2023 NCAA Tournament

[PaulNewman]

I lost my best post of the year in the latest outage so I'll do an abbreviated version.

I'm sure, whether pro or con, we're pretty much done with Amherst talk, but as we tidy things up I have an observation and a question.

I agree with jknezek about Amherst's sustained, remarkable success for at least a decade and a half making sense.  My observation is about what seems like the pattern dynamics on the board...Allowing for significant carryover effect, every year the antipathy towards the Mammoths grows as the season progresses and reaches peak crescendo level over the last two to three weeks until there is close to a unanimous verdict about the program and a desire for Amherst to get knocked out (excluding of course Mammoths Nation and some NESCAC diehards).  Then some of us (like me in some previous years) see a couple of press conferences with Serpone dripping in charisma combined with direct witness observations of gracious, empathic encounters with players on the opposing teams, and especially players on other teams that were in some degree of a recruitment process with him.  And then there's a feeling in the air of maybe we (and I mean a collective we) went a little far and we conclude with a bit of a correction.  Until the next year verifies everything again and rinse/repeat.

The question is about exactly how expansive Serpone's recruiting goes and how many prospects believe they are truly in the mix to get a spot at Amherst (and I'm raising this with no intent for anyone to go into the weeds on 'tips' and such).  Now I assume that Serpone gets most of what he wants (again, aside from any major admissions issues), but he may miss on some.  One of the announcers noted during the W&L game that he has a neighbor who picked W&L over Princeton (no athletics aspect was implied).  In any case, I would guess Serpone receives inquiries well into the hundreds (or more).  How many does he seriously get involved with, pursue, keep the mutual interest going, etc?  100?  50?  25?  And is there a point when he releases the ones under heavy consideration who he does not offer in the end?
Notwithstanding what I just wrote above, his yield has got to be very high.  Nevertheless, I've heard too many opponent parents publicly and/or privately make a point of noting Serpone's positive embrace and interactions with their sons after games to just discount that.  How does the process unfold concluding with his final selection of 6-8 players each year?  And he can't be the only coach in D3 who recruits hard and who would embrace a recruit who went elsewhere, right?  What's his hook or pitch?  How does he convince a kid that the combo of Amherst athletics and academics won't be too much?

Charisma often is confused with and/or masquerades as character....and is incredibly addictive and difficult to resist.

Lastly, anyone have insight they can share about the Nuhu injury?  In live action on video it did not look like much at all and the announcers surmised that he was milking it and/or trying to draw a card on the St Olaf player, but then they would pan over to the trainer seeming to work with him and he never returned.  Some odd substitutions for Amherst in that final game...and of course one that paid off handsomely.  Curious about ten Cate being relegated to a minor role and also Cubeddu who is so dangerous (but the latter did seem like he was a little banged up).

[PaulNewman]

If you haven't listened to the St Olaf press conference I would recommend it if only for the contrast.  The HC must be like 26, maybe 27, still can't believe he even has the job....and maybe, maybe about four months from now will realize he won a national title. 

IF D3soccer.com still did their awards I would be very curious to see who got tabbed NCOY.

[jknezek]

I lost my best post of the year in the latest outage so I'll do an abbreviated version.

I'm sure, whether pro or con, we're pretty much done with Amherst talk, but as we tidy things up I have an observation and a question.

I agree with jknezek about Amherst's sustained, remarkable success for at least a decade and a half making sense.  My observation is about what seems like the pattern dynamics on the board...Allowing for significant carryover effect, every year the antipathy towards the Mammoths grows as the season progresses and reaches peak crescendo level over the last two to three weeks until there is close to a unanimous verdict about the program and a desire for Amherst to get knocked out (excluding of course Mammoths Nation and some NESCAC diehards).  Then some of us (like me in some previous years) see a couple of press conferences with Serpone dripping in charisma combined with direct witness observations of gracious, empathic encounters with players on the opposing teams, and especially players on other teams that were in some degree of a recruitment process with him.  And then there's a feeling in the air of maybe we (and I mean a collective we) went a little far and we conclude with a bit of a correction.  Until the next year verifies everything again and rinse/repeat.

The question is about exactly how expansive Serpone's recruiting goes and how many prospects believe they are truly in the mix to get a spot at Amherst (and I'm raising this with no intent for anyone to go into the weeds on 'tips' and such).  Now I assume that Serpone gets most of what he wants (again, aside from any major admissions issues), but he may miss on some.  One of the announcers noted during the W&L game that he has a neighbor who picked W&L over Princeton (no athletics aspect was implied).  In any case, I would guess Serpone receives inquiries well into the hundreds (or more).  How many does he seriously get involved with, pursue, keep the mutual interest going, etc?  100?  50?  25?  And is there a point when he releases the ones under heavy consideration who he does not offer in the end?
Notwithstanding what I just wrote above, his yield has got to be very high.  Nevertheless, I've heard too many opponent parents publicly and/or privately make a point of noting Serpone's positive embrace and interactions with their sons after games to just discount that.  How does the process unfold concluding with his final selection of 6-8 players each year?  And he can't be the only coach in D3 who recruits hard and who would embrace a recruit who went elsewhere, right?  What's his hook or pitch?  How does he convince a kid that the combo of Amherst athletics and academics won't be too much?

Charisma often is confused with and/or masquerades as character....and is incredibly addictive and difficult to resist.

Lastly, anyone have insight they can share about the Nuhu injury?  In live action on video it did not look like much at all and the announcers surmised that he was milking it and/or trying to draw a card on the St Olaf player, but then they would pan over to the trainer seeming to work with him and he never returned.  Some odd substitutions for Amherst in that final game...and of course one that paid off handsomely.  Curious about ten Cate being relegated to a minor role and also Cubeddu who is so dangerous (but the latter did seem like he was a little banged up).

There's a bunch of different questions in there, so I'm going to give it a shot.

1) We tend to vilify Amherst most when they play rivalries, right? Most of the antics we were distressed about took place against fellow NESCAC schools and especially Mid. So while it's possible (even likely) they may meet a fellow NESCAC in the Elite 8, Final 4, and even Finals, it gets progressively less likely. So the behavior that is most annoying tails off as they go deeper most years. And since they tend to go deep into the playoffs most years, the last game or two is more likely a team without the kind of history that leads to the worst behavior.

I'd also say that by the time you reach the Final Four or Finals, the neutral site makes the crowds much less of an issue for riling players. This year might have been a little different with the proximity to W&L leading to a lot of students lining the fence at the bottom of the stands. But with less crowd, there's generally less provocation. Also, at Kerr Stadium, there are no fans close to the benches, as all seating is across the field and college security moved along anyone who stopped to close to the team benches on that side of the field. So that would also temper the antics and effect of heckling as the benches are not accessible to the crowd at all. It's a good setup in my opinion.

2) Most of the teams that go deep in the NCAAs are probably pulling from similar recruiting files, so it's not unusual that Serpone would have interacted with many of the players at one point or another. Of the people that I talked with who had kids recruited by him, they didn't say how long it went on, but I imagine some were brief encounters at events and camps and some exchanged emails, and some went the distance before the player either chose somewhere else or didn't get through the pipeline.

3) I think the number Serpone "recruits", by the generous definition of "recruits" essentially as talks to at an event or camp, or emails or calls, is probably very, very large starting with sophomores and finally culminating 2 years later with just a few that matriculate. But over that period, I'm sure he speaks with hundreds in each class, if not more. So if some casual contact or just a face to face or two constitutes recruiting, I'd say most players at the top 2/3rds of NESCAC schools, and a significant number of others that end up at the more elite Liberal Art schools with a chance to go deep in the tournament in D3, were "recruited" at one point or another by Serpone.

I suspect he remembers them, especially the ones good enough to end up on teams that he faces in the Sweet Sixteen and beyond, and he seems to make sure to get in touch with them after games.

4) We don't usually talk about coaches too much, or watch their behavior as closely as we watch Serpone's, but I saw Singleton talk to and congratulate many of the Amherst players after the game as well. I think this is pretty common behavior, we just don't much remark on it because we don't much remark on any other coach's behavior.

5) No idea on the last as I did not watch the final.

[Another Mom]

A few obsevations re amherst recruiting.

- Coach Elias at Middlebury told parents he gets 50 prereads from admissions. No reason to think that's different at Amherst. I doubt Serpone only makes 6-8 offers; that is, I don't think he has a 100% yield. Although undoubtedly the yield is very high.

- kids in the mix at Amherst are unlikely to worry that the academics are too much for them. They have high grades and board scores in a rigorous program.

- I would guess that Serpone has 75 - 100 kids in the mix thinking they have a shot at an offer, but that's just a guess. And gets thousands, not hundreds, of kids reaching out.

- Serpone is very charismatic, for sure. Although, with hindsight/perspective Amherst wouldn't have been a good fit for my son (pregame, he prefers to close his eyes and turn inward (you can see him in a recent W&L lockerroom post doing just that) and was put off by the rowdy shouting/banging/swearing that goes on in the Amherst pregame lockerroom. He also strongly prefers the W&L style of play over the Amherst style. Yet with all that said, if Amherst made him an offer, he would have accepted.  Recruiting is a little like courtship, and Serpone makes the recruit feel special, and wanted. And that's head- turning, especially when you are 16 or 17 years old.

Some of the things he did, which was different from other schools: held invitation only Junior days for recruits (a day long extravaganza selling the program). On other occasions, Invited recruits to eat lunch with the team, sit in on the pregame lockerroom, watch the game. His assistant coach called my son every week, and Serpone called him every 2 weeks. And this was a kid who was *not* their top recruit!

As for when he cuts recruits loose, I don't know. My son had other offers, and when he got his then 1st choice, he accepted and took himself out of the running at other schools.

[PaulNewman]

Thanks, jknezek.  Not sure I buy #1 but I don't have more to say about it either.

Regarding #4, it is true that probably no coach gets more discussed than Serpone.  But there are coaches, including Singleton, who do get mentioned often.  And why does Serpone get more "credit" for reaching out to opposing players?  For me, that's all part of the rehabililation process wrt to him after he's been lambasted for several weeks in a row.  It's like stlawus' point about giving special credit for what most consider just normal, decent, expected behavior.

[PaulNewman]

A few obsevations re amherst recruiting.

- Coach Elias at Middlebury told parents he gets 50 prereads from admissions. No reason to think that's different at Amherst. I doubt Serpone only makes 6-8 offers; that is, I don't think he has a 100% yield. Although undoubtedly the yield is very high.

- kids in the mix at Amherst are unlikely to worry that the academics are too much for them. They have high grades and board scores in a rigorous program.

- I would guess that Serpone has 75 - 100 kids in the mix thinking they have a shot at an offer, but that's just a guess. And gets thousands, not hundreds, of kids reaching out.

- Serpone is very charismatic, for sure. Although, with hindsight/perspective Amherst wouldn't have been a good fit for my son (pregame, he prefers to close his eyes and turn inward (you can see him in a recent W&L lockerroom post doing just that) and was put off by the rowdy shouting/banging/swearing that goes on in the Amherst pregame lockerroom. He also strongly prefers the W&L style of play over the Amherst style. Yet with all that said, if Amherst made him an offer, he would have accepted.  Recruiting is a little like courtship, and Serpone makes the recruit feel special, and wanted. And that's head- turning, especially when you are 16 or 17 years old.

As for when he cuts recruits loose, I don't know. My son had other offers, and when he got his then 1st choice, he accepted and took himself out of the running at other schools.

A little confused.  You said your son would have accepted Amherst notwithstanding things he didn't care for but ultimately chose his #1 anyway....so #1 among actual offers...so Serpone did or did not cut him loose so to speak?

[jknezek]

Thanks, jknezek.  Not sure I buy #1 but I don't have more to say about it either.

Regarding #4, it is true that probably no coach gets more discussed than Serpone.  But there are coaches, including Singleton, who do get mentioned often.  And why does Serpone get more "credit" for reaching out to opposing players?  For me, that's all part of the rehabililation process wrt to him after he's been lambasted for several weeks in a row.  It's like stlawus' point about giving special credit for what most consider just normal, decent, expected behavior.

I don't feel like he gets "credit" for it, I just think people mention it because they've lambasted him for other things and sometimes you want to provide a little balance. Serpone isn't evil incarnate, he's a D3 soccer coach who I think allows his team more questionable behavior than most. I think he models that behavior by generally jawing at refs non-stop and encouraging a much more animated bench, turning a seeming blind eye when they go, what I consider, is too far.

So yeah, when you say something less than flattering, like I just did, it's not unusual to try and temper it. At least for me it is. It's not giving credit so much as it's just providing a bit of balance.

I stick by my game summary. I didn't see much from Amherst against W&L that seemed unusual other than their physical play, all of which I felt fell along the lines of fouls but not cheap or ugly. I think the ref should deal with it and disincentivize that style of play, but they don't seem to want to do that, so Amherst gets to play that way and they are very successful at doing so.

[SierraFD3soccer]

This is very, very cool.  Had to be late at night and/or early morning!

https://twitter.com/StOlafAthletics/status/1731575933528576285

[PaulNewman]

Thanks, jknezek.  Not sure I buy #1 but I don't have more to say about it either.

Regarding #4, it is true that probably no coach gets more discussed than Serpone.  But there are coaches, including Singleton, who do get mentioned often.  And why does Serpone get more "credit" for reaching out to opposing players?  For me, that's all part of the rehabililation process wrt to him after he's been lambasted for several weeks in a row.  It's like stlawus' point about giving special credit for what most consider just normal, decent, expected behavior.

I don't feel like he gets "credit" for it, I just think people mention it because they've lambasted him for other things and sometimes you want to provide a little balance. Serpone isn't evil incarnate, he's a D3 soccer coach who I think allows his team more questionable behavior than most. I think he models that behavior by generally jawing at refs non-stop and encouraging a much more animated bench, turning a seeming blind eye when they go, what I consider, is too far.

So yeah, when you say something less than flattering, like I just did, it's not unusual to try and temper it. At least for me it is. It's not giving credit so much as it's just providing a bit of balance.

I stick by my game summary. I didn't see much from Amherst against W&L that seemed unusual other than their physical play, all of which I felt fell along the lines of fouls but not cheap or ugly. I think the ref should deal with it and disincentivize that style of play, but they don't seem to want to do that, so Amherst gets to play that way and they are very successful at doing so.

Do you think Singleton would have suspended players for very aggressive masturbation gestures to a crowd of fans?  I mean, maybe some of us made it too big of a deal.  Maybe it's not a big deal.

[PaulNewman]

This is very, very cool.  Had to be late at night and/or early morning!

https://twitter.com/StOlafAthletics/status/1731575933528576285

Super cool...thanks for finding and sharing it.

[jknezek]

Thanks, jknezek.  Not sure I buy #1 but I don't have more to say about it either.

Regarding #4, it is true that probably no coach gets more discussed than Serpone.  But there are coaches, including Singleton, who do get mentioned often.  And why does Serpone get more "credit" for reaching out to opposing players?  For me, that's all part of the rehabililation process wrt to him after he's been lambasted for several weeks in a row.  It's like stlawus' point about giving special credit for what most consider just normal, decent, expected behavior.

I don't feel like he gets "credit" for it, I just think people mention it because they've lambasted him for other things and sometimes you want to provide a little balance. Serpone isn't evil incarnate, he's a D3 soccer coach who I think allows his team more questionable behavior than most. I think he models that behavior by generally jawing at refs non-stop and encouraging a much more animated bench, turning a seeming blind eye when they go, what I consider, is too far.

So yeah, when you say something less than flattering, like I just did, it's not unusual to try and temper it. At least for me it is. It's not giving credit so much as it's just providing a bit of balance.

I stick by my game summary. I didn't see much from Amherst against W&L that seemed unusual other than their physical play, all of which I felt fell along the lines of fouls but not cheap or ugly. I think the ref should deal with it and disincentivize that style of play, but they don't seem to want to do that, so Amherst gets to play that way and they are very successful at doing so.

Do you think Singleton would have suspended players for very aggressive masturbation gestures to a crowd of fans?  I mean, maybe some of us made it too big of a deal.  Maybe it's not a big deal.

That's a question for someone with a player on the team. I don't know Coach Singleton or his discipline policy. I'd like to think so. I think it's a big deal.

[Freddyfud]

After the final during the awards I heard an announcement of what I thought was an All Final Four team.  I believe 4 players from each team were recognized because they were there.  I'm curious about the full team (if it indeed does exist) but can't seem to final any info.  Does anyone know where this list might be?

[irapthor]

The announcers during the W&L-Amherst game commented that there were a lot of "extracurriculars" behind the play that video viewers could not see.  Anyone have any insight about this or know what they may be been talking about?

Hey Paul, since I was one of the announcers, we were referencing the off-the-ball physicality, including some contact and jersey tugs. Nothing you would not expect to see in an emotionally-charged game when everyone is tired and there is so much on the line.

[SierraFD3soccer]

My son's HS sophomore/junior years 2016 Serpone and his assist. contacted him.  I think it was first his assist and later Serpone.  He was one of the first to contact him.  Son had reached out to coaches showing up at his tournaments while playing for a top level club. Also with his grades/scores they were interested in to have conversations. Son liked his assist. and Serpone (also they had just on a nat'l champ).  We have relatives up in the Amherst area and so he went to one of their camps.  Amherst was one of the D3 schools he was interested in.

Serpone had an one day ID camp at I think Episcopal High in Vir. and son went to that for about 10 min.  He dived for a shot and his 2/3rds of his ring finger went the wrong way.  So we spent the next several hours in the ER making him look less of a freak. While still some interest on both sides, things kind of slowed down and son was looking at D1 more closely at that time.

Conclusion - son liked Serpone and assist.  They were very personable.

He actually liked Singleton better who matched son's overall temperament.

[d4_Pace]

My experience with the Serpone recruiting process and subsequent communication is as follows:

I had an atypical recruiting experience as I was exclusively looking at DI programs and was committed to one for a while. After that commitment fell through for various reasons, I decided to open up my search to the more academic DIII programs and Amherst was naturally one of the programs on that list. I knew nothing about the NESCAC, the DIII soccer hierarchy, or really Amherst other than my dad saying it was a good school. This was relatively late in the recruiting process due to the previous commitment but after reaching out Serpone recruited me really hard. We spoke at least weekly over the late summer/early full leading in to me scheduling an official recruiting visit. I was scheduled to fly across the country on Friday evening for the weekend visit. On Tuesday/Wednesday of that week, he called cancelling the visit saying they had run my academic profile and I wouldn't be able to get in to the school. Now that is certainly possible, I know the process is a bit of a crap shoot but it seemed a little suspicious given I was being recruited at schools of similar standards and never had any issues. What was frustrating was that I only found this out 48 hours in advance, causing my parents to have to lose out on the price of a flight.  Therefore, even before arriving to the NESCAC, I certainly had no love lost for Amherst and always circled the game on the schedule.

While playing Serpone he would constantly talk to me and ask how I was doing, literally during the middle of the game. I'd be taking a throw in in front of the bench and he'd say 'Hey D4pace good to see you, you're playing well this year, Congrats." Given my preconcieved beliefs I always interpreted it as a bit of gamesmanship, but maybe he was just trying to be nice. I never gave him the benefit of the doubt but thats for others to decide for themselves.