2023 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective

[SierraFD3soccer]

Have heard this from others about the current cost for W&L.  As my son is looking at schools now I am seeing what you say jknezek.  Filling out net price calculators with academics and finances as inputs feels like playing slots--hit the submit button and hope for 3 bars! I don't understand this model as it makes it difficult to compare one school to another.  Maybe this is the intent.  I may have some more questions on this front as cost will obviously be an important part of his decision.  I hear times are tough for recent grads these days, so he doesn't need an additional loan payment burden if we can help it.

I'm also looking at endowments for purposes of longevity.  The trend of schools closing their doors is a concern.  I notice W&L actually has a substantial endowment (20th on a list for endowment per student) which makes me wonder if there is any endowment interplay with tuition somehow.

PS the fraternity was Beta, and my visits there would have been 90-92 when Dave lived in Charlottesville and his band was apparently making the college circuits.  The visits were reciprocated when my W&L friends would visit the me on the Hill during Lehigh-Lafayette weekend.  Some great stories that I won't share here...

Hah! Beta '88 who grew up in Easton, Pa and mom was in the Bursar's Office. So if you went to Lafayette, my mom handled your bills most likely. Dad went to Lafayette. Grew up couple of blocks from Lafayette. I'll email you.  Don't to gum the page. If you went to Lehigh, you can forget about it. You're dead to me. Hahaha.

[Freddyfud]

Have heard this from others about the current cost for W&L.  As my son is looking at schools now I am seeing what you say jknezek.  Filling out net price calculators with academics and finances as inputs feels like playing slots--hit the submit button and hope for 3 bars! I don't understand this model as it makes it difficult to compare one school to another.  Maybe this is the intent.  I may have some more questions on this front as cost will obviously be an important part of his decision.  I hear times are tough for recent grads these days, so he doesn't need an additional loan payment burden if we can help it.

I'm also looking at endowments for purposes of longevity.  The trend of schools closing their doors is a concern.  I notice W&L actually has a substantial endowment (20th on a list for endowment per student) which makes me wonder if there is any endowment interplay with tuition somehow.

PS the fraternity was Beta, and my visits there would have been 90-92 when Dave lived in Charlottesville and his band was apparently making the college circuits.  The visits were reciprocated when my W&L friends would visit the me on the Hill during Lehigh-Lafayette weekend.  Some great stories that I won't share here...

Hah! Beta '88 who grew up in Easton, Pa and mom was in the Bursar's Office. So if you went to Lafayette, my mom handled your bills most likely. Dad went to Lafayette. Grew up couple of blocks from Lafayette. I'll email you.  Don't to gum the page. If you went to Lehigh, you can forget about it. You're dead to me. Hahaha.

The game is and always will be LEHIGH-Lafayette.  Small friggin world...

[PaulNewman]

Random W&L question...and same for newly maligned Conn College and Coast Guard...do W&L students, past and/or present, tend to have any interaction or socializing with VMI?

[SierraFD3soccer]

I'm class of 2000, so I missed Dave Matthews by a few years but I did, for a time, have the infamous bootleg of him playing at Zollman's Pavilion off campus at a W&L event, maybe sometime in 1993?

Anyway, when I was there the soccer team was decent, always toward the top of the ODAC. Coach Piranian was there for almost 40 years and went 313-242-56 according to W&L's website. He won the ODAC in '86, '89, and '00, reaching the Sweet Sixteen of the NCAAs in '00.

As for the cost, yes, it's ridiculous. And what makes it more ridiculous is it is not out of line with most of the top Liberal Arts schools in the country. It was a "value" school when I was there, expensive, but not near as expensive as its peers. I turned away from a bunch of Centennial Schools since they were much more expensive at the time. Now they all carry a ridiculous sticker. However, the sticker is kind of a joke, as almost no one pays it. W&L's sticker is around 80K a year including room and board. The actual average cost, after scholarships and grants, is about 27K per year.

The whole "industry" is rife with this kind of lunacy. Don't get me wrong, 27k per year is still expensive, but out of state to go to UVA is going to cost 21K after scholarships and grants, so it's not like state schools are a lot better.

Anyway, discussion for a different spot. I'll just say we've been spoiled the last decade with W&L soccer teams. This team doesn't seem to have the same talent, or at least the same ability to win games. Down years happen almost everywhere. I think it will be ODAC tournament champs or no post season for the Generals for the first time since 2014 (not counting COVID).

Sorry, my mistake as to Coach Piranian's overall record.  Should have looked it up before I definitely underplayed the team's accomplishments during his time. Definitely not a good look on my part.

As to sticker price being a joke, it was not for us, I will not get to far into this, W&L asked us to pay the entire cost. We appealed and had him apply for any and all scholarship opportunities, but we were rejected. In 2018-19, it would have costed us $70,500 with the only aid would be work study. (4 years at W&L approx. cost with Jr and Sr year discount about $250K). It would have gone down by our son's junior year to about 50K or so according to fin. aid office, because we would have our second kid in college. We were in the sweet (probably should say sour) spot where we were not rich (no inherited wealth or amazing salaries) and not poor.  We both worked and lived nicely in Maryland, but that was only pretty recently once we paid of our school loans and progressed in our careers. We were hoping for some opportunity for our son to qualify for some of the W&L scholarships, but, as figured I later, were really for kids who did not apply ED. Long story.

Our mistake, but the $27K average cost is a very interesting number and how W&L came to that. Also the % of people receiving fin. aid is most likely misleading as well.  If you have a workstudy job then you are receiving fin. aid. In my opinion, W&L is far, far from transparent in this area and I am guessing some people may agree as well as many other schools. Many of the parents I know had the same dilemma.  FYI, our son grade/score wise academics with APs and already earned college credits was well above W&L's average.  I can tell you more, but would prefer in an email.

[SierraFD3soccer]

Random W&L question...and same for newly maligned Conn College and Coast Guard...do W&L students, past and/or present, tend to have any interaction or socializing with VMI?

Hahaha, well different eras different experiences I am guessing. In the 80's, yes definitely. Lacrosse played each other with W&L crushing them. Student to student yes, but in a pretty crazy situations generally. We at W&L were always trying to be cool so we could talk to girls (5 girls schools in the area) and then maybe get drunk. VMI had it reversed. They just got flat out drunk if they could get out of their barracks, and then tried to talk to girls.  Generally, not to many fights especially since fights between drunks tend to be comical rather a real fight. Also most W&L students were not big fighters drunk or sober plus VMI guys knew the consequences of getting caught fighting. Our fraternity house was at the bottom of the hill from VMI so we would from time to time have them around. Many Rats or Keydets as they were called were from VA and many at W&L were from VA as well.  So many knew each other from before and would get together at W&L.

[jknezek]

Random W&L question...and same for newly maligned Conn College and Coast Guard...do W&L students, past and/or present, tend to have any interaction or socializing with VMI?

Couldn't tell you about present, but in ancient times (1996-2000) it was a struggle to keep them out of our parties. VMI was mostly male at the time, so they were desperate for female attention. If they had liberty on weekends, they were always trying to crash fraternity parties. Can't tell you how many I threw out over the years. The fraternities hated it. Besides messing up ratios, they drank our liquor, and generally didn't care if the house got damaged or in trouble because it wasn't their problem. On top of that, because of their strict rules, it's not like they ever reciprocated, so it was pretty adversarial.

Now don't get me wrong, there were always a few couples that formed, Rats to W&L girls. Those guys were in a military school, always in shape, and probably pretty nice. I had a good friend at my first job who graduated VMI a couple years before I graduated W&L. It just was not a beneficial relationship for W&L fraternities, so everything was done to keep them out.

We used to play them in rugby and it was always a bloody game. Played a few times for club soccer as well, and it wasn't a pretty game. Axes to grind. We also used to play them in NCAA sports, but that seems to have died off over the years.

I have no idea what the relationship is now, but I do know I enjoyed going over to their museum. Only place I know of where you can see a Nobel Peace Prize (The Marshall Plan) right next to a Best Picture Oscar (Patton). It's a very interesting campus and I have nothing but respect for the college and it's graduates, but at the time, they were a hassle.

[Kuiper]

Random W&L question...and same for newly maligned Conn College and Coast Guard...do W&L students, past and/or present, tend to have any interaction or socializing with VMI?

We used to play them in rugby and it was always a bloody game. Played a few times for club soccer as well, and it wasn't a pretty game. Axes to grind. We also used to play them in NCAA sports, but that seems to have died off over the years.

I can't tell you about other NCAA sports, but in men's soccer, VMI played W&L 43 times between 1967 and 2008, with the last game taking place Sept. 23, 2008.  According to VMI, W&L has a record of 19 wins, 14 losses, and 4 ties against VMI since 1972

https://vmikeydets.com/sports/mens-soccer/opponent-history/washington-and-lee-university/160

W&L has the overall record (which extends farther back to 1967 before D3 existed) as 25-14-4

https://generalssports.com/alltime.aspx?path=msoc&record_type=opponents

If you go to discussion boards about D1 college soccer, VMI often comes up as one of the weakest DI programs in the country.  There are reasons why D1 teams playing against D3 teams didn't make sense for a long time until the rules were loosened a bit recently to allow one (I think) D3 game a year to count for the D1 teams' records, but the fact that W&L overall had the upper hand against VMI couldn't have sat well with VMI officials.

[Another Mom]

I can add two things to this discussion: W&L scrimmaged VMI two years ago (and won, I think 2-0, or maybe 2-1). And VMI men wanting to attend fraternity parties is still happening,  and is still very unpopular with the brothers.

[Hopkins92]

We played the Generals on their field in... 88 or 89? That was, at the time, the most immaculate field I've ever played on. (I think I've mentioned this before, so apologies.)

And if it was 89, that was the best team during my tenure - solid starting XI and some great guys off the bench. Very senior laden. Anyways, I remember that game being a really solid encounter and losing by 1 goal. But I could be wrong.

*goes and looks*

Huh, we played them all four years I was there and split 2-2... The game I remember was a 3-2 loss on their field in 88... Pretty crazy how my brain works. I can't remember to pick up my dry cleaning, but I pull a one goal loss from 35 years ago. That game sticks out because it was the last game I wasn't the starter between the pipes. My dude let in a few really bad goals and the captains went to our coach and I started after that.

/Lake Me

[SierraFD3soccer]

If you go to discussion boards about D1 college soccer, VMI often comes up as one of the weakest DI programs in the country.  There are reasons why D1 teams playing against D3 teams didn't make sense for a long time until the rules were loosened a bit recently to allow one (I think) D3 game a year to count for the D1 teams' records, but the fact that W&L overall had the upper hand against VMI couldn't have sat well with VMI officials.
[/quote]

Yup, VMI, D1 soccer wise is very weak and has for awhile. Ranked in the 200's out of 205 D1 soccer programs. Not sure if it is fully funded (less than 9.9 scholarships) Consistent losing while going through coaches. Never had a winning season or a season with 5 or more wins. Tough sell for recruits on top of the Rat experience. Does not have the advantages of West Point, USNA, USAFA etc where all students do not pay to go to there.

Totals..................51 seasons .........181-620-46  Overall.........53-268-8 Conference

FYI, Citadel similar college to VMI (state associated military academy) does not even have a mens soccer program.

[Hopkins92]

Yeah, Sierra if you hadn't typed that last sentence, I was going to pose the question... What's the point?

[northman]

I can imagine how proud you feel after your son's shout out.  FWIW 30 years ago while on breaks from my own "studies" I spent many nights with dear friends at W&L (at least from what I can recall.)  Soccer was NOT part of my experience, but I did see Dave Mathews perform live in their fraternity house before I (or anyone else) knew who they were.  Very fond memories and a great group of friends. It really is an exceptional school.

Good luck to you and your son this year.

One of two W&L grads on this board I think.  Preceded Dave Matthews by a year or two I think when he and his band was centered in Charlottesville. May have overlapped, but always a good time at any party.  Might have been my fraternity, but with 17 fraternities in my day (only 1200 students and went coed while I was there) may have not been. Virtually everyone joined one.  Played soccer sparsely under the previous coach to the current which was a pretty inconsequential team then and until the day this coach retired was still. W&L until this coach was not even close to being known as a soccer school.  All the current coach working hard and getting great results. I don't think W&L maybe made the NCAAs once if not at all.

As to why I am not rah-rah W&L has less than to do with the current coach, but with W&L and its crazy, crazy cost. Almost criminal in my opinion. Many of the guys who graduated in my time have the same issue, and, like me, would have had their kids go to W&L. Son was recruited and got in early decision, but we couldn't afford (two other younger kids had to go to college as well). It did not make any sense for our family. One of the issues not often discussed on the boards. FYI, when I was at W&L it was fairly affordable for a liberal arts college. Long story.   

I'm class of 2000, so I missed Dave Matthews by a few years but I did, for a time, have the infamous bootleg of him playing at Zollman's Pavilion off campus at a W&L event, maybe sometime in 1993?

Anyway, when I was there the soccer team was decent, always toward the top of the ODAC. Coach Piranian was there for almost 40 years and went 313-242-56 according to W&L's website. He won the ODAC in '86, '89, and '00, reaching the Sweet Sixteen of the NCAAs in '00.

As for the cost, yes, it's ridiculous. And what makes it more ridiculous is it is not out of line with most of the top Liberal Arts schools in the country. It was a "value" school when I was there, expensive, but not near as expensive as its peers. I turned away from a bunch of Centennial Schools since they were much more expensive at the time. Now they all carry a ridiculous sticker. However, the sticker is kind of a joke, as almost no one pays it. W&L's sticker is around 80K a year including room and board. The actual average cost, after scholarships and grants, is about 27K per year.

The whole "industry" is rife with this kind of lunacy. Don't get me wrong, 27k per year is still expensive, but out of state to go to UVA is going to cost 21K after scholarships and grants, so it's not like state schools are a lot better.

Anyway, discussion for a different spot. I'll just say we've been spoiled the last decade with W&L soccer teams. This team doesn't seem to have the same talent, or at least the same ability to win games. Down years happen almost everywhere. I think it will be ODAC tournament champs or no post season for the Generals for the first time since 2014 (not counting COVID).

Love the references to Dave Matthews, which is a common thread in the recent posts.  I took my two sons and one of their friends to a Dave Matthews Band show in magical Fenway Park back in July of 2006.  My older son was about to start his academic and soccer playing career at Brown.  His good friend was heading to Bates, where he would become a soccer team captain in his last two years.  My younger son was a rising high school junior and would head off to play soccer at Bowdoin two years later.

We all loved the band and the show, which was captured on a live 2 CD album!

[SierraFD3soccer]

Good stuff!! Roommates brother went to UVA and was involved in the college radio. He knew Dave and his band pretty well.

[Freddyfud]

Staying with W&L and jam band themes, one of the '93 friends I met at W&L went on tour with Phish as their photographer after graduating.  He has many of their photo credits like these https://www.flickr.com/photos/36045457@N08/3336624319/in/photostream/

Very talented artist and runs a creative company in NYC.  Haven't seen or talked to him in awhile but if I do I'll remind him to contribute to that endowment 

OK enough Memory Lane for me, back to soccer...

[Ron Boerger]

While we're talking about connections with popular music groups, Ed O'Brien of Radiohead has a son, Salvador, a 6'4" defender playing for Trinity(TX).