2023 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective

[Newenglander]

It was from this article https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/sports/college-sports-diversity-amherst.html

Paywall.....

[SimpleCoach]

Serpone has implied that their players of color get carded at a higher rate than white players, and since he has such a diverse team this is one partial/possible explanation for their high numbers. I may be slightly misremembering exactly what he said, but I distinctly remember him saying someone (a student?) did  this analysis.

I didn't do a fine-grained analysis for who gets the yellow cards (and their race), but I wouldn't doubt that differences in referee standards/norms includes outright racism or implicit bias.  Based on a cursory glance at Amherst's roster and the individual card-earners, it doesn't obviously appear to me that players of color got carded at a higher rate than white players in 2022.  Nor does it appear to be obviously true for Middlebury.  But, as I said, I wouldn't doubt that referee bias exists.   You would probably want to do the analysis on a card per minute basis for all players and all schools (at least in the conference) since I would expect biased referees to be biased against players of color on other teams too. You might also want to control for position since some players may be carded more or less than the standard for the position, which may be a better gauge than looking at an average for the team generally.

While I wouldn't be surprised if there is such an instance that you expressed above... we do live in a fragile world of broken people... that's the human condition.... but, this could also be a condition of how they play, how they behave and how they act.  Just because of a "diverse" squad, doesn't take that away or negate the fact that they  push the envelope by the nature of how Amherst plays.  Probably more importantly, if what you write about "implicit", it should be demonstrated elsewhere.  And I am not sure it is.  Plenty of diverse teams out  there.  I think this is more about them, the atmosphere they create from the sidelines, etc., that stands a greater chance of leading to yellow cards than some that may... or may not be in the dark recesses of the mind of a referee that he may have no conscious knowledge of. 

SC.

[Yankeesoccerdad]

Serpone has implied that their players of color get carded at a higher rate than white players, and since he has such a diverse team this is one partial/possible explanation for their high numbers. I may be slightly misremembering exactly what he said, but I distinctly remember him saying someone (a student?) did  this analysis.

I didn't do a fine-grained analysis for who gets the yellow cards (and their race), but I wouldn't doubt that differences in referee standards/norms includes outright racism or implicit bias.  Based on a cursory glance at Amherst's roster and the individual card-earners, it doesn't obviously appear to me that players of color got carded at a higher rate than white players in 2022.  Nor does it appear to be obviously true for Middlebury.  But, as I said, I wouldn't doubt that referee bias exists.   You would probably want to do the analysis on a card per minute basis for all players and all schools (at least in the conference) since I would expect biased referees to be biased against players of color on other teams too. You might also want to control for position since some players may be carded more or less than the standard for the position, which may be a better gauge than looking at an average for the team generally.

Come on--do people really believe this?  It is just a talking point that allows them to be "shocked" when a foul or yellow is called.  Among the things I admire about EnmoreCat s that he fully owns the aggressive style of play Amherst employs. 

In addition to the NYT article, he made this point in his SC interview if I recall.

In addition to the CSO analysis above, someone on the NESCAC thread a couple of years ago did an analysis of fouls and yellows in the NESCAC over a long period (I searched and couldn't find it) and Amherst stood out year over year, regardless of changes in playing style, player demographics, etc.

It is true Amherst is among the more diverse teams in a very white NESCAC.  But they aren't the most diverse and there is nothing to suggest the more diverse teams get more fouls than the less diverse teams or that the Amherst players of color get more fouls than the white players (my eyes and the stat sheet tell me it is the opposite in fact).

I don't deny that there is bias in soccer and in life and that could be a factor in fouls/yellows generally, but it isn't the reason Amherst has a high foul/yellow count.

[Hopkins92]

It was from this article https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/sports/college-sports-diversity-amherst.html

Paywall.....

Hilarious.

[PaulNewman]

Serpone has implied that their players of color get carded at a higher rate than white players, and since he has such a diverse team this is one partial/possible explanation for their high numbers. I may be slightly misremembering exactly what he said, but I distinctly remember him saying someone (a student?) did  this analysis.

I didn't do a fine-grained analysis for who gets the yellow cards (and their race), but I wouldn't doubt that differences in referee standards/norms includes outright racism or implicit bias.  Based on a cursory glance at Amherst's roster and the individual card-earners, it doesn't obviously appear to me that players of color got carded at a higher rate than white players in 2022.  Nor does it appear to be obviously true for Middlebury.  But, as I said, I wouldn't doubt that referee bias exists.   You would probably want to do the analysis on a card per minute basis for all players and all schools (at least in the conference) since I would expect biased referees to be biased against players of color on other teams too. You might also want to control for position since some players may be carded more or less than the standard for the position, which may be a better gauge than looking at an average for the team generally.

While I wouldn't be surprised if there is such an instance that you expressed above... we do live in a fragile world of broken people... that's the human condition.... but, this could also be a condition of how they play, how they behave and how they act.  Just because of a "diverse" squad, doesn't take that away or negate the fact that they  push the envelope by the nature of how Amherst plays.  Probably more importantly, if what you write about "implicit", it should be demonstrated elsewhere.  And I am not sure it is.  Plenty of diverse teams out  there.  I think this is more about them, the atmosphere they create from the sidelines, etc., that stands a greater chance of leading to yellow cards than some that may... or may not be in the dark recesses of the mind of a referee that he may have no conscious knowledge of. 

SC.

This.

[paclassic89]

It was from this article https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/sports/college-sports-diversity-amherst.html

Paywall.....

https://archive.ph/6l8oT

[PaulNewman]

Serpone has implied that their players of color get carded at a higher rate than white players, and since he has such a diverse team this is one partial/possible explanation for their high numbers. I may be slightly misremembering exactly what he said, but I distinctly remember him saying someone (a student?) did  this analysis.

I didn't do a fine-grained analysis for who gets the yellow cards (and their race), but I wouldn't doubt that differences in referee standards/norms includes outright racism or implicit bias.  Based on a cursory glance at Amherst's roster and the individual card-earners, it doesn't obviously appear to me that players of color got carded at a higher rate than white players in 2022.  Nor does it appear to be obviously true for Middlebury.  But, as I said, I wouldn't doubt that referee bias exists.   You would probably want to do the analysis on a card per minute basis for all players and all schools (at least in the conference) since I would expect biased referees to be biased against players of color on other teams too. You might also want to control for position since some players may be carded more or less than the standard for the position, which may be a better gauge than looking at an average for the team generally.

Come on--do people really believe this?  It is just a talking point that allows them to be "shocked" when a foul or yellow is called.  Among the things I admire about EnmoreCat s that he fully owns the aggressive style of play Amherst employs. 

In addition to the NYT article, he made this point in his SC interview if I recall.

In addition to the CSO analysis above, someone on the NESCAC thread a couple of years ago did an analysis of fouls and yellows in the NESCAC over a long period (I searched and couldn't find it) and Amherst stood out year over year, regardless of changes in playing style, player demographics, etc.

It is true Amherst is among the more diverse teams in a very white NESCAC.  But they aren't the most diverse and there is nothing to suggest the more diverse teams get more fouls than the less diverse teams or that the Amherst players of color get more fouls than the white players (my eyes and the stat sheet tell me it is the opposite in fact).

I don't deny that there is bias in soccer and in life and that could be a factor in fouls/yellows generally, but it isn't the reason Amherst has a high foul/yellow count.

And bingo.

Maybe NC Wesleyan might have an argument...but any suggestion that treatment of Amherst is due to diversity and biased foul calls....in some singularly differential way compared with other schools with equal or greater diversity that in almost all cases don't enjoy the privilege and status of an Amherst...seems like a very large stretch.

It's akin to Messiah being touted as very uniquely and singularly as a victim of professional fouls.  Inferior teams compensate the best they can against superior and far superior squads....the same as Messiah would do playing Maryland or UVA or UCLA.

It's like arguing that the teams with the greatest resources and advantages are the most oppressed ones.

On fouls, as long as we're speculating, consider the possibility that the foul numbers are lower than they should be.  At what point does referee fatigue play a role?  Or letting a fair amount go just because the flow of the game gets so disrupted?  Or in a conference like the NESCAC or NJAC the bar for physical play is higher and normalized in some way. 

What seems just as egregious and maybe getting worse (or I'm just noticing a lot more) is teams (and I mean all of them) getting away with gaining 10-15 yards on throw-ins and/or 5-10 yards for free kicks.  Especially with throw-ins, players grab a ball 10 yards ahead of where it was supposed to be and then on top of that add a good 5-10 yard run before finally releasing the ball.

[SKUD]

PN-spot on!  The "improving my lie" like they are Judge Smails in caddyshack  really chaps my ass...unless it is the team I am cheering for doing it

[northman]

The reality is that most, if not all, of the highly endowed liberal arts colleges are actively seeking diversity...and that mission has clearly been expressed to their athletic departments.  Amherst may be somewhat ahead in its diversification efforts, but all of the NESCACs are significantly more diverse than they were even 10 years ago.  I would imagine that soccer, along with basketball, have the most diverse rosters among the range of sports offered.

I personally don't buy Serpone's assertion...and thanks to paclassic 89 for the archived version of the NYT article.  One of the points discussed by SC in his interview with Serpone last year was his philosophy about pressing the opposition and making them uncomfortable.  Some of this translates to a higher number of fouls than most teams.  It really is that simple...

[WUPHF]

From the story:

In his 12 full seasons at Amherst, Serpone has analyzed the minutes played by each player and determined that athletes of color have been on the field for 42 percent of all Amherst games but have received 62 percent of all yellow cards and 90 percent of all red cards issued.

"It's not a small sample size for us: We're talking 250 yellow cards," Serpone said. "What I'm not saying is referees are racist. But I think there's an implicit bias because we don't look like the other teams.

It would be interesting to know if the coach did this analysis as part of one of his five Masters degrees.  Or plans to analyze this further as part of the three Masters degrees he is currently pursuing.

[WUPHF]

I am not sure how much I trust someone who thinks earning 7-8 Masters degrees is a worthwhile endeavor but to each, his own.

[PaulNewman]

From the story:

In his 12 full seasons at Amherst, Serpone has analyzed the minutes played by each player and determined that athletes of color have been on the field for 42 percent of all Amherst games but have received 62 percent of all yellow cards and 90 percent of all red cards issued.

"It's not a small sample size for us: We're talking 250 yellow cards," Serpone said. "What I'm not saying is referees are racist. But I think there's an implicit bias because we don't look like the other teams.

It would be interesting to know if the coach did this analysis as part of one of his five Masters degrees.  Or plans to analyze this further as part of the three Masters degrees he is currently pursuing.

I guess there is implicit bias....because until now I never thought of Amherst looking much different than any other teams, and I can't think of a single Amherst minority soccer player over the past decade who was unfairly targeted.  To be honest, I can't think of that many minority players for Amherst prior to the current crew....maybe the Caracas twins, Hope-Gund?  Like who exactly was getting all these cards?

[PaulNewman]

The reality is that most, if not all, of the highly endowed liberal arts colleges are actively seeking diversity...and that mission has clearly been expressed to their athletic departments.  Amherst may be somewhat ahead in its diversification efforts, but all of the NESCACs are significantly more diverse than they were even 10 years ago.  I would imagine that soccer, along with basketball, have the most diverse rosters among the range of sports offered.

I personally don't buy Serpone's assertion...and thanks to paclassic 89 for the archived version of the NYT article.  One of the points discussed by SC in his interview with Serpone last year was his philosophy about pressing the opposition and making them uncomfortable.  Some of this translates to a higher number of fouls than most teams.  It really is that simple...

Yes to all of this imo.  To take the 'diversity' a step further here that some may not appreciate....the phenomenon northman describes imo was at least partly a function of the arms race among the most elite LACs (NESCAC and non-NESCAC) and private universities.  Diversity is now a notable point of pride that becomes a selling point in the advertising and marketing geared towards the traditional client base.  In other words, they're selling diversity to me as a parent who is likely to put my white kids into the elite college search mix.  Increasing diversity and enhancing the perception of increased diversity are now "must-haves."  And while I'm sure there are exceptions, the diversity is often a limited kind of diversity....with not a lot of  inner city minorities from average to below average inner city high schools...and where international students also are used to bolster the diversity percentages.  Put another way, is a minority athlete more likely to land at a NESCAC from a Jeremiah Burke HS in Dorchester, MA or a Loomis Chaffee?

[jknezek]

I am not sure how much I trust someone who thinks earning 7-8 Masters degrees is a worthwhile endeavor but to each, his own.

Why not? There are a lot of people who just really enjoy being a student. I wouldn't want to pay for them, but I assume working for higher ed his education is paid for. Eons ago, when I was graduating college, I interviewed with a strange department within the Department of Defense. Civilian job, but I had to go through all the security checks just to be interviewed. One of the big selling points of the job, which paid a middling government salary even if it seemed like a very cool position though it might have sounded cooler than it was in practice, was that the government paid for any higher education you wanted. Didn't have to be relevant to your job. Everyone in that department had at least one Masters, or the newest hires were working on one. The people I interviewed with had 9, plus a doctorate, 6, plus a doctorate, and 4, while working on a doctorate. And some of those degrees were in weird stuff that they just wanted to explore for fun.

None of them were past their mid-40s, as far as I could tell, they were some of the most interesting and impressive people I ever interviewed with, but they freely admitted they banged around in the DoD because they loved to go to school as a hobby and it was completely paid for, plus other government benefits. I actually thought the job was cooler than the benefits, and probably would have taken it if I hadn't gotten a substantially better offer, but I think it's really interesting that there are people who essentially want to be professional learners and can find ways to make it happen as a passion.

Now I think Serpone complaining about fouls and cards, given his preferred style, is laughable, regardless of the research he's done or the very real racism that does exist in this country. I don't prefer to watch Amherst, or really much NESCAC, soccer at all, while admiring their success. But I do admire someone with a thirst to learn. Having a bunch of graduate degrees is just a consequence of that thirst.

[WUPHF]

Why not? There are a lot of people who just really enjoy being a student. I wouldn't want to pay for them, but I assume working for higher ed his education is paid for. [...]

I am not sure, that is why I expressed doubt about it.

I continue to take college level classes and have a useless Masters certificate in addition to my first Masters degree.  His path seems odd though.

If Amherst is paying for them, then they either have the best benefits package in higher education or he has a sweetheart deal within the department.