretty severe hamstring injury. 

Yes, I'm being very picky...  Curious what he actually did to be able to play. If you've ever tweaked your hamstring or your groin. It's like walking on borrowed time until it "snaps." And once you've pulled or strained either one, they kind of never truly go away.

Name is Sam Justice.  One of the all-time Kenyon greats.  He was very much in the running for D3soccer.com Defender of the Year, I think the same year Kenyon GK Sam Clougher won GK of the year.  Sam also was summa cum laude and a NCAA Postgraduate scholar who went on to get a Ph.D. in statistics at Univ of Iowa and now is in Boston working at Mass General Brigham where my son is a 3rd year resident.

From what I recall, Sam suffered the injury in the NCAC final with OWU probably chasing Colton Bloecher.  He tried to play the first game of the first weekend but had to come out about 20 minutes in and did not play in the second game. He knew the team needed him to beat OWU and he did whatever treatment you can do for those types of injuries, but he really couldn't play and he did not play the 2nd half because he was just so obviously hobbled. He, my kid, and a bunch of others sobbing after the game.  Probably my most traumatic experience as a sports parent and a big reason why I still can't fully shake the curse of the Battling Bishops lol.

[saint_forever]

I'm laughing Saint_Dad, because you've summed up about a decade worth of complaints (and both sides of the debate) about Amherst's soccer program, if you scroll through the archives of the NESCAC board.  On the one hand, the coach's personality, the rough / ugly style of play, and the field all receive, to put it mildly, very little love throughout NESCAC (and broader D3 circles, when they are exposed).  But on the other, Amherst wins big and does so consistently, brings in great players consistently, and the players seem (unlike the rest of the league) to enjoy playing for him.  Part of it can be attributed to the fact that it's never fun to lose consistently to any team, but on the other hand, Williams, Midd, Conn and especially Tufts have all had championship eras lead by HOF-caliber coaches over the past 30 years, and there was never the same sort of animosity directed towards any of those programs.  In short, it works for Amherst, but doesn't make a lot of friends outside of Amherst.

Yes, the complaints about Amherst have been detailed and entirely consistent from a range of sources for well over 10+ years.  You can't ask people to un-see and un-hear what they see and hear, often numerous times over.  And the Amherst program and its fans will concede nothing.  In that sense they are impenetrable and nearly cultish.

Saint-Dad, you're right, SLU could not have had a more disastrous start.  And then even with a one goal right away within the first five minutes the Amherst players, bench, and especially the coach were throwing tantrums on almost every foul call.  They tried to rough up everybody but especially Sibanda.  So then you're in a bind about how to defend yourself, how to combat what's happening, and then you unwittingly try to match them and get out of your own game.  ten Cate is a histrionic thespian...on literally almost every single call...one minute taking someone out and another minute writhing on the ground in agony.  And then even #8 and some others were mock-clapping Sibanda.  Just insufferable behavior and very painful to watch.  It's a bit like Messiah in a different kind of way....insofar as you get get so focused on the opponent and how difficult it is play them that you're almost immediately not playing your own game.

And then afterwards, Serpone sounds like a perfectly reasonable and even generous and gracious man, praising the opponent, praising SLU coach, praising Sibanda, praising how well SLU held the ball, etc.  You can see what recruits and parents would be infatuated.  And the same with the players.  The contrast is remarkable, stunning, and confusing...making you almost question if what you saw is what you saw.  And I've seen Serpone do this after a loss as well.  If you get a chance click on the video on the front of the Amherst soccer website. 

You SLU folks should feel proud.  At 3-0 I thought there was zero chance SLU was going to stay in the game, but they did.  Showed a lot of character and eventually a very skilled, attractive style.

Now one thing I don't understand is why the Amherst bench doesn't get more yellows.  I saw a lot of teams getting coach and bench yellows for far less.  Maybe they do and I I've missed it but one wonders if the refs adjust ot Amherst as well....like ref fatigue where they say we're not going to call fouls past 25....or at a minimum the bar moves and what is considered egregious moves.

First post for me here on the board. Possibly a controversial one. Having been at the Amherst-SLU game I'm happy I wasn't the only one who was embarrassed for the behavior of the Amherst squad. Late, dirty fouls were clearly emphasized by the coaching staff as a tactic before the game, and the words coming from the Amherst bench were almost comical. One tackle went in on Saints winger #7 when he was on the floor, borderline red card offence, and the Amherst assistant is saying the game has gone soft. Players on the Amherst bench wearing hard hats is pretty pathetic in my view. Coach Serpone prides himself on creating leaders yet to an outside viewer it felt as though the team were a bunch of sheep. All just repeating and following generic orders from coach, clearly those players have been stripped of the ability to think for themselves. How can you say a program is full of leaders who go in late on tackles, wear hard hats on the sideline and yell instructions that they clearly don't even understand. I'll give respect to the team for clearly being devoted to winning, but even after the game, the insincerity of the players was again just a bad look. Actions speak louder than words, even though Serpone was full of praise after the game, would've been nice to know what he truly thinks of his own players intentionally going in studs up.

[coach analytics]

I agree with everything you are saying about Amherst.

I have coached kids/young men my whole life and I believe we as coaches have an obligation to not only teach the game but also life lessons and create leaders.  I think what is happening at Amherst is borderline unethical.  Trying to win at all costs....bad player behavior, bad coachigng behavior, tons of fouls, lousy field... Not a great example from such a great institution.

[stlawus]

I'm laughing Saint_Dad, because you've summed up about a decade worth of complaints (and both sides of the debate) about Amherst's soccer program, if you scroll through the archives of the NESCAC board.  On the one hand, the coach's personality, the rough / ugly style of play, and the field all receive, to put it mildly, very little love throughout NESCAC (and broader D3 circles, when they are exposed).  But on the other, Amherst wins big and does so consistently, brings in great players consistently, and the players seem (unlike the rest of the league) to enjoy playing for him.  Part of it can be attributed to the fact that it's never fun to lose consistently to any team, but on the other hand, Williams, Midd, Conn and especially Tufts have all had championship eras lead by HOF-caliber coaches over the past 30 years, and there was never the same sort of animosity directed towards any of those programs.  In short, it works for Amherst, but doesn't make a lot of friends outside of Amherst.

Yes, the complaints about Amherst have been detailed and entirely consistent from a range of sources for well over 10+ years.  You can't ask people to un-see and un-hear what they see and hear, often numerous times over.  And the Amherst program and its fans will concede nothing.  In that sense they are impenetrable and nearly cultish.

Saint-Dad, you're right, SLU could not have had a more disastrous start.  And then even with a one goal right away within the first five minutes the Amherst players, bench, and especially the coach were throwing tantrums on almost every foul call.  They tried to rough up everybody but especially Sibanda.  So then you're in a bind about how to defend yourself, how to combat what's happening, and then you unwittingly try to match them and get out of your own game.  ten Cate is a histrionic thespian...on literally almost every single call...one minute taking someone out and another minute writhing on the ground in agony.  And then even #8 and some others were mock-clapping Sibanda.  Just insufferable behavior and very painful to watch.  It's a bit like Messiah in a different kind of way....insofar as you get get so focused on the opponent and how difficult it is play them that you're almost immediately not playing your own game.

And then afterwards, Serpone sounds like a perfectly reasonable and even generous and gracious man, praising the opponent, praising SLU coach, praising Sibanda, praising how well SLU held the ball, etc.  You can see what recruits and parents would be infatuated.  And the same with the players.  The contrast is remarkable, stunning, and confusing...making you almost question if what you saw is what you saw.  And I've seen Serpone do this after a loss as well.  If you get a chance click on the video on the front of the Amherst soccer website. 

You SLU folks should feel proud.  At 3-0 I thought there was zero chance SLU was going to stay in the game, but they did.  Showed a lot of character and eventually a very skilled, attractive style.

Now one thing I don't understand is why the Amherst bench doesn't get more yellows.  I saw a lot of teams getting coach and bench yellows for far less.  Maybe they do and I I've missed it but one wonders if the refs adjust ot Amherst as well....like ref fatigue where they say we're not going to call fouls past 25....or at a minimum the bar moves and what is considered egregious moves.

First post for me here on the board. Possibly a controversial one. Having been at the Amherst-SLU game I'm happy I wasn't the only one who was embarrassed for the behavior of the Amherst squad. Late, dirty fouls were clearly emphasized by the coaching staff as a tactic before the game, and the words coming from the Amherst bench were almost comical. One tackle went in on Saints winger #7 when he was on the floor, borderline red card offence, and the Amherst assistant is saying the game has gone soft. Players on the Amherst bench wearing hard hats is pretty pathetic in my view. Coach Serpone prides himself on creating leaders yet to an outside viewer it felt as though the team were a bunch of sheep. All just repeating and following generic orders from coach, clearly those players have been stripped of the ability to think for themselves. How can you say a program is full of leaders who go in late on tackles, wear hard hats on the sideline and yell instructions that they clearly don't even understand. I'll give respect to the team for clearly being devoted to winning, but even after the game, the insincerity of the players was again just a bad look. Actions speak louder than words, even though Serpone was full of praise after the game, would've been nice to know what he truly thinks of his own players intentionally going in studs up.

I have no doubt that was Derek Shea, as I've heard him say the same things almost verbatim in past games.   I noticed him throwing fits and gesticulating wildly the entire game, which again is nothing new as he's done that for a decade now.  Guy's in his mid to late 50s and acts worse than a child who doesn't know any better.  Contrast that to the behavior of the Messiah coaching staff and players in their game against Williams.  Yea yea "sour grapes" and all that which is fair, but I mentioned after the game Amherst played a great game and has a tremendous amount of talent top to bottom which is a testament to the quality of Amherst's program.

[SimpleCoach]

I started a thread to discuss Amherst and any other school that isn't on topic with the National Tournament.....

SC.

[Coach.myers]

Curious as to thoughts on the NCAA OT policy as it relates to the 22-23 season. As we all know the NCAA eliminated OT in regular season therefore resulting in a significant numbers of tied matches. Secondly (I may be wrong about this) but dropping sudden victory and having two full OT periods seems to have resulted in too many matches that went to PKs which I'm sure many agree is not the best way to end a match. I believe there were 5 matches determined by PKs in 21-22 and so far after two rounds we have already seen 10 this year in tournament.