2023 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective

[PaulNewman]

Great story, Greg.  Thanks for sharing it.

And since you are from upstate NY, how did you in fact end up at North Park?

[WUPHF]

And I told myself I wasn't gonna post today!

By the way, I appreciate the work you do for high school kids.

And, Macalester was definitely the best option of those you listed.

Keep posting!

[WUPHF]

"No, I didn't. Just profs." (I'm dating myself here, because this was in the days before non-tenured "gypsy" adjunct instructors became a fixture at just about every level of higher education.)

"Your average class size was ... what?"

"About fifteen students or so."

"And you knew your professors, right? I mean, well enough to be on a first-name basis with them, or maybe you even socialized with them. True?"

"True."

One of the more interesting, but dirty secrets about the big, research universities such as Harvard is that they can brag about the great student to faculty ratio because there are so many employees with a faculty rank, including physicians who never teach except the occasional lecture or seminar.  It can be worse at the state universities.

[Yankeesoccerdad]

Sunday, Sept 24

Bowdoin-Williams...Game of the day.  This weekend should give us a strong hint about whether either of these teams are overrated.  I've watched snippets of Williams and Diffley looks as sharp as he was in last year's tourney run.  Is top GK in NESCAC down to Grady and Diffley?  Can Juantorena disrupt any offensive forays by the Ephs...and also supply a little magic on the other end?  Just like with having a Grady or Diffley, it's got to feel comforting for Bowdoin fans to see Juantorena on the pitch.  Or will the match be decided by a Huckster?  Cries to make sure you pay attention to a #35 somehow don't sound right.  But then there's #48, Michael Meese, at Trinity (TX), and no school has high impact players with more unusual numbers than North Park.

I've been meaning to respond to this but work travel got in the way. 

Beginning last night, Bowdoin plays four games in eight days, including a challenging weekend of road games against Midd and Williams (rated #5 and #3 on Massey).  Forecast calls for cool temps and rain both days.  Midd has turf but Cole Field at Williams will be a mud pit for Sunday (it is a NESCAC double header weekend, with Williams hosting Colby in the rain on Saturday).

Bowdoin had a solid non-conference win last night, defeating Southern Maine 5-1. Goals will be much harder to come by this weekend.  Since fall 2019 when the current 5th year seniors started (Braver, Juantorena and Selig), Bowdoin hasn't defeated either Midd or Williams, although there have been several ties (including an intense double OT tie with Midd in 2019, when ties weren't so much of a thing).  Both games should be typical, NESCAC physical battles, with the added unpredictable impact of rain.

Huck is a very special player and easy to spot w/ his #35.  Definitely worth streaming to watch him play if you aren't already tuning in Sunday for the mud pit soccer. 

The student newspaper ran a nice profile on him recently.

https://bowdoinorient.com/2023/09/01/polar-bear-of-the-week-tyler-huck-26/

[PaulNewman]

And I told myself I wasn't gonna post today!

By the way, I appreciate the work you do for high school kids.

And, Macalester was definitely the best option of those you listed.

Keep posting!

Thank you.  Nice to hear that from someone who has been here a long time.

One addition for me....and I am sure there are a ton of examples like this across the country...

When you grow up in Appalachia, Transylvania is Harvard. 

It's a constant battle because success punctures one's naivete about what else is out there and maybe beyond your grasp, and then what's beyond your grasp becomes your measuring stick if you allow it to do so.  Because of his background and his exposure to "the finer things in life," my Dad spent a fair amount of time pursuing what would be "good enough."  So after med school at Cincinnati, he went after and got a residency in surgery at UNC whose hospital I was born in.  He would still lament from time to time that he was "only" a community surgeon for an area about 45 minutes from Chapel Hill/Duke...and not in academic medicine.

[Freddyfud]

Btw, while i agree with some of Generallyinterested observations about W&L losing a lot and being down a little, I don't think they belong off the national stage.  Why else was this considered such a huge, possibly breakthrough match for VWU?  I think of W&L, Hopkins, Kenyon, and St Olaf as all teams that have struggled to some degree but are far from dead yet.  And of course W&L WON the game...a game that had some hype around it on the road.

Why was this was considered a breakthrough match for VWU?  Based on polls at least weren't they the favorites?  Staying in the ODAC I watched Lynchburg dismantle a decent Hampden Sydney team tonight.  Not sure about the qualifications for a national stage but seems like they should earn a spot.

A few things...

1) It pains me that anyone is paying attention at all to USC rankings where posters try to figure out and rationalize how they came up with whatever they came up with.  There is nothing to figure out.  It's a very poorly done and highly distorted deal.

2)  Lynchburg has been on the national stage for a long time, as have W&L, Emory, CNU, and now Mary Wash.  Apologies if I missed one or two.  What Lynchburg needs is a poster or two who cares to post about the Hornets. 

3)  Are you suggesting that you didn't consider W&L the favorite?  Or that if VWU had won that wouldn't have been considered big?  I had to keep checking to see who actually won the game, and when Sierra posted that VWU was shelling W&L definitely seemed like he was trying to basically post an upset alert.  So yes, W&L was the favorite...by some distance...and I would guess they'd win 8 or at least 7 times out of 10 with a couple of the others being draws.  I realize you may vote "neither" but out of the two which team is more likely to make the NCAA tourney and do some damage...W&L, or VWU?  Just the last two seasons for W&L...Final Four, Sweet 16.

4)  I have absolutely nothing against GenerallyInterested, and I hope him or her keep posting...but are you f*&&ing kidding me?  You have three posts and two are directed at Another Mom and W&L.  Takes some hutzpah to register literally 10 days ago, post ONE time, and then play traffic cop directing where posters should post their posts.  And like I said, I think most would agree with your observations except for the tone of suggesting the season's lost.  Is Calvin off the national stage?  Hopkins?  St Olaf?  If Messiah loses two in a row, are they done?  North Park?  Like what is the cutoff threshold for being mentioned or discussed in the National thread?

5)  We're getting into the heart of the season and honestly the activity level here overall is tepid at best.  We need more posting rather than less.

I originally planned to ask the question of what qualifies for a national stage but as a newbie here figured I'd ease into that.  This is a new thread you started with "Let's do this!" and topics have ranged from GK mechanics to roster sizes and lots in between (interesting topics I might add.)  I personally would not go so far as to disqualify anyone else's post--it's a message board after all.  But national stage qualification is still not clear to me.  Your responses above provide some clarity, at least from your point of view.

Now allow me to share mine.  I signed on recently as my HS senior son is being recruited and found this board. Some of those teams are mentioned here. I have not followed D3 soccer prior to this year.  Yes I can look up records and stats like anyone else.  But judging a program based on history isn't why I am here.  I still can and will respect those that do (and do find some of the stories very interesting.)  I also think it's fair to have a different perspective of national stage--one that is based more so on the outlook for the current season and future ones.  This was the basis for my questions.

For example if I ask a question as to the VWU game favorite it is just that.  It wasn't about who I believed to be the favorite.  (As an aside I get there may be skepticism of new posters as an unfamiliar lot.  Message boards are filled with trolls, foul language and otherwise bad intended persons.  I'm guessing it's happened here on occasion.)  Trashing polls is fine, after all I asked.  And even if I had been following D3 I would not use the last 2 seasons as the basis for a favorite in a game last night but to each his own.  Again I was the one who asked.  I watched the game.  VWU may or may not be the better team but played better imo and also has some decent wins this season.  Since you asked from this point forward among the two teams I actually would give them the nod thru 10 similar games or even preference to make the postseason.  Again nothing to do with last year, last 10 years or even coach's historical record.  I put less emphasis on that, maybe you don't.  Only time will tell who is right of course.

Interesting point #5 plus others in the meantime about participation.  (As I write this perhaps more have been posted.)  If increased participation is desired my suggestion is to take my case as an example and consider everyone visiting and/or posting has different motivations and perspectives.  I may leave tomorrow, next year, after my son graduates, or never.  I may be interested in the lore or the prospects or anything else for that matter.  As long as there is acceptance I'd like to contribute. But if I am to be lectured based on my ignorance of storied programs I'll just join the lurker crowd or leave altogether.  A compromise might be for me to just start a new thread which would be fair.  As long as I understood the subject of this one should only include a historical perspective.

It's hard to grow a base if new users don't feel welcomed. 

 

[PaulNewman]

@freddyfud  (which is hard to type without laughing!), thank you for the response.  I have heard this complaint before, both in general about the atmosphere and also towards me specifically.  So if there are things we and/or I can do to make being here more comfortable I'm all in.  I can also try to keep my sarcasm in check better as it's often misinterpreted and/or taken personally.  Ultimately, you'll have to decide whether you want to join in or not.  I can't bear that burden. 

I do think you were a little unfair.  I had no idea whether you had been lurking here for years or were brand new as you explained.  Your post referenced polls as in plural...there's only one poll for real, and hopefully you've seen far more people than me suggest that the USC poll is not very helpful or accurate.  And while history actually is important, for many reasons including recruiting, I am looking forward and to the future if I project that W&L was the favorite.  And my point about why was it going to be a big win for VWU if W&L in fact is finished came not just from you but a compilation of posts...like either the match doesn't have much importance or it does, and if it does, why would that be?  And imo the reason the game potentially would have importance for VWU, which I believe it did, is precisely because W&L has been one of the big dogs, if not the dog, in that area. 

You mentioned Lynchburg.  Not sure if you had a reaction to my response there or not.  At any rate, there is no qualification standard for being talked about in this thread.  As you noted, pretty anything goes and eventually someone will gently or not so gently ask if we can get back on topic.  Yes, it's a national perspective thread (that yes, I've started pretty much every year), and you don't have to prove a certain level of quality or reach some bar to be discussed.  National thread, not national excellence thread, although of course conversations tend to revolve strong programs but don't have to.  It's definitely not a thread where only the perceived top 15 or top 30 can be talked about.  Iirc I think last year or the year before we actually had to cajole Another Mom to use the national thread ironically.

If you think VWU has better prospects going forward please tell us more.  Maybe we just disagree but engaging in a back and forth doesn't mean anyone is trying to run you off.  13 years ago I was in your position exactly.  I took my bruises (and still do lol) mostly because it takes 3-4 years to realize how important SoS is, for example.  VWU most years, if not every vear since I've been here, would have had to win the ODAC tourney to get a NCAA bid.  Their schedule generally has not been good enough to get them regionally ranked (another topic very hard to grasp at first because the regional rankings that mean anything aren't the USC regional rankings and only come out towards the end of the season) and therefore they wouldn't even come under consideration for an at-large bid.  For instance, if the NCAA tournament at-large choices were picked TODAY, I am almost certain W&L would be picked over VWU.  That's hard to understand when VWU is 6-1 and W&L is 3-1-3, but W&L appears to have the far superior schedule and that is weighted extremely heavily.  W&L's schedule actually looks overall softer than usual but still much stronger than VWU's.  The same would probably be true even if VWU had beaten W&L.

It's also a little unfair to conclude as you concluded in your next to last paragraph...."As long as I understood the subject of this one should only include a historical perspective."  Many posters are pretty open about sharing when they think a traditional power is having or going to have a down year.  And the board often has been extremely friendly with newcomers coming "on the stage," like Western Connecticut, or St Josephs (ME), or Sewanee.  If you do well long enough you'll get talked about.

The irony is that I actually was starting to pay attention to the Marlins.  I love to see emergent programs.  My team wasn't on the radar much at when I joined in 2012 or whenever it was.  As long as they keep doing well, you're going see more interest and talk about Denison.  Western Connecticut and UWEC were talked about a ton last year.

At any rate, I hope you stay.  And yes, start a new thread whenever you want, and if you outline some parameters that you hope will be followed for the thread I think most will try to accommodate.

[PaulNewman]

It might be helpful to point out that last year a number of us including some old-timers were nearly distraught that Western CT didn't make the tournament with a record of 20-0-2 and 8-0 in conference.  They drew with UMass-Boston in the conference tourney final but lost the PK shootout.  No bid.  SoS too low.  Meanwhile, some of us were nearly as distraught that Williams got a bid with the bizarre record of 6-1-10.  And of course they got to the national final.  I remember a number of years back when Randolph was 17-1 and didn't get a bid.  There's very little subjectivity involved and the process is almost entirely math.


Addendum:  I stand corrected as VWU did have a decent SoS last year but the overall resume wasn't strong enough to get a bid.  I'm not sure how they had a SoS as high as they did reviewing the schedule, but they did benefit on SoS from playing W&L twice (a draw and then 6-1 loss) and CNU (4-0 loss).  The NCAA rankings (in contrast to USC regional rankings) are determinative, and here's the final NCAA regional rankings from 2022.

https://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2022/Men/regional-rankings-4

[SierraFD3soccer]

3)  Are you suggesting that you didn't consider W&L the favorite?  Or that if VWU had won that wouldn't have been considered big?  I had to keep checking to see who actually won the game, and when Sierra posted that VWU was shelling W&L definitely seemed like he was trying to basically post an upset alert.  So yes, W&L was the favorite...by some distance...and I would guess they'd win 8 or at least 7 times out of 10 with a couple of the others being draws.  I realize you may vote "neither" but out of the two which team is more likely to make the NCAA tourney and do some damage...W&L, or VWU?  Just the last two seasons for W&L...Final Four, Sweet 16.

I originally planned to ask the question of what qualifies for a national stage but as a newbie here figured I'd ease into that.  This is a new thread you started with "Let's do this!" and topics have ranged from GK mechanics to roster sizes and lots in between (interesting topics I might add.)  I personally would not go so far as to disqualify anyone else's post--it's a message board after all.  But national stage qualification is still not clear to me.  Your responses above provide some clarity, at least from your point of view.

Now allow me to share mine.  I signed on recently as my HS senior son is being recruited and found this board. Some of those teams are mentioned here. I have not followed D3 soccer prior to this year.  Yes I can look up records and stats like anyone else.  But judging a program based on history isn't why I am here.  I still can and will respect those that do (and do find some of the stories very interesting.)  I also think it's fair to have a different perspective of national stage--one that is based more so on the outlook for the current season and future ones.  This was the basis for my questions.

For example if I ask a question as to the VWU game favorite it is just that.  It wasn't about who I believed to be the favorite.  (As an aside I get there may be skepticism of new posters as an unfamiliar lot.  Message boards are filled with trolls, foul language and otherwise bad intended persons.  I'm guessing it's happened here on occasion.)  Trashing polls is fine, after all I asked.  And even if I had been following D3 I would not use the last 2 seasons as the basis for a favorite in a game last night but to each his own.  Again I was the one who asked.  I watched the game.  VWU may or may not be the better team but played better imo and also has some decent wins this season.  Since you asked from this point forward among the two teams I actually would give them the nod thru 10 similar games or even preference to make the postseason.  Again nothing to do with last year, last 10 years or even coach's historical record.  I put less emphasis on that, maybe you don't.  Only time will tell who is right of course.

Interesting point #5 plus others in the meantime about participation.  (As I write this perhaps more have been posted.)  If increased participation is desired my suggestion is to take my case as an example and consider everyone visiting and/or posting has different motivations and perspectives.  I may leave tomorrow, next year, after my son graduates, or never.  I may be interested in the lore or the prospects or anything else for that matter.  As long as there is acceptance I'd like to contribute. But if I am to be lectured based on my ignorance of storied programs I'll just join the lurker crowd or leave altogether.  A compromise might be for me to just start a new thread which would be fair.  As long as I understood the subject of this one should only include a historical perspective.

It's hard to grow a base if new users don't feel welcomed. 

So as to my assessment of the VWU v. W&L game, I definitely saw a lot better chances for VWU and VWU controlling most of the action.  W&L got a great goal in the 73 minute and held on. The way soccer goes.

As to what team should be discussed on this particular page, one or more persons' opinion. We all have one.

In the past most of these discussions have been on the Mid-Atlantic page, NESCAC on theirs.  I mentioned on this page because VWU was 6-0 at the time and they were playing a recent perennial NCAA tournament qualifier (but appear to be going through some issues which for many of us who have followed W&L was unusual). Under Mike Singleton over his 9 years, W&L has be 128-31-20, one final four, 4 quarterfinals along with 7 NCAA qualifications. So, in my opinion, a team with its track record and currently has a record of 3-1-3 can still be in the national conversation. As to VWU, they could be an emerging team that some might be interested in tracking. Further, W&L is one of the few teams that will stretch itself by playing quality out of conference teams every year which I believe has been by some of us concerning other teams.

Best of luck to your family and your son on the recruitment part. Not easy. If you need or want advice on this as we went through reasonably recently, please do not hesitate to contact me.  My email is on the left and I have no problem answering questions.  FYI, no stupid questions.

[PaulNewman]

Thanks, Sierra.  I thought that was helpful. 

As for qualifications for a team being mentioned or discussed, from my pov there is only one major requirement...caring enough about that team to post something about them.

[SierraFD3soccer]

Thanks, Sierra.  I thought that was helpful. 

As for qualifications for a team being mentioned or discussed, from my pov there is only one major requirement...caring enough about that team to post something about them.

Appreciate it.  IMO Lynchburg and Roanoke are good programs with great coaches. Several kids from my area who played with my son went to both of these programs and had great experiences soccer wise and academically.

[Freddyfud]

@PaulNewman all good, not sure about others but I have thick skin at least.  Wasn't trying to be unfair but wanted to point out a different perspective as it relates to participation since that seemed to be a concern.  I see you've been here since 11/5/12 based on a quick profile check.  Mine shows July 27, 2023 so coming up to my 3 month anniversary!  My comment on the thread restricted to historical perspective was in the context of whether or not it would be fair for me to post here or start a new thread, that is all.

Please allow me to start over with a proper introduction.  Hi all!  I'm Freddyfud, a random name that came to my head when I was excited to create an AOL email account on a dial up connection 25 years ago and stuck with it ever since.  I graduated from Lehigh '93, so yes I'm old.  Decided to pursue studying instead of lacrosse or soccer but succumbed to the Greek life in the end.  We all have regrets, but at least I learned how to open a beer bottle with a cigarette lighter.  I now live near Raleigh, NC (born in Baltimore and grew up in Columbia, MD) and have 2 kids, including a 17 yo son passionate about soccer but makes me want to pull my hair out.  Every damn day.  OK with that out of the way...

I agree with the USC poll reliability, it's the same story for HS soccer.  I had the 2 ODAC games up last night side by side on my dual monitors.  When comparing the 4, my opinion was Lynchburg was on another level.  Not sure how to rank the other 3 but as I said VWU seemed to be the better of those two, if anything due to scoring chances.  I tend to judge based on what I see maybe to a fault.  I saw VWU try to exploit the backline mostly by long balls when I felt they could have been more patient at times.  Their midfielders seemed very capable but underutilized.  Other comments about the videographer possibly on something illicit are confirmed--a lot of the action in either box was flat out missed.  On my other monitor Lynchburg had a very effective press.  Hard to tell without a fullscreen video but it seemed the 8 was part of the backline press, with the 6 and possibly a CB in respectively advanced positions.  Whatever it was worked.

Your points on SoS are valid and helpful.  I admit I am ignorant there as I haven't reached that point of the season yet. I guess it's either conference championship or pool C.  Second place often means back to the school grind?

To your comment on the importance of history at least within the context of recruiting, I wonder if times have changed.  Excluding the obvious draw from the strongest programs, I would think innovation is even more important now during these post Covid times.  As in what are you doing for me now, not what have you done for me lately.  Probably long enough for another thread though.

To everyone else thank you.  I do find this board informative and entertaining.  At Lehigh I was exposed to tri-state students who felt they were the center of the universe.  Who knew there was something called NESCAC who would disagree?  And I am now definitely curious to attend a F&M game in person (after many years of parent sideline behavior at club games, forgive me if I have to leave during the first half.) 

[Freddyfud]

Best of luck to your family and your son on the recruitment part. Not easy. If you need or want advice on this as we went through reasonably recently, please do not hesitate to contact me.  My email is on the left and I have no problem answering questions.  FYI, no stupid questions.

Thank you.  That is generous.

[Hopkins92]

Just  want to formally welcome Freddyfud to the board.  I kind of feel like there are  reports of this board's demise, while I see very knowledgeable and vested folks joining year over year.

[Gregory Sager]

Great story, Greg.  Thanks for sharing it.

And since you are from upstate NY, how did you in fact end up at North Park?

It's the school owned by the denomination in which I was raised. I met a lot of North Park students who were counselors at the church camp I attended in southwestern NY as a kid, and almost to a person I was really impressed by them and looked up to them. Plus, after spending my childhood and youth in leafy suburbia, I wanted to experience life in a big city.

The irony is that my second college choice was Wheaton. [shudder]

My high school guidance counselor forced all of her students to apply to at least three colleges, so the third one I picked, just to get her off of my back, was St. Olaf. No real reason why, other than the fact that the St. Olaf brochure had more pretty girls in its pictures than did any of the other brochures in the guidance counselor's office. Such is the way that a 17-year-old's mind operates.

As you can tell, I was keen to get away from home. There was no reason behind it other than to assert my independence and to experience a different part of the country, but it turns out in retrospect that I was at the forward edge of the mass exodus from upstate NY that's now been going on for decades. Too bad, because it was actually a nice place to grow up.