2023 NCAA Tournament

[jknezek]

Having finally watched a full Amherst game, along with some of the comments/sentiments expressed on this board a couple questions/comments:

1.  What is the draw for this program?  They do not play a good brand of soccer.  They play the type of soccer perpetuated at the youth level.  Big/aggressive kids that lack technical/tactical skills using size/aggression to win games.   (not saying the Amherst players aren't good players but the style of play does not showcase this if they are indeed technical/tactical)

2.  Their coach has multiple masters degrees in leadership yet his team lacks leadership as noted by antics, lack of self discipline/control. 

3.  Why do refs allow the players to get away with the repeated fouls?  One plater in natty had 2 hard fouls early on - easy yellow yet not given.  Refs could put an easy end to this behavior by controlling the game (and I am not just saying for this team - seems like refs are hesitant to give yellows in general this past year)

1) It's a program that wins at a top tier academic school in a top tier soccer conference with a coach who is one of the best recruiters in D3

2) I think the team has leadership, I think it's just more permissive than most posters on this board think is appropriate. The behavior that we find over the top is modeled by the leaders, and with a very animated coach who is often found bending the ref's ear all game long. The bench is encouraged to be loud and active all game long. That is leadership, it's just not the leadership I prefer. However, all the Amherst parents I spoke with in Salem say their kids love Serpone. And even a few players/parents from opposing teams loved being recruited by him and respected him.

3) This is the one that gets me. If the refs would crack down on the physical play it would become a detriment. As I said in the W&L/Amherst game, the ref was very consistent and seemed not to want to make the game about him. So a lot of fouls were called out by the midfield circle, but the same infraction was not called in and around the penalty box. It's frustrating.

[SierraFD3soccer]

Great game! All played well. Amherst kept St.Olaf below their goal average, but probably had too many injuries to win.

Once again we have to go to the too many games in such a short time. A day off not to sufficient for quality soccer. I don't know why the announcers were saying that over and over.

Though Amherst is 1-4 now, most of us would say they would trade places any time. Hey, they are ahead of the Buffalo Bills!

As to the keeper out of the box I agree that the ball has to be totally out. We are also watching it from above as opposed to being on the field and or too far away from the play. If the center do not see or the AR does not clearly see, no call just like the hand ball calls which would have affected the game much more.

Would you prefer not having a day off in between? I think it was a great move by the NCAA to give these players a chance to recover.

Nope more days. Too be an effective team, players have to have at least 72 hours recovery between matches and not play more than 3 matches over two weeks.  Soccer is not American football or lacrosse, but players still need more time too be their best. May be just a "too bad, so sad" situation, but you can't take it seriously and expect teams to be playing well.

You'll notice that D1 mens soccer have three days between semis and finals as well as 5 days between quarters and semis.  D1 womens have a similar schedule. They are non revenue sport as well.

It's just not in the cards at this level. Too expensive and too much missed class time. We are fortunate we don't have back to back days anymore.

Yes, fortunate for three games out of the 63 games played during the tournament.

As to too much class time missed, hmmm. Let's say for the first 2 rounds with 64 teams, game Thursday and the next round Sunday. These teams would miss classes potentially Wednesday (assuming that they have travel a long way to get to the site - 16 teams are hosting so they will not have miss any classes - 1/4 would not be affected). Many would not miss classes on Wednesday, because they may be a reasonable bus ride away from the host site and can travel on Thursday morning. After this weekend there are only 16 teams remaining. Of those 16 teams, 4 will be hosting so once again they will not have to miss classes. We also have the ability to do remote learning now. In 4 instances this year, Middlebury, Tufts, U. of Chi and U. of Mary Washington did not miss any classes since they hosted the first 4 rounds. This is not uncommon. As to the rest, they could possibly attend classes remotely for all or some they missed. D1 athletes somehow miss classes during the season all the time. 

Son played D1 and some of his weekday away games were long bus rides.  For weekday games which generally were on Wednesday nights, they would travel after classes on Tues, study on Wed before the game and then arrive back on campus sometimes at 3 or 4 in the morning and go to classes that day. These players survived.  Many D1 players are in airplane leagues where the travel was even more.  This was often 4 or 5 times a season.

Missing classes is not really a reason.

It is about the money and I get that. If you want quality and have the best teams have a shot at winning, then you will have to invest. If you want a survivor series where the least injured team make it through, then you have what you have.  So an extra day for 2 teams is nice, but looking at the whole picture pretty small.

I wonder if the NCAA/D3 has even looked at least at what the costs would be for 3rd and quarters rounds for 12 teams (4 hosts would not be affected) to have a rest day in between these rounds. They could look at have games Saturday and Monday. 12 teams travel Friday after classes. 8 or less travel home on Sunday assuming that the 4 host teams win the 3rd round. No missed classes and possibly no additional or minimal expenses incurred when scheduling the 8 teams going home.

By no means, and I am sure many would back me up, am I brilliant thinking through this and I am sure that I missed something or mangled some numbers.

[College Soccer Observer]

Combining the reply to this question with several others about willingness of referees to give cards.  This is a complicated issue. 
I have compiled data for the last four complete seasons https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oVIm2Bv1lgbTZqF0aZdec-2YzZJvBGK-bhBkbZr0fBU/edit?usp=sharing  This is data for all 40 of the conferences that have an automatic qualifier in division 3 men's soccer.  I have highlighted conferences based in New England in yellow (you will see why if you bear with me).  A summary of the findings:  There are seven conferences that are primarily in New England:  Commonwealth Coast Conference (CCC), Great Northeast Athletic Conference (GNAC), Little East Conference (LEC), Massachusetts State Athletic Conference (MASCAC), New England Women and Men's Athletic Conference (NEWMAC), New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC) and North Atlantic Conference (NEC). 

National Ranking in yellow cards per team for 2023
MASCAC 12th
LEC 15th
NESCAC 27th (and it was much lower before the NCAA tournament)
NEWMAC 33rd
NAC 38th
CCC 39th
GNAC 40th

2022 Rankings
MASCAC 33rd
NEWMAC 34th
NAC 35th
NESCAC 36th
GNAC 37th
LEC 38th
CCC 39th

2021 Rankings
LEC 23rd
NESCAC 24th
NEWMAC 29th
GNAC 31st
NAC 36th
MASCAC 38th
CCC 40th

2019 Rankings
LEC 13th
MASCAC 19th
CCC 30th
NAC 32nd
NESCAC 34th
NEWMAC 36th
GNAC 39th

The LEC and the MASCAC are the only New England Conferences to finish in the top half of the yellows per team ranking, and each did so twice.

[Gregory Sager]

If I can ever figure out how this karma feature works I'll smash the $#&(! out of it for this  .

Just as an FYI, you need to reach 200 posts before you have the ability to affect karma (applaud or smite).

[College Soccer Observer]

Refs and Cards Part 2

As you can see by my prior post, New England referees in general are very slow to give cards compare to the rest of the country. So why is this the case?  First, several of these conferences are assigned by the same individual (NESCAC and GNAC).  With respect to the NESCAC, the coaches get what they want.  They do not want players suspended for card accumulation, and they do not want referees who give out a lot of cards on their matches.  The coaches are very influential in picking the assignor.  NESCAC games in particular are perceived to be among the best college games in the country, and referees want to be chosen to do those games, so they adjust their behavior accordingly.  A second complicating factor is that within New England, states such as Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine do not have a broad base of highly competitive youth and amateur leagues that are crucial to referee development.  Massachusetts and Connecticut do have this, but these referees are incentivized by #1 above.  Third, while the NCAA can and does issue points of emphasis and provide referee education, the bottom line is that referees are more concerned about pleasing their regular season assignor than an organization that only assigns post-season games. 

[PaulNewman]

The announcers during the W&L-Amherst game commented that there were a lot of "extracurriculars" behind the play that video viewers could not see.  Anyone have any insight about this or know what they may be been talking about?

[Freddyfud]

Refs and Cards Part 2

As you can see by my prior post, New England referees in general are very slow to give cards compare to the rest of the country. So why is this the case?  First, several of these conferences are assigned by the same individual (NESCAC and GNAC).  With respect to the NESCAC, the coaches get what they want.  They do not want players suspended for card accumulation, and they do not want referees who give out a lot of cards on their matches.  The coaches are very influential in picking the assignor.  NESCAC games in particular are perceived to be among the best college games in the country, and referees want to be chosen to do those games, so they adjust their behavior accordingly.  A second complicating factor is that within New England, states such as Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine do not have a broad base of highly competitive youth and amateur leagues that are crucial to referee development.  Massachusetts and Connecticut do have this, but these referees are incentivized by #1 above.  Third, while the NCAA can and does issue points of emphasis and provide referee education, the bottom line is that referees are more concerned about pleasing their regular season assignor than an organization that only assigns post-season games.

Let's hope the Massachusetts State Police are more judicious giving cautions

[jknezek]

The announcers during the W&L-Amherst game commented that there were a lot of "extracurriculars" behind the play that video viewers could not see.  Anyone have any insight about this or know what they may be been talking about?

Having been there it was a very physical game both on and off the ball. On all deadball situations, throws, penalties, corners, there was an incredible amount of pushing and shoving and grabbing and grappling. W&L players were just being trucked over every time the ball was played into the Amherst box, whether they were the ball target or not. So if that is what the announcers were talking about I'd agree.

If they were talking about extracurriculars after the play was over, I did not see anything significant. I didn't see anything I'd call unsportsmanlike on the field. No pushing or shoving over tackles, no groups of players confronting an opponent, no purposely late kicks or punches if they thought the ref wasn't looking. It was physical, but I didn't see anything I'd consider a cheap shot type play if you get my meaning.

I'd just say the ref was very permissive in what he allowed Amherst to do deep in their territory. He was much less permissive about it on goal kicks and punts and 50/50s out toward midfield, and I have to believe this was his compromise to keep the game under control, but to try to affect the outcome as little as possible.

[Kuiper]

So next year the Final 4 is in Las Vegas. I'm going to go on record as saying I hate when the NCAA does this. Closest D3 school to Las Vegas? One of the SCIAC schools at 3.5 to 4 hours. I don't have a problem with moving it around the country, but I do have a problem moving it to areas that simply have no interest in D3. I get weather in late Nov/early Dec is an issue. Even Salem was not very nice weather-wise. But I just don't understand giving it to an area that forces just about everyone onto a plane. Salem may not be the easiest place to get to, but it's driving distance for most teams in the lower midwest, mid-atlantic, even parts of the northeast and south. The areas with overwhelming D3 support.

Sure Salem is far for St. Olaf and Colorado College, but you aren't choosing to play out toward them in December anyway. Las Vegas??? Uggh for everything except weather and, hopefully, facilities.

The last time the final four was held anywhere as far west as Las Vegas was in 1991 at UC San Diego, so if 33 years is too frequent for you than you might as well just bar holding the final four in the far west altogether (and perhaps give up on the idea that DIII can have a real "national" championship).  If your concern is about holding the final four in a city without D3 programs, then the last time that happened was in 2015 in Kansas City, so it's been almost a decade.  There is one school a little over 2 hours (Westminster) and a few others within a 3-4 hour radius, but none in Kansas City, MO itself or anywhere closer.  The closest DIII to Las Vegas is Redlands at 3 hours and 17 minutes (and that's if you aren't pushing the speed limit  ), and La Verne is 3 hours and 23 minutes, so it's not that much different than Kansas City.  If your concern is cost, Las Vegas is probably a cheaper flight and hotels than a lot of locations, especially Roanoke.  It's also easier to get non-stop flights that don't require you to take a long bus ride.  It might even be cheaper to fly all four teams there than many locations where only three teams needed to fly.

It would be more expensive for parents and fans from other parts of the country to get to Vegas than somewhere on the east coast, but Occidental fans traveled to San Antonio and to Amherst(!) in large numbers, St. Olaf fans were in Salem, and Cal Lutheran women's fans even made it to Salem, which is a pretty significant trip.  After all, if EnmoreCat could travel from Australia to Salem, VA, I'm sure he would come next year to Vegas!  My guess is more than a few of these parents and college students have made trips to Las Vegas voluntarily before (purely for educational purposes, of course).

The reality is that DIII schools are part of the college ecosystem that has been the most financially vulnerable and, while schools have been closing everywhere, the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, the traditional base of DIII schools, have had more than their fair share.  The one possible avenue to shore up membership is from NAIA schools in the midwest and far west.  I know some Arizona schools that have been toying with idea of moving to DIII and this is the kind of thing that helps them to demonstrate their commitment to the area.  It's good for DIII's survival to grow in the west and this is probably worth a shot to see how it goes.

[SierraFD3soccer]

Refs and Cards Part 2

As you can see by my prior post, New England referees in general are very slow to give cards compare to the rest of the country. So why is this the case?  First, several of these conferences are assigned by the same individual (NESCAC and GNAC).  With respect to the NESCAC, the coaches get what they want.  They do not want players suspended for card accumulation, and they do not want referees who give out a lot of cards on their matches.  The coaches are very influential in picking the assignor.  NESCAC games in particular are perceived to be among the best college games in the country, and referees want to be chosen to do those games, so they adjust their behavior accordingly.  A second complicating factor is that within New England, states such as Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine do not have a broad base of highly competitive youth and amateur leagues that are crucial to referee development.  Massachusetts and Connecticut do have this, but these referees are incentivized by #1 above.  Third, while the NCAA can and does issue points of emphasis and provide referee education, the bottom line is that referees are more concerned about pleasing their regular season assignor than an organization that only assigns post-season games.

Having reffed that is absolutely true as to ref selection and location in rural areas.  If a coach does not like you when you call a tight game, you are not going to be selected again. Coaches complain and assignors listen.  If you are not in a heavily populated area, you have fewer referees available.

[camosfan]

The refs in Vermont are the worst I have seen.

[College Soccer Observer]

Any you normally get out of state guys on the conference games.  Can you image what Midd gets for their midweek home games?

[jknezek]

The last time the final four was held anywhere as far west as Las Vegas was in 1991 at UC San Diego, so if 33 years is too frequent for you than you might as well just bar holding the final four in the far west altogether (and perhaps give up on the idea that DIII can have a real "national" championship).  If your concern is about holding the final four in a city without D3 programs, then the last time that happened was in 2015 in Kansas City, so it's been almost a decade.  There is one school a little over 2 hours (Westminster) and a few others within a 3-4 hour radius, but none in Kansas City, MO itself or anywhere closer.  The closest DIII to Las Vegas is Redlands at 3 hours and 17 minutes (and that's if you aren't pushing the speed limit  ), and La Verne is 3 hours and 23 minutes, so it's not that much different than Kansas City.  If your concern is cost, Las Vegas is probably a cheaper flight and hotels than a lot of locations, especially Roanoke.  It's also easier to get non-stop flights that don't require you to take a long bus ride.  It might even be cheaper to fly all four teams there than many locations where only three teams needed to fly.

It would be more expensive for parents and fans from other parts of the country to get to Vegas than somewhere on the east coast, but Occidental fans traveled to San Antonio and to Amherst(!) in large numbers, St. Olaf fans were in Salem, and Cal Lutheran women's fans even made it to Salem, which is a pretty significant trip.  After all, if EnmoreCat could travel from Australia to Salem, VA, I'm sure he would come next year to Vegas!  My guess is more than a few of these parents and college students have made trips to Las Vegas voluntarily before (purely for educational purposes, of course).

The reality is that DIII schools are part of the college ecosystem that has been the most financially vulnerable and, while schools have been closing everywhere, the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, the traditional base of DIII schools, have had more than their fair share.  The one possible avenue to shore up membership is from NAIA schools in the midwest and far west.  I know some Arizona schools that have been toying with idea of moving to DIII and this is the kind of thing that helps them to demonstrate their commitment to the area.  It's good for DIII's survival to grow in the west and this is probably worth a shot to see how it goes.

I don't have a problem playing it in LA, there are plenty of D3 schools in the area and the SCIAC would be a fine host conference. Similarly there are some locations even in the Northwest Conference I think could host, certainly the weather wouldn't be that much different to Salem so long as you stayed coastal. I have a problem with Vegas. I also didn't much care for Kansas City as a venue. I think D3 should play in D3 supported areas. LA is fine, I think teams out west should catch a break now and then and it's good to waive the flag around the country. I have no problem with championships moving around. Salem, as we both pointed out, has it's own problems. I met some St. Olaf and Cal Lutheran parents in my hotel and had coffee with EnmoreCat. It was great to meet those folks, and I have no problem with the tournament being anywhere there is some support for D3. Las Vegas, and KC, simply aren't it in my opinion.

[kevdog]

Refs and Cards Part 2

As you can see by my prior post, New England referees in general are very slow to give cards compare to the rest of the country. So why is this the case?  First, several of these conferences are assigned by the same individual (NESCAC and GNAC).  With respect to the NESCAC, the coaches get what they want.  They do not want players suspended for card accumulation, and they do not want referees who give out a lot of cards on their matches.  The coaches are very influential in picking the assignor.  NESCAC games in particular are perceived to be among the best college games in the country, and referees want to be chosen to do those games, so they adjust their behavior accordingly.  A second complicating factor is that within New England, states such as Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine do not have a broad base of highly competitive youth and amateur leagues that are crucial to referee development.  Massachusetts and Connecticut do have this, but these referees are incentivized by #1 above.  Third, while the NCAA can and does issue points of emphasis and provide referee education, the bottom line is that referees are more concerned about pleasing their regular season assignor than an organization that only assigns post-season games.

Let's hope the Massachusetts State Police are more judicious giving cautions

9) The breakdown lane is just another lane to use to get off the exit and is highly frowned upon if not used especially during rush hour traffic.

[Bucket]

The refs in Vermont are the worst I have seen.

FWIW, 75 percent of the refs "in Vermont" you see for NESCAC games come up from Massachusetts.