Top D3 Men's Soccer Rivalries

Started by Kuiper, July 29, 2023, 08:43:55 PM

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WUPHF

Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 11:25:12 AM

Biggest rivalry in the UAA?


I think the answer varies season to season depending on who is winning. 


Gregory Sager

Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 09:58:21 AMBasically have to include any rivalry that involves a Bell, or Jug, or marshmellows, or whatever.

Football trophy rivalries, for all their intensity, don't necessarily carry over to other sports. Some certainly do (DePauw v. Wabash, for instance), but some don't. North Central and Wheaton play every year for the Little Brass Bell, a trophy rivalry so ancient it dates back to when the villages of Naperville and Wheaton were still fighting over which would be the county seat of DuPage County in northeastern Illinois, and it is extremely intense and competitive, given that those two schools are (coincidentally) the two top powers in CCIW football and have been so for a number of years. Yet the intensity of the rivalry is far less in other sports; Wheaton considers its top soccer rival to be North Park and its top basketball rival to be Illinois Wesleyan.

The biggest and best basketball rivalry in D3 -- outstripping even Amherst v. Williams and DePauw v. Wabash -- is Calvin v. Hope, and that's a rivalry that doesn't even have a football component (although Calvin is finally knuckling under and starting a football program that will take the field for the first time in 2024, invalidating all of those Calvin t-shirts that say "Calvin football -- undefeated since 1876"). Their rivalry is referred to in western Michigan as The Rivalry (capital T, capital R), which sounds presumptuous but definitely lives up to its title. And it absolutely does bleed over into other sports, as Calvin and Hope could face each other in horseshoes or Settlers of Catan and it would still be hyped up by both schools beyond all reasonableness. They have a rivalry similar to RPI vs. Union in that they're just a half-hour's drive from each other and both share a Dutch heritage (RPI and Union play for the Dutchman's Shoes trophy), but Calvin v. Hope is also deepened by a religious element; each school represents one of the two American Protestant denominations of Reformed heritage that sprang from Dutch immigration to the U.S., the Reformed Church of America (Hope) and the Christian Reformed Church (Calvin). And, because historically both schools have been dominated by relatively local-based student bodies (western Michigan is awash in shoes -- "shoes" being the preferred, benign ethnic term for Dutch-Americans), it often seems as though everybody at Calvin has friends and/or family who are Hope people, or at least has Hope student/alumni acquaintances, and vice-versa.

Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 09:58:21 AM
North Park vs Wheaton clearly is a great one, especially historically and also currently (with the caveat that Wheaton slippage in recent years should be factored in).

Wheaton's slippage hasn't affected the rivalry in any way whatsoever. It's still the most well-attended game each year for both schools, and Wheaton has managed to hold its own against the Vikings in recent seasons despite fielding inferior teams. Wheaton defeated NPU in the regular season last year in Chicago, although the Vikings got their revenge on Wheaton's home pitch in the CCIW tournament semifinals. The year before, it was reversed: North Park beat Wheaton in the regular season in Wheaton, and Wheaton knocked CCIW champion North Park out of the league tournament in Chicago in the semis.

John Born was hired by North Park prior to the 1999 season to take over a team that had won one game in 1998. From the inception of North Park soccer in 1981 through '98, the Vikings lost all 18 games they played against Wheaton, with WC outscoring the Vikings 79-7 over that stretch. North Park didn't even score a goal against Wheaton until the seventh game between the two programs. That was pretty typical of what Wheaton did against every CCIW opponent in the '80s and '90s, not just North Park. In English soccer terms, the Crusaders (that was Wheaton's nickname until 2002 or thereabouts) were a Premier League team while the other CCIW programs were National League teams. But since Born took over (and then passed the baton to his protege Kris Grahn), the series has been pretty even; Wheaton leads 15-13-5 and currently holds a ten-goal lead over NPU over that stretch of 33 games. Over that span of 23 seasons since Born was hired, Wheaton has won 11 CCIW titles (although none since 2015) and North Park has won 7.

Quote from: stlawus on July 30, 2023, 01:31:12 PMFor this region Oneonta-Cortland is pretty decent, but I don't know if it's true rivalry status in the sense of what I think a true rivalry is.

It ought to be, as not only do the two SUNY schools share a conference, they also share a nickname: Red Dragons.

Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 11:25:12 AM
Is Trinity (TX) vs Colorado Coll a thing?

Trinity (TX)'s traditional rival is Southwestern, from what I've been told, but I don't know if that carries over into soccer or not.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

PaulNewman

#17
+k Mr. Sager...great stuff.

Just one clarification from my pov...I think one can argue that rivalry can mean rivalry internal to the two schools which survives and outlives down periods on either side while externally I'm likely to focus on which rivalries are most intense and relevant currently.... notwithstanding the "on any given day" or "you can toss out the records for this one" a la Keith Jackson. 

More simply, to borrow a prior example....Williams vs Amherst I'm sure hasn't diminished for the schools themselves and those most directly connected to the schools while externally one can argue that Amherst vs Tufts in recent years has been the bigger rivalry currently at least from a national and/or neutral perspective.

Fwiw,  I'm far more enthralled with the budding NP vs NCU rivalry currently than I am  NP vs Wheaton even tho I know historically the former isn't in the same universe.

WUPHF

Quote from: Gregory Sager on July 31, 2023, 12:27:33 PM
Football trophy rivalries, for all their intensity, don't necessarily carry over to other sports.

I find this to be one of the more interesting aspects of small college rivalries.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: PaulNewman on July 31, 2023, 01:32:05 PM
+k Mr. Sager...great stuff.

Just one clarification from my pov...I think one can argue that rivalry can mean rivalry internal to the two schools which survives and outlives down periods on either side while externally I'm likely to focus on which rivalries are most intense and relevant currently.... notwithstanding the "on any given day" or "you can toss out the records for this one" a la Keith Jackson. 

More simply, to borrow a prior example....Williams vs Amherst I'm sure hasn't diminished for the schools themselves and those most directly connected to the schools while externally one can argue that Amherst vs Tufts in recent years has been the bigger rivalry currently at least from a national and/or neutral perspective.

That's fair, although I think that most people interpret "rivalry" in the first sense: a long-standing affair of bad blood between two teams and/or their supporters. I do agree that it's probably useful to note that "rivalry" may in a subtle way be one of those words that incorporates two distinct meanings.

Quote from: PaulNewman on July 31, 2023, 01:32:05 PMFwiw,  I'm far more enthralled with the budding NP vs NCU rivalry currently than I am  NP vs Wheaton even tho I know historically the former isn't in the same universe.

It's "NPU vs. NCC" -- North Central (MN) is NCU, and North Central (IL) is NCC -- and, if I may toot my own horn a bit here, I am doing my best to push the new paradigm of Vikings-versus-Cardinals being the primo dustup du jour in CCIW soccer in spite of the fact that NPU vs. Wheaton is (and probably will always be) the biggest rivalry. I'm doing it by noting that NCC head coach Enzo Fuschino, an Italian immigrant, has taken to importing altissima qualità international players from his homeland such as Matteo Innocenti, Jacobo de Collibus, and Edoardo Bonifacio that are definitely helping to shift the CCIW's power dynamic, while NPU head coach Kris Grahn, a native of Sweden, has not only continued the long-standing North Park practice of featuring players from Sweden and Norway, he's currently opening the spigot on the flow of players from Scandinavia from "stream" to "flood".

My contribution, which I plan to use on the air early and often this fall, is to give NPU men's soccer versus NCC men's soccer a name: the Meatball Rivalry.

It's köttbullar versus polpette. Let the best miniature sphere of ground meat win!



"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Gregory Sager

Quote from: WUPHF on July 31, 2023, 03:02:34 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on July 31, 2023, 12:27:33 PM
Football trophy rivalries, for all their intensity, don't necessarily carry over to other sports.

I find this to be one of the more interesting aspects of small college rivalries.

If I had to hazard a theory for that, it would have something to do with the fact that football isn't the 500-pound gorilla in D3 and the NAIA that it is on the D1 level. Football doesn't bring in the beaucoup bucks for the athletic departments of small colleges that it does for the big boys, which means that small colleges tend to have more balance when it comes to identity issues. Football still draws more fans than other sports on the small-school level, and it (naturally) has a bigger presence within the student body itself, but it's not as though D3 and NAIA schools are practically synonymous with their football teams the way that they are at the FBS level in D1. I don't think that even Mount Union has ever been viewed as a football team with a school attached to it, unlike, say, Alabama or LSU or Penn State.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

College Soccer Observer

Quote from: Gregory Sager on July 29, 2023, 10:29:45 PM
North Park v. Wheaton

In the '80s and '90s, the other CCIW men's soccer programs were nothing more than a series of speed bumps that Wheaton annually drove across on its way to the D3 tournament. That began to change around the turn of the millennium after North Park had hired John Born to run its men's soccer program. By the late Teens, Wheaton students were showing up for games wearing orange shirts that said BEAT NORTH PARK on them.

There have been other solid programs in recent years in the CCIW (Carthage for quite a while, North Central nowadays), but this is the men's soccer rivalry in this neck of the woods.

Best chant I ever heard when officiating a Wheaton vs North Park game at North Park in the 2000's came from the North Park student section.  "We go to chapel because we want to, not because we have to"

Kuiper

Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 11:25:12 AM
I highly recommend you find that desk and take it to Pawn Stars...

A few I don't have a sense for...

Pac NW?

Is Trinity (TX) vs Colorado Coll a thing?


As to the Pacific NW, I think Pacific Lutheran v. Puget Sound may be the biggest historic rivalry, although Pacific Lutheran and Willamette have been big games more recently.

I don't think Trinity v. Colorado College has been a rivalry per se, although they have had great games and I think most teams in the SCAC would consider the Trinity game a big game because of their historic dominance.  As someone else said, Southwestern has probably been Trinity's historic rival, although St. Thomas v. Trinity has quickly become a big game in the SCAC very recently.

Ron Boerger

Quote from: Kuiper on July 31, 2023, 11:22:12 PM
[...]

I don't think Trinity v. Colorado College has been a rivalry per se, although they have had great games and I think most teams in the SCAC would consider the Trinity game a big game because of their historic dominance.  As someone else said, Southwestern has probably been Trinity's historic rival, although St. Thomas v. Trinity has quickly become a big game in the SCAC very recently.

Agree.  CC and SW are generally "rivals" in most sports because they are the two SCAC schools which have given Trinity the greatest challenges over time; StT more recently in men's soccer.  For whatever reason there aren't really any big rivals in the sense PN is looking for (in any sport) down there.   Part of it comes from there not really being a lot of student support in most of them until fairly recently, another from virtually none of the millions in the metro giving a rat's ass about the school, preferring to chase the shiny balls of the two recent local additions to the D1 ranks. 

SierraFD3soccer

Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 11:25:12 AM

Hopkins vs F&M up and coming?


Having watched two JHU v. F&M in person and spoken to several people, I would say yes at least on the F&M side.  Whoever wins gets a big boost for their season. It is probably an internal team rivalry more than student population.  Last ten years, 10 regular season and 4 post season, 7 F&M wins, 2 ties and 5 loses.

One rivalry which may have bigger is earlier for F&M when Elizabethtown had more success is the Elizabethtown v. F&M rivalry game where whoever wins gets the "Smith-Herr" Trophy which the guys call the "Golden Boot."  https://godiplomats.com/news/2022/9/10/9_10_2022_220.aspx  Check out the picture. Elizabethtown definitely dominated early and now it has been more F&M.

Established in 1978, the trophy is to memorialize the memories of former F&M coach Robert Smith and longtime Elizabethtown Athletic Director Ira Herr. The Bronze Boot is a bronzed soccer shoe originally worn by Al Hershey, who played for the Jays and later coached at Franklin & Marshall.

Just to tie together F&M rivalries, Elizabethtown and JHU are "Blue Jays." So they might just be a natural rivalries of F&M.

SierraFD3soccer

As to W&L's rivalries, Hampden Sqidney was the team to beat in any competition in my day.  W&L and the Squids were two of last all-male colleges at that time.

Soccer wise now, I would say W&L's rivals are either Lynchburg or Roanoke or both depending on how they are playing. All three have excellent coaches with W&L getting the best of three. 

W&L is a bit of anomaly in ODAC as it has really hard academics and so you would think it would not have great sports.  However, since it has excellent academics, it can recruit from all over the US as opposed to ODAC which is usually limited to recruiting VA, WVA, NC and MD players. 

Kuiper

I think some of the assumptions about traditional rivalries from people unfamiliar with an area are based on the fact that universities that have similar academics/student bodies are natural rivals.  For example, in Minnesota it might be Macalester v. Carleton, which, like W&L, also both recruit more nationally than some other schools that might be more Minnesota focused.  I recently had an opportunity to ask a Macalester player whether Carleton was the big rival.  He agreed that it was a big game, but he also mentioned St. Olaf and Gustavus Adolphus. I took that to mean that they are big games because they have been the "teams to beat" in the conference more than that there are historic bragging rights at stake like with a cross-town rival or something like that.  In fact,on the latter front, it might be that Carleton and St. Olaf are bigger rivals since they are only 5 minutes away from each other in Northfield, MN.

Another Mom

Glad for another W&L supporter on the board!

I would just add that not only does W&L recruit nationally,  they have a few international players as well.

WUPHF

Quote from: Gregory Sager on July 31, 2023, 03:52:24 PM
If I had to hazard a theory for that, it would have something to do with the fact that football isn't the 500-pound gorilla in D3 and the NAIA that it is on the D1 level. Football doesn't bring in the beaucoup bucks for the athletic departments of small colleges that it does for the big boys, which means that small colleges tend to have more balance when it comes to identity issues. Football still draws more fans than other sports on the small-school level, and it (naturally) has a bigger presence within the student body itself, but it's not as though D3 and NAIA schools are practically synonymous with their football teams the way that they are at the FBS level in D1. I don't think that even Mount Union has ever been viewed as a football team with a school attached to it, unlike, say, Alabama or LSU or Penn State.

I think this is the biggest part of the explanation, yes.

WUPHF

Quote from: Kuiper on August 01, 2023, 10:08:40 AM
I took that to mean that they are big games because they have been the "teams to beat" in the conference more than that there are historic bragging rights at stake like with a cross-town rival or something like that. 

I said this about the UAA, but the teams to beat has to be phenomenon is surely a thing throughout the country.

It would be interesting to survey student-athletes, but I have to think that every team has 3-4 rivals.  I think, for example, the Washington University players would refer to Wheaton as a rival.  The Bears have played Wheaton more than almost anyone else outside the UAA, the games are always physical, almost always have regional rankings implications, etc...